2016 U.S. Presidential Elections: The Circus Is In Full Swing

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What I was going for with the Bill Clinton bit is that at the end he caved and admitted that he had lied. Trump would not have done that, and he would have used everything in his power to label anyone who said otherwise as "fake news". That, and the fact that what was a big scandal at the time seems laughable compared to what we are facing today.
 

kurczak

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I get that you are inclined to ignore salient points of the discussion but hold your Fascist instincts in check.
I liked it better when we could banter without going too far. Let me pull a little cringe in my "defense".

AS SOMEONE WHO LITERALLY LIVED FOR ALMOST 18 YEARS IN AN UNIRONIC DICTATORSHIP WHERE THEY LITERALLY SHOT YOU TO DEATH IF YOU TRIED TO CROSS THEIR BARBED WIRE FENCES AND THE SECRET POLICE HARASSED AND ARRESTIED MY FAMILY MEMBERS FOR NO REASON OTHER THAN WRONGTHINK

I'm a little worried about the "with us or against us" mentality that seems to take root in the West these days. I used to admire you people for being able to agree to disagree and just get on with it. Seems like instead of us raising to your level, you are stooping down to ours. It's ridiculous. I don't even like Trump, but just because I refuse to have a full blown Trump Deragnement Syndrome and dismiss a half of America as racist, fascist, kaykaykay deplorables, I'm now a fascist or something to that effect.
What I was going for with the Bill Clinton bit is that at the end he caved and admitted that he had lied. Trump would not have done that, and he would have used everything in his power to label anyone who said otherwise as "fake news". That, and the fact that what was a big scandal at the time seems laughable compared to what we are facing today.
Yea and my point was that Clinton committed a blatant and obvious felony and got away with it, so the comparison doesn't work so great imo.
 
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Yea and my point was that Clinton committed a blatant and obvious felony and got away with it, so the comparison doesn't work so great imo.
Right, but Trump has committed so many felonies that it's not even possible to keep track of them. Granted, he was not president for all of them and he definitely is better at hiding them than Clinton was (practice helps with that I suppose). And let's not forget that Clinton wasn't actually trying to hide crimes when he lied.
 

Lord Brutus

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There's still no reason we can't agree to disagree as long as you leave your EuroThink out of it. Clinton lied under oath about receiving blowjobs. I'm not aware that national security was threatened by this. Three people who voted to convict him did the same thing, well one lied about giving blowjobs. Where's the justice there? There is no moral high ground to be found here. Every single word out of Trump's mouth is a lie, your comparison to Clinton doesn't work well. Clinton told the truth at least part of the time.

This just in, from the Czech Republic.

Milos Zeman, a right-wing populist, was one of the few European leaders to back Mr Trump ahead of the 2016 vote, but he failed to endorse him this year before the US president’s failed re-election bid against Joe Biden.

Mr Trump has subsequently refused to concede and has baselessly claimed his wide margin of defeat was due to mass election fraud, of which there is no evidence.

His campaign has also launched a series of lawsuits intended to disrupt the presidential transition to a Biden administration.


“I personally believe that it would be much more reasonable to give up, not to be embarrassing, and allow the new president to take office,” Mr Zeman said of Mr Trump on Thursday, in an interview with a regional news website.
 
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Anarion

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Explaining why "tolerating disagreement" in the West is increasingly difficult is not hard. For one it's a paradox of liberalism that you must tolerate every personal opinion as it were, even if it's in principle anti-liberal. More than that, liberalism posits that all men are equal, but it's a very pro forma equality; "In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread." as Anatole France, a liberal, quipped about bourgeois equality. Not only that, the international world order has created loser nations from which people yearn to leave and come to the prosperous imperial core, whose populations protest when they come. This same population of the core also don't necessarily gain from empire as the elites do, another reason for them to be discontent.

The causes of the polarization are material and there are no easy solutions of making people talk to each other again or whatever. You can certainly practice being charitable with your polar opposite personally but that won't change anything in aggregate.

There's not ample room in the intelligentsia in the West, there's elite overproduction in the universities so you get a big class of people who excpected better than their lot. These people compete viciously to be the most moral and deserving of a paying position. These people are responsible for a very large amount of the culture war controversy online, and they're also very active on the streets in there's an uprising. Some of them, with egalitarian motivations, try to revive the specter of working class politics and identify with it despite having very little in common with any kind of real working class. Others are disgusted by the culture of the former and critique them, some of them actually gaining from that in a real sense since it's not hard to find a sponsor if your cause is anti-egalitarian. A lot of the **** stirring everyone's constantly fretting about are caused by these people.

In the end though, it was bound to happen that the post-WW2 order would start fraying after there was no great enemy any more. Now we have the world of no one to vie with and only the "end of history", a world ruled by the US, but which theyuntil recently insisted had no imperial project behind it although they also insisted they had the right to intervene and topple any regime they found objectionable. Where elites have no alternative to compete against and thus no incentive to care about the welfare of the masses. Where democratically elected governments are increasingly powerless and largely cosmetic, while the real power resides in business.

