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2016 U.S. Presidential Elections: The Circus Is In Full Swing

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Well, I was born in the USSR. Will you then trust me assessing if someone is a commie?

I would if you were to do that in good faith. You haven't shown much of that in this conversation, or in any interaction I had with you on this forum really. You just keep selectively ignoring what people say and focus on whatever is convenient for pushing your vision.

This is how I know that this thing is a fabrication:



they plastered things like these all over the web, plus others that are not as obviously fake but still misleading/inaccurate. But we don't even need to go into that. They literally photoshopped pictures to make it look like what they say is true. And you want to give these people the benefit of the doubt???

Why did you completely ignore this?

by this logic, hitler wasn't a fascist until he was in charge either. very good analysis, 10/10

Renzo De Felice would answer you that Hitler was a nazi, not a fascist. I don't think it's even worth having the discussion about Trump being a fascist or not. Calling him a fascist does not change what he is or what he is doing, and it's not like people who like him will go like "oh you said he is a fascist, I am gonna change my mind on him". They will argue with you over it endlessly and it will take attention away from exposing his lies.
 

Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Dancing to electro-pop like a robot since 1984
Subforum Moderator
M&BWBNWWF&SVC
lol
Cut the bull****, kid. "Fascism is not only this or that, hence Trump is fascist" is a weak ass argument.
unfortunately for you, that isn't my argument. good strawman tho! 10/10

my argument is that trumpism fulfills wholly or partially all fourteen determining characteristics of fascism as described by umberto eco (which, while far from the only or most modern definitions of fascism, is one of the most well known and thus makes a convenient list for a forum such as this).

you could start by reading said eco. google "ur-fascism", it's not even particularly long, and available for free. or, if you don't feel like that, you could read jason stanley - "how fascism works: the politics of us and them". maybe you don't like that either. in that case go with "the anatomy of fascism" by robert paxton. all three are excellent reads.

by any of these, trump fulfills at least partially all of whichever determining characteristics of early stage fascism each author uses to define it. stanley in specific defines trump as "performing fascism" as opposed to "being a fascist", and admittedly that's a very compelling perspective. coincidentally, stanley is one of the experts quoted in the article you linked.

if you want one that more aligns with eddie's (wrong) take that fascism is only 20s and 30s italy, you could instead read "strongmen: mussolini to the present" by ruth ben-ghiat, which classifies trump, putin etc as a modern development related to but not identical with fascism. personally i disagree with this take, but in fairness there is something to learn from that perspective, too, and so it's a valuable read.

of course, you won't, because you already know i'm wrong and you're right and so forth, but that's ok. it is very funny though how you are so insistent on being so wrong while asserting i have no idea about a thing i literally studied (y)

and as a lovely bonus, communism is in fact neither "about" state-owned means of production nor planned economy at all, funnily enough (these being merely interpretations of one subbranch of the framework, and far, far from universal). colour me surprised that you'd get that wrong, you commie expert you.


Renzo De Felice would answer you that Hitler was a nazi, not a fascist
ah, yes, the famously uncontroversial de felice :razz:
while some of what he wrote on the subject has value (i find for instance quite chilling his thought of fascism's heritage being a fascist mindset in anti-fascist minds, that must be fought), and all of it is quite fascinating as a contemporary work (and the beautiful scandal around it), the idea that there is no comparison between fascists and nazis is rightly discredited - nazism is commonly accepted as a subform of broader fascism, and in my opinion rightly so.
 

Cyborg Eastern European

Canis Mechanicus
Archduke
Jesuit Karst, this was all such a mind-numbing slog to catch up with.

There's nothing wrong with calling fascistoid government x, y, or b, "Fascist." Nonno M just happened to be the first sack of **** to stick to that particular wall, so he gets the wonderful honour of being used as the umbrella term to all his little offshoots.
Complaining that that can't be the case because some precise minutiae involving precision naming makes you an annoying pedant that's needlesly obsessing over the trees, or an incredible ******* masquerading as one.
 

