2016 U.S. Presidential Elections: The Circus Is In Full Swing

[Lord Brutus]

You realize that some of that list describes massacres of whites by native Americans and some describe the wars of the Spanish. And that was just the first two I happened upon. Yes, Wounded Knee was a rarity in that it involved killing women and children, why I don't know.

You might have 50 on your list. Over what period of time?

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

forum legend

 

[Lord Brutus]

Sorry, that's not a period of time.

 

[Adorno]

You realize that some of that list describes massacres of whites by native Americans and some describe the wars of the Spanish. And that was just the first two I happened upon. Yes, Wounded Knee was a rarity in that it involved killing women and children, why I don't know.

You might have 50 on your list. Over what period of time?

I thought you knew all this, since you said Wounded Knee was very rare.
Here is another list of various massacres and killings - by both sides.

List of Indian massacres in North America - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You argued that the relationship between natives and settlers was mainly peaceful and killings were rare.
I don't think that's accurate based on reports.

 

[Lord Brutus]

Leaving out the ones involving the Spanish leaves about 80. over the period of time mentioned leaves one every six years or so over the totality of the US territory. Of these about 14 involved killing women and children that's about once every 40 years or so. Not all occurred in the same location, obviously, oh and some, I see involved the French. I must insist that the French were acting on their own recognizance.
And a large portion from the Mid-West were caused by Pontiac's rebellion and the response, so not really massacres in the traditional sense.
So, it looks like an average of once every 50 years or so, somewhere in the US, settlers and native Americans engaged in hostilities of a substantial nature.
I should note that even close to where my family settled, there were hostilities between native Americans and settlers caused by Director Willem Kieft of the Dutch West India Company, for which Kieft was recalled and replaced while Jacob Bronck when to the natives and restored the peace.

Look, Adorno, I get your concern. And I'm not trying to minimize the involvement of Americans in genocide and other atrocities. But 40 years of peace is not cancelled by one or two acts of war. My own family was involved in war, according to their own records, on three occasions when Iroquois raiding parties attacked their local allies, the Lenni Lenape. My family fought on the side of the local tribe according to the treaty they signed when they first settled the area.

 

[Nega-Brutus]

Bear in mind that I have dedicated some of my life to progressive causes in Germany and have a vested interest or even hope in making it a better place and believing that it is a good place with good people. Characterizing the country which has shaped me and which has formed my ideals in some sort of absolute manner as imperial, genocidal, etc. is actual autism
You don't have to compromise your beliefs that Germany has a darker history, you just have to be charitable where you can, and be more prospective.

Holy **** even my copypasta is based af.

 

[Antoine de Saint-Exupéry]

I reject the idea that the prime motive of every immigrant after 1500 was the total destruction of the native people.

i never implied anything close.

viewed the native people as nothing more than rocks to be moved out of the way or trees to be cut down to allow free passage.

you are literally describing genocide

I doubt the Americans had developed an ideology of getting rid of the Navajo in a systematic way just because they were Navajo, their ideology was pragmatic greed (as is today, ha!).

while in some cases this is true, that makes it no less a genocide. in other cases they literally explicitly had the goal of getting rid of natives in a systemic way because they were considered subhuman, which, yes, also genocide.

I've seen claims that tens of thousands of native Americans were forced into slavery in South Carolina alone.

if you're referring to me, no, i did not in fact say that. i did ask you to actually read the posts, but here we are.

what i said was "tens of thousands of native slaves were shipped out of florida and the carolinas" and "primarily during the spanish period". 20-30 thousand from florida, another 10-15 thousand or so from the carolinas.

this enslavement of native americans directly led to several wars, in the carolinas and otherwise. in the carolinas around the 1720s, it is estimated around 10% of the surviving native population was enslaved by colonists locally (around 1500-2000 of 15000-20000).

as a result of the increasing turmoil and wars that resulted from it, the reduced numbers of natives, and the increase in african slavery, the organised slave trade of native american slaves in the region died down around the 1730s, but both irregular enslavement in the region and organised and irregular enslavement in the rest of the country took longer to wind down.

precise numbers for the number of enslaved native americans in north america, not including mexico, are difficult to determine - due to native slaves not often being specifically included in data - but estimates range from 250-350 thousand. this, again, is genocide.

In 1700 the native American population of South Carolina was about 5,000 total

strange, how low that number is. i wonder what happened to the rest of them in the preceding years.

oh. the genocide. right.

Also, I disavow any responsibility for what the Spanish did in Florida, Texas, Mexico or California.

you're not personally responsible for any of what the english and later the usa did to the natives either, that doesn't mean it wasn't still genocide.

 

[Lord Brutus]

Monty, we about got this hashed out. We don't need you mucking it up. " viewed the native people as nothing more than rocks to be moved out of the way or trees to be cut down to allow free passage. " I literally described it as genocide. I also said not to include any mention of the Spanish in any of your exaggerations. The hostility of the Spanish toward native Americans is well known and even caused conflict between Americans and native Americans in Florida. Also native slaves from South Carolina in the tens of thousands, you say you didn't say that and now you said it again.
This is almost worked out. We don't need you coming in, ranting. And don't include the French either.
So, leave the Spanish genocide out of this too.