I would add by the way that it's no given that we're able to enjoy lots of consumer good under capitalism, and in many capitalist countries laboru protections of different sorts that many probably take for granted. They were very much contingtent and the result of labour militancy in the 20th century forcing these sorts of concessions through to prevent a revolution. Prior to WW2 being an average worker was miserable. Why do you think communism was popular back then? Well, I guess you don't think that because you never knew that was even the case.
 

kurczak

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Right, but Trump has committed so many felonies that it's not even possible to keep track of them. Granted, he was not president for all of them and he definitely is better at hiding them than Clinton was (practice helps with that I suppose). And let's not forget that Clinton wasn't actually trying to hide crimes when he lied.
I thought I was supposed to be the whataboutist Slav???
There's still no reason we can't agree to disagree as long as you leave your EuroThink out of it. Clinton lied under oath about receiving blowjobs. I'm not aware that national security was threatened by this. Three people who voted to convict him did the same thing, well one lied about giving blowjobs. Where's the justice there? There is no moral high ground to be found here. Every single word out of Trump's mouth is a lie, your comparison to Clinton doesn't work well. Clinton told the truth at least part of the time.
They didn't lie under oath.
This just in, from the Czech Republic.

Milos Zeman, a right-wing populist, was one of the few European leaders to back Mr Trump ahead of the 2016 vote, but he failed to endorse him this year before the US president’s failed re-election bid against Joe Biden.

Mr Trump has subsequently refused to concede and has baselessly claimed his wide margin of defeat was due to mass election fraud, of which there is no evidence.

His campaign has also launched a series of lawsuits intended to disrupt the presidential transition to a Biden administration.


“I personally believe that it would be much more reasonable to give up, not to be embarrassing, and allow the new president to take office,” Mr Zeman said of Mr Trump on Thursday, in an interview with a regional news website.

1) Zeman is a Chinese vassal, he just repeats whatever talking points he gets from the embassy.
2) He happens to be accidentally right this time, but just because the truth is accidentally aligned with the Chinese interests.
3) Yes, Trump lost and he is just embarassing himself now
4) Qanon is retarded
5) Hilarious of you to complain about how everyone who doesn't agree with your party's line is a racist xenophobe while telling me to leave my EuroThink out of it.
6) If you want to leave EuroThink out if, stop accusing everyone of fascism, an ideology that has never caught on in the US and is infinitely more exclusive to Europe than communism/marxism.

I'm getting a little annoyed at how strawmanned I am being for just thinking that Trump's presidency didn't turn out to be the disaster many, me including, had though it would be and that I think that Biden is a massively underwhelming candidate who will bring nothing but corporate soullessness sprinkled with culture war virtue signalling to appease the developmentally challenged and make them think that yass we're on the right side of history. Are you all as excited as I am to have a ex-chairWOMAN of the federal reserve as the first FEMALE secretary of treasury?!? What a time to have a uterus!
 

Lord Brutus

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Look, I'm sorry you had bad experiences at home with your right wing government. Maybe now you can understand why most Americans no longer wanted Trump to continue his Fascist agenda. Trump's slogan: "America First." Came from the 1930s when it was the slogan of Nazi sympathizers in the US who wanted the US to not interfere with Germany taking over Europe. I have no party line, I have no party. And , for God's sake quit reading that damned NY Post which is a primer of right wing propaganda. IIf you want to quit being annoyed then come to your senses. Trump floated the idea of having all Federal employees swear loyalty to him instead of the constitution. He wasn't quite brave enough to go ahead with it so the US capitol building was spared the fate of the Reichstag.
His most reliable critics are called Antifa, short for anti fascists. [modedit:snip]

Correction: Pardons have become admissions of guilt, a guilt which can no longer be prosecuted.
 
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I thought I was supposed to be the whataboutist Slav???
I don't recall calling you a whataboutist, but if I did it certainly didn't have anything to do with you being a Slav! I do not believe that I am engaging in whataboutism myself. That implies that I want to defend my side by pointing out that the other side is as bad or worse. I most certainly do not hold a high opinion of Clinton, nor do I think that what he did is defensible. Mine is more of a reflection of how things have changed, and I find it amusing that that was a big scandal at the time. I am also most certainly not a fan of the Democrat party, and I find the American obsession of dividing everything in Democract/liberal vs Republican/conservative a bit absurd. I do not take sides based on partisan lines myself.

They didn't lie under oath.
Trump did lie to Mueller.