Weaver

Count
I would if you were to do that in good faith.
Nice.
Why did you completely ignore this?
I didn't. This case just doesn't dispel all of my suspicion.

my argument is that trumpism fulfills wholly or partially all fourteen determining characteristics of fascism as described by umberto eco (which, while far from the only or most modern definitions of fascism, is one of the most well known and thus makes a convenient list for a forum such as this).
Eco's 14 features of fascism are honestly complete bollocks.
Some of them are questionable, most of them can be applied to any authoritarian regime, including the communist regime.
He's not a political scientist, so he gets a pass. But using his ramblings to actually place someone on a political spectrum? Very smart.
if you don't feel like that, you could read jason stanley - "how fascism works: the politics of us and them". maybe you don't like that either. in that case go with "the anatomy of fascism" by robert paxton. all three are excellent reads.
Don't know about Stanley, but I did read Paxton back in the uni.
I don't remember it very well, but as far as I remember he only talks about early XX cent. Germany, Italy and Hungary in his book. And his definition of fascism is pretty classical. What did I miss in Paxton's book?
by any of these, trump fulfills at least partially all of whichever determining characteristics of early stage fascism each author uses to define it.
That's pretty amateurish to call someone a thing if he fulfills only partially some characteristics of this thing, which are not even the exclusive and defining ones.
and as a lovely bonus, communism is in fact neither "about" state-owned means of production nor planned economy at all, funnily enough (these being merely interpretations of one subbranch of the framework, and far, far from universal). colour me surprised that you'd get that wrong, you commie expert you.
And that's exactly my point. An intellectually dishonest person can always say that communism is not really about state-owned means of production and other staple Marxist stuff. So if someone somewhat fulfills at least some features observed in some communist regimes, he can be called a communist.
Just like you're doing with fascism. You're calling someone a fascist because of strong-man political approach and populist anti-left rhetoric. None of those are exclusive to fascism. You also ignore everything else that absolutely can not be crammed into your "Trump is fascist" theory. You have studied this long only to be a more convincing propagandist.
 

Яowan

Grandmaster Knight
M&BWBNW
I don't know, man. This does not sound plausible to me. All Reps think covid is not a real threat while all Dems think it is? How is this even realistic?
Regardless, always best to just check.

Not the wording I used, but unfortunately Covid has been heavily politicised - and I'm assuming now that you don't live in the US, which is why you may not realise the degree to which it has been politicised.

In short the president has underplayed the severity of Covid. See Fauci vs Trump vs the CDC during the spring and summer, and the attempts by the Republican party to prevent publication of case numbers, and sadly even to stall provisioning of medical supplies and Covid tests to hospitals in need across the whole country.

Because of how political the virus is, the US has not been United on virus mandates - and whilst some states have gone into lockdowns, enforced use of masks and social distancing, many of the states have only done some of these, and often for a very short period of time. St Louis County (Blue) in Missouri has had lockdowns and has ongoing enforcement of mask use and social distancing, but the state itself (Red) has no such policies in place (or at least, enforced), nor have counties neighbouring STL - leading to outbreaks caused by people traveling from STL country or Illinois (or visa-versa) to these neighbour counties. There have also been massive outbreaks when people flooded to Midwestern holiday locations, such as the Ozarks, ignoring CDC recommendations.

There has also been a lot of confusion about the virus because Trump stated: “Now the Democrats are politicizing the coronavirus,” Trump said. “They have no clue, they can't even count their votes in Iowa.” “This is their new hoax”

And whilst he was not literally calling the virus a hoax, it has unfortunately fed fires on both the left and right. There have been many outbreaks in the Midwest (such as at Churches) attributed to people ignoring CDC recommendations because of belief that the virus isn't a real deal, belief that hasn't been extensively contradicted by Rep. leadership. Then you've got Fox News, Breitbart, QAnon & Facebook - and the misinformation regarding the virus spread on those platforms, which has very much not helped.