Did you even look at the charts Adorno found? Probably not because they conflict with your rants.

 

[Antoine de Saint-Exupéry]

i am not ranting, and i will thank you to stop attacking me in that fashion. it's getting old.

it's a perfectly calm description of enslavement of native americans in southeast north america.

" viewed the native people as nothing more than rocks to be moved out of the way or trees to be cut down to allow free passage. " I literally described it as genocide

i'm sorry, but it did not sound like that to me when you said:

I'm not even sure I would apply the term genocide to the horrors visited upon the Navajo over a period of decades. The people seeking fortunes in coal, oil and uranium from Navajo land viewed the native people as nothing more than rocks to be moved out of the way or trees to be cut down to allow free passage.

something about "i'm not even sure i would apply the term genocide to that" does not, to me, sound like "describing it as genocide". quite the opposite, in fact. i suppose it's possible that's an error on my part but it seems pretty clear to me.

I also said not to include any mention of the Spanish in any of your exaggerations.

they are not exaggerations, and i only mentioned the spanish again to clarify that no, i did not in fact say "south carolina in the tens of thousands".

speaking of which:

Also native slaves from South Carolina in the tens of thousands, you say you didn't say that and now you said it again.

no, actually, i didn't. again with the not reading posts thing.

i said "the carolinas" because that number applies to the entire "province of carolina", since we are speaking primarily about a period before the separation. this includes more than just south carolina, which you should very well know. how many of those 10-15 thousand were shipped out of south carolina specifically i cannot tell you, but that's also not relevant because i never said a word about south carolina specifically.

and you can stop trying to deflect by talking about the spanish genocide, too. the spanish colonisers being responsible for genocide does not mean the english colonisers were not also responsible for genocide, a fact which has been sufficiently made clear in previous responses by myself and others.

edit: oh, and:

Did you even look at the charts Adorno found? Probably not because they conflict with your rants.

you clearly didn't actually read that wikipedia entry either, because no, it doesn't in fact conflict with what i am saying.

the actual chart explicitly contains only "some" cases and is very much not exhaustive, and the preceding paragraph mentions "more than 370 massacres" in 30 years in california alone, let alone the rest of the country.

you can take your nonsense of "it looks like an average of once every 50 years or so" and stuff it.

 

[Bluehawk]

Go easy on the senile, Monty.

 

[Lord Brutus]

Stuff it up your cloaca, bluebird.

Monty, I get it. You feel shame over Nazi genocide. I feel shame over American genocide but let's not try to equate the two.

 

[Antonis]

Sometimes, I wonder, man, if you're not am old guy, but rather, just the average millennial neckbeard running the long con on us.

 

[Mad Vader]

Best answers: 0.

the actual chart explicitly contains only "some" cases and is very much not exhaustive, and the preceding paragraph mentions "more than 370 massacres" in 30 years in california alone, let alone the rest of the country.

 

[kurczak]

I genuinely miss his tweets They always gave me a good chuckle and brightened my day. He was an idiot savant of the medium.

 

[Antoine de Saint-Exupéry]

Monty, I get it. You feel shame over Nazi genocide. I feel shame over American genocide but let's not try to equate the two.

nobody is equating the two (again, please do actually read the posts, it helps, i promise), and shame doesn't factor into it at all.

i am glad you are now admitting it's more of a thing than you were willing to admit before. progress continues apace. you might even actually learn some history before too long if you keep making concessions like this.

 

[Lord Brutus]

What's the point in assigning blame anyway? When two disparate cultures collide, the one with superior technology always takes advantage of the other unless they are especially benevolent.

 

[Antoine de Saint-Exupéry]

even if that were true, that's not a justification. dispelling the myths of genocide denial is important because doing genocide is still, in fact, bad, and not somehow good or normal as that implies.

 

[Adorno]

Criminal pardoning criminals.

Trump pardons dozens in final hours, including ex-aide Steve Bannon

Donald Trump issues pardons and commutations for more than 140 people in his final hours as president.

www.bbc.com

 

[Mad Vader]

Let's face it, worse was expected, like pardoning himself and his family (similar to Putin's future immunity) which would have made constitutional lawyers quite busy for some time.
Apart from Bannon, probably many of the rest either bought their pardons from Trump's courtiers or Trump deemed them important enough to owe him a favor. The bigger damage with pardons was done earlier, with pardons for Flynn, Manafort and Stone (political allies that went to prison not betraying their mafia boss), Kushner's dad (the home porn enthusiast), and the Blackwater shooters (ideological, so similar to Obama's Manning pardon).

 

[kurczak]

Taking bribes from Kwame Kilpatrick, a convicted mobster and """alleged""" stripper-killer Donald just can't stop, won't stop.