I'm getting a little annoyed at how strawmanned I am being for just thinking that Trump's presidency didn't turn out to be the disaster many, me including, had though it would be and that I think that Biden is a massively underwhelming candidate who will bring nothing but corporate soullessness sprinkled with culture war virtue signalling to appease the developmentally challenged and make them think that yass we're on the right side of history. Are you all as excited as I am to have a ex-chairWOMAN of the federal reserve as the first FEMALE secretary of treasury?!? What a time to have a uterus!
Trump's presidency was a complete disaster, and I have no idea how you can think otherwise. He destroyed American foreign relations, magnified the existing wealth inequality problems by cutting taxes to large corporations and also changing tax brackets in a way that damages people with lower income, fomented division between Americans and encouraged the worst instincts in our society, directly stole tax payers money by channeling it into his businesses, squandered money on his ridiculous wall, got the US out of the Paris climate agreement, was going to have the US leave the WHO (although that will probably be reversed by Biden), and this is just what I can think of off the top of my head. And I haven't even mentioned how he handled covid, which by itself would be enough to define his presidency a complete disaster. I honestly can not think of a single good thing that he did, except maybe improve foreign relations with North Korea and Russia? Although I don't know that I would call improving foreign relations with dictators an accomplishment.

I fundamentally agree with you on Biden, and I will never understand why they went with him as a candidate. It is still a thousand times better than the absolute ****storm that a second Trump term would have been.
 

Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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6) If you want to leave EuroThink out if, stop accusing everyone of fascism, an ideology that has never caught on in the US
🤔

what are you on? "america first" fascism is and has been extremely popular

trump being an incompetent buffoon of a fascist doesn't mean he isn't still fascist.

I'm getting a little annoyed at how strawmanned I am being for just thinking that Trump's presidency didn't turn out to be the disaster many, me including, had though it would be and that I think that Biden is a massively underwhelming candidate who will bring nothing but corporate soullessness sprinkled with culture war virtue signalling to appease the developmentally challenged and make them think that yass we're on the right side of history. Are you all as excited as I am to have a ex-chairWOMAN of the federal reserve as the first FEMALE secretary of treasury?!? What a time to have a uterus!
trump's presidency was less of a disaster than it could've been, but still objectively disasterous.
biden is indeed a trash candidate though.
 

kurczak

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I have no party line, I have no party.
I recall you mentioning you have some sort of position in the Democrat structures in your county. Is that not true?
... Trump to continue his Fascist agenda. Trump's slogan: "America First." Came from the 1930s when it was the slogan of Nazi sympathizers in the US who wanted the US to not interfere with Germany taking over Europe.
<German American Bund rally>

what are you on? "america first" fascism is and has been extremely popular
trump being an incompetent buffoon of a fascist doesn't mean he isn't still fascist.
The Bund was a small organization (in the grand American scheme) consisting exclusively of German-Americans, typically 0th generation dual citizens.

Fascism isn't putting your country first. Any politician of any ideological flavor puts his country first, unless he is corrupt or a traitor. It is almost a tautology. The difference is what in their mind constitutes the country's interest. That's why the slogan has been popular. It is a completely blank canvass that anyone can project anything they want onto.

Fascism isn't mere flag-waving and power-stancing on the Venetian Palace's balcony either. Fascism is the conviction that nation is the fundamental unit of the human kind, that the interest of the nation always overrides the interests of both the individual and other forms of collective identity, such as class or gender, and that the state is the ideal political expression of the nation and hence the Mussolini/Gentile maxim - all within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state.

This mentality was never popular in America. There has always been a massive libertarian, frontier, don't-tread-on-me, give-me-liberty-or-give-me-death sentiment on the American right, which is incompatible with, or even antithetical to fascism.

I don't recall calling you a whataboutist, but if I did it certainly didn't have anything to do with you being a Slav!
I know you didn't :smile: It was a self-deprecating joke and a little bit of a reference to, I think, Jacob calling me that.
I do not believe that I am engaging in whataboutism myself.That implies that I want to defend my side by pointing out that the other side is as bad or worse. I most certainly do not hold a high opinion of Clinton, nor do I think that what he did is defensible. Mine is more of a reflection of how things have changed, and I find it amusing that that was a big scandal at the time. I am also most certainly not a fan of the Democrat party, and I find the American obsession of dividing everything in Democract/liberal vs Republican/conservative a bit absurd. I do not take sides based on partisan lines myself.
Ok, cool.
Trump did lie to Mueller.
Why didn't they charge him with perjury too, then?
Trump's presidency was a complete disaster, and I have no idea how you can think otherwise. He destroyed American foreign relations, magnified the existing wealth inequality problems by cutting taxes to large corporations and also changing tax brackets in a way that damages people with lower income, fomented division between Americans and encouraged the worst instincts in our society, directly stole tax payers money by channeling it into his businesses, squandered money on his ridiculous wall, got the US out of the Paris climate agreement, was going to have the US leave the WHO (although that will probably be reversed by Biden), and this is just what I can think of off the top of my head. And I haven't even mentioned how he handled covid, which by itself would be enough to define his presidency a complete disaster. I honestly can not think of a single good thing that he did, except maybe improve foreign relations with North Korea and Russia? Although I don't know that I would call improving foreign relations with dictators an accomplishment.
I have no problem whatsoever with improving relations with Russia or NK. Maybe you personally are consistently hawkish, but the general criticism of Trump's foreign policy was "damned if he does, damned if he doesn't" He seeks detente with Russia and NK? Holy ****, he's fraternizing with dictators! Reverses detente with Iran? Omg, jingoist Republican neocon!
The rest are either natural ebb and flow of politics and/or largely symbolic and easily reversible gestures.