I could keep on going, but unfortunately there is a lot more to this. Like a lot, lot more. But such a discussion would be better placed in the Coronavirus thread. But the TL;DR is that because of how divided the US is on Covid, it has played a direct role in the elections, voter turnout and the methods in which voters voted (Republicans in person, Democrats via mail-in).


I believe that this is the source that Brutus is thinking about.

Unfortunately it doesn't make any mentions about troop movements, let alone 15,000 being brought home.
 
Most republicans i know don't think the virus is a hoax, they just legit believe that for young people there's more risk to their health from being locked down and losing their job. The theme seems to be, keep working with safety precautions if you're young and healthy and stay home if you're old or have at risk conditions, and stay home if you even have the sniffles. That's basically how it's been handled lately in the military and we've had very few deaths due to covid. 9 service members and 8 dependants. Meanwhile our lockdowns have been causing lots of stress and depression among the same demographic and we've seen a drastic increase in suicides and attempted suicides.

Millenials have been complaining for a while that Boomers aren't exiting the work force, well now would be a perfect time for Millenials to start moving up in their work places. But lots of people wants to lockdown everybody regardless of risk.
 
Most republicans i know don't think the virus is a hoax, they just legit believe that for young people there's more risk to their health from being locked down and losing their job. The theme seems to be, keep working with safety precautions if you're young and healthy and stay home if you're old or have at risk conditions, and stay home if you even have the sniffles. That's basically how it's been handled lately in the military and we've had very few deaths due to covid. 9 service members and 8 dependants. Meanwhile our lockdowns have been causing lots of stress and depression among the same demographic and we've seen a drastic increase in suicides and attempted suicides.

Millenials have been complaining for a while that Boomers aren't exiting the work force, well now would be a perfect time for Millenials to start moving up in their work places. But lots of people wants to lockdown everybody regardless of risk.

Nobody is pushing complete lockdowns anymore. That is how they were dealing with it at the beginning when we didn't know what else to do. The general consensus from the scientific community right now is that you should wear masks, social distance as much as possible, and do heavy testing and contact tracing. If you read Biden's program on covid you will see that that is what he is planning to do.

And I wish people were that reasonable. Here in Texas people will refuse to wear masks, and that is with a state mandate in place, will still have social gatherings of people, and at best keep saying that covid is just the sniffles, which is simply not true. And they say that because that is the view that Trump has pushed, as Яowan was saying. That, plus the fact that Trump has been saying for months that mail in ballots are the devil is why people who voted by mail are for the most part Democrats, as we were trying to tell Weaver. But I think that I have given up on that conversation myself.
 
I live in Texas and people are wearing masks. Probably different county to county, but I personally don't see people not wearing masks. Unless you're talking about people out doors and socially distant from other, in which case, hell no, I'm not wearing a mask while taking a walk outside away from others.

Anecdotal, but my parents are hardcore republican, and they voted by mail. I know lots of older folk who did. Hard for me to believe that the vote by mail split wasn't at least 80-20, especially since old folks tend to be republican, and they're worried about the virus due to their age.
 

Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Dancing to electro-pop like a robot since 1984
Subforum Moderator
M&BWBNWWF&SVC
And that's exactly my point. An intellectually dishonest person can always say that communism is not really about state-owned means of production and other staple Marxist stuff.
it is in fact intellectually honest to know that no, communism does not inherently mean state-owned means of production or planned economy.
in fact, orthodox marxism inherently cannot have either of those things, it being a stateless, moneyless system. i thought you were supposed to be the commie expert. you sorely disappoint me.