That doesn't mean I like them or defend them, but they were not a disaster. His hiring his own companies to host or cater government functions was disgusting, I agree, but still not a disaster. The country can and will easily recover from that.

Taking away his personality and communication style, his presidency was unremarkable and a hundred years from now he will be remembered the same way, say, Rutherford Hayes is remembered, i.e. not remembered. Ironically and symetrically, the anger and anxiety he triggers in people are just as hollow and superficial as he himself is.
 

Lord Brutus

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Fascism in America was never confined to the Bund, a look at Charles Lindbergh should tell you that. But yes I was Democratic Party executive committeeman for my ward for several years before I became an independent. I wish I could share your optimism about the effect of Trump but a man who lies 100% of the time can't inspire confidence.
 
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Why didn't they charge him with perjury too, then?
From what I understand the evidence for that appeared only recently, but I am not 100% positive. I think a large part of it is that there is always so much going on with Trump that it becomes difficult to focus on one specific issue, and honestly most people are not great at that in general.

I have no problem whatsoever with improving relations with Russia or NK. Maybe you personally are consistently hawkish, but the general criticism of Trump's foreign policy was "damned if he does, damned if he doesn't" He seeks detente with Russia and NK? Holy ****, he's fraternizing with dictators! Reverses detente with Iran? Omg, jingoist Republican neocon!
The rest are either natural ebb and flow of politics and/or largely symbolic and easily reversible gestures.

That doesn't mean I like them or defend them, but they were not a disaster. His hiring his own companies to host or cater government functions was disgusting, I agree, but still not a disaster. The country can and will easily recover from that.

Taking away his personality and communication style, his presidency was unremarkable and a hundred years from now he will be remembered the same way, say, Rutherford Hayes is remembered, i.e. not remembered. Ironically and symetrically, the anger and anxiety he triggers in people are just as hollow and superficial as he himself is.
I don't necessarily see it as a problem myself, which is why I listed it as a potential positive. Of course, in the specific case of Russia there is a whole lot more going on which makes it look a bit suspicious. My main issue is that Trump has done a whole lot to separate the US from what should be the actual allies, and ultimately did not seem to really pursue the interest of his own country.


I can't agree with you on his presidency so I suppose we shall agree to disagree. I also think that he is way more dangerous than you think, if nothing else because he has paved the way for someone else, potentially more competent (kind of difficult to be less competent) to push the same rhetoric in the future. I am also worried about how divisive the political discourse is these days, although I suppose that might be as much a product of the issues that this country has than of Trump himself.
 
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Fascism isn't putting your country first. Any politician of any ideological flavor puts his country first, unless he is corrupt or a traitor.
If it's so self evident why make it into a slogan?
It reminds me a lot of "it's OK to be white" from a few years back. Obviously nobody actually disagrees with this, but by making it a slogan you pretend like there is a need to say it, strongly implying that there is a secret cabal of people who think being white is bad. But if you try to argue against it a fascist can just pretend to take the slogan at face value and (in their eyes) make you look like a paranoid moron, which is part of the thrill of being a fascist (at least online).

It functions a lot like BLM, you have a self-evident slogan that you use to try and expose a hypocrisy or contradiction from people who argue against it. The difference is that the police in America are institutionally racist, while white genocide is nothing but a psychosexual fantasy in the cucked minds of always-online neckbeards.

America first was the same:
 

Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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Fascism isn't putting your country first.
"america first" isn't about putting your country first either, it's a shallow disguise of fascism. which you know, since you went on to describe "america first":
Fascism is the conviction that nation is the fundamental unit of the human kind, that the interest of the nation always overrides the interests of both the individual and other forms of collective identity, such as class or gender, and that the state is the ideal political expression of the nation and hence the Mussolini/Gentile maxim - all within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state.


Help, help, I'm being repressed.
literally less than a slap on the wrist smh
 

Lord Brutus

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" “This really is our version of a polite coup d’etat,” said Thomas Mann, senior resident scholar at the Institute of Governmental Studies at the University of California at Berkeley. “It could end quickly if the Republican Party acknowledged what was going on. But they cower in the face of Trump’s connection with the base.”