That's pretty amateurish to call someone a thing if he fulfills only partially some characteristics of this thing, which are not even the exclusive and defining ones.
So if someone somewhat fulfills at least some features observed in some communist regimes, he can be called a communist.
again, very impressively wrong.
"somewhat fulfilling at least some" is a very silly idea, but unfortunately for you, i did not in fact say that. i said trump "at least partially" (ie wholly or partially) fulfills all the determinants, while explicitly saying that merely fulfilling "some" of them does not make someone a fascist. it's an important distinction and you should pay attention to what you read before getting buttmad about something that does not remotely match what i said. doubly so when what i actually said actively contradicts what you accuse me of saying. :lol:

Just like you're doing with fascism. You're calling someone a fascist because of strong-man political approach and populist anti-left rhetoric. None of those are exclusive to fascism. You also ignore everything else that absolutely can not be crammed into your "Trump is fascist" theory. You have studied this long only to be a more convincing propagandist.
as discussed, i am emphatically not just calling him facist for those reasons, your lack of reading comprehension discredits you. feel free to try again.
 
I think 80-20 is probably a decent estimate myself. As far as masks go, right wearing them outside is not necessary, unless you are in a big gathering of people. But I see people walking in grocery stores with them and then lowering them when they are in all the time. And they don't even try to keep their distance from you. Anyway, we are probably going a bit off topic here.

Edit: there actually is some data available on the proportions


Seems like we were not too much off mark.
 
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Weaver

Count
it is in fact intellectually honest to know that no, communism does not inherently mean state-owned means of production
I'll assume that you're not missing my point on purpose and will try to reiterate.
Yes, there are different definitions of communism. Like there are different definitions of fascism. Like there are different types of other ideologies that have similar features.
While Trump obviously lacks many staple traits of a textbook fascist, you still insist that he is "doing faschism" because he is conservative on immigration, a populist and a rabble rouser. And you tested him by Eco's bs checklist.
But by the same token I can mention that fascism does not always entail racism and xenophobia. Does not necessarily reject science and modernism. And whatever else you attributed to both Trump and your chosen definition of fascism. But those traits are not even unique to fascism and you just pick and choose to justify your smear.

Not to mention that I see no evidence that Trump is a racist. And fascism being against modernism is also a questionable suggestion. Your assessment does not make much sense on any level.
again, very impressively wrong.
"somewhat fulfilling at least some" is a very silly idea, but unfortunately for you, i did not in fact say that. i said trump "at least partially" (ie wholly or partially) fulfills all the determinants, while explicitly saying that merely fulfilling "some" of them does not make someone a fascist.
The exact wording you used does not matter as long as your words lack any substance.
The 14 features of fascism is a list pulled out of his ass by a novelist. It's irrelevant because it fits any authoritarian regime.
"Go read a book" is perhaps the most pathetic argument. Are you referring to some other fascism checklist that I'm missing? Looks like you've got nothing so far.
pay attention to what you read before getting buttmad
Projection or wishful thinking? Perhaps both? lol?
as discussed, i am emphatically not just calling him facist for those reasons, your lack of reading comprehension discredits you. feel free to try again.
That's pretty much how you explained Trump's doing fascism in this post. This was the only post where you bothered to offer anything of substance regarding Trump's actions that you deem fascist.
Did I miss something? I'll keep trying because hubris and dismissive attitude do not always mean intellectual and moral impotence. Maybe I'll yet hear something of substance after all if I'm patient with you.
 

Cute Anime Girl

Most republicans i know don't think the virus is a hoax, they just legit believe that for young people there's more risk to their health from being locked down and losing their job. The theme seems to be, keep working with safety precautions if you're young and healthy and stay home if you're old or have at risk conditions, and stay home if you even have the sniffles. That's basically how it's been handled lately in the military and we've had very few deaths due to covid. 9 service members and 8 dependants. Meanwhile our lockdowns have been causing lots of stress and depression among the same demographic and we've seen a drastic increase in suicides and attempted suicides.

Millenials have been complaining for a while that Boomers aren't exiting the work force, well now would be a perfect time for Millenials to start moving up in their work places. But lots of people wants to lockdown everybody regardless of risk.
The problem is that this doesn't work.
 
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Mary Papenfuss

Thu, November 12, 2020, 7:32 PM PST


Retired four-star U.S. Army Gen. Barry McCaffrey said he’s “alarmed” by President Donald Trump’s replacement of key Defense Department personnel and fears that the White House is considering an attempt to use the military to “defy an election.”
“If I was a CIA officer trying to understand what was going on in a third-world country and I saw this pattern of behavior, I would say the strong man’s trying to take over the government and defy an election,” he told Ari Melber on MSNBC Wednesday.
McCaffrey said he doesn’t believe the military would violate the Constitution, but he is troubled by the changes at the top of the Pentagon. There are also other federal forces the White House could mobilize. “We are in a risky situation right now,” he warned.
 

Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Dancing to electro-pop like a robot since 1984
Subforum Moderator
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I'll assume that you're not missing my point on purpose and will try to reiterate.
your "point" is based on a flawed premise that merely shows you don't understand the thing you're using for your equally flawed analogy, you commie expert, you. pointing out the flawed premise is completely reasonable.

The exact wording you used does not matter as long as your words lack any substance.
whining about my words lacking substance is an excellent way of dodging the fact you were caught accusing me of saying something i explicitly contradicted, 10/10

you still insist that he is "doing faschism" because he is conservative on immigration, a populist and a rabble rouser
That's pretty much how you explained Trump's doing fascism in this post.
you managed to find the correct post, yet even to actually read it and see that it entails more than "You're calling someone a fascist because of strong-man political approach and populist anti-left rhetoric." or his being "conservative on immigration, a populist and a rabble rouser"? disappointing. and you complain that my posts lack substance? hilarious.



Not to mention that I see no evidence that Trump is a racist.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
 
A top Democrat on Capitol Hill has compared President Donald Trump’s refusal to concede to “what Hitler did in Germany” during a new interview as criticism grows over the president’s anti-Democratic attacks on the electoral process.

Rep. Jim Clyburn (D—SC) said on Tuesday night he was concerned the president was attempting to take on an authoritarian role despite losing to President-elect Joe Biden in the 2020 US elections and urged Americans to defend the results of the election.

Speaking to CNN’s Chris Cuomo, the House majority whip said: “I’m beginning to see what happened in Germany back in the 1930s. I never thought that could happen in this country.”

“How do you elect a person president, then all of a sudden you’re going to give him the authority to be dictator?” He continued. “That’s what Hitler did in Germany.”
 

Ikea Knight

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
A top Democrat on Capitol Hill has compared President Donald Trump’s refusal to concede to “what Hitler did in Germany” during a new interview as criticism grows over the president’s anti-Democratic attacks on the electoral process.

Rep. Jim Clyburn (D—SC) said on Tuesday night he was concerned the president was attempting to take on an authoritarian role despite losing to President-elect Joe Biden in the 2020 US elections and urged Americans to defend the results of the election.

Speaking to CNN’s Chris Cuomo, the House majority whip said: “I’m beginning to see what happened in Germany back in the 1930s. I never thought that could happen in this country.”

“How do you elect a person president, then all of a sudden you’re going to give him the authority to be dictator?” He continued. “That’s what Hitler did in Germany.”

Well, if that is ment to be a response to this:
Not to mention that I see no evidence that Trump is a racist.

I don't think simply being compared to Hitler for usurping a country makes you a racist. I mean it is a **** move but you don't have to be racist do that.

But yeah no doubt Trump at least promotes racism.
I mean "Chinese flu", the promised wall to Mexico, "****hole countries" and his alleged support by and for far right groups like " Proud Boys" paints a picture of a person with racist believes.
 

Adorno

Bedroom Assassin
Archduke
WBNWM&BVC
Oh. But the Nazis won the majority of votes and Hitler seized power in 1933. You don't concede when you're the biggest party your country has ever seen.
Clearly there are some "details" I don't remember :smile:
 
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