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2016 U.S. Presidential Elections: The Circus Is In Full Swing

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Krik

Duke
M&BWB
Good job plucking sentences out of context. I'll repeat for you what I actually said.

Nobody knows for sure if there was until there's at least an investigation.

Why do you have to be such a little pesky manipulator? Pretty weak game there.
You gave no other reasoning than that sentence for your statement that "there's a good chance fraud was present". Double checking as a good practice has nothing to do with fraud being likely in this specific election or not.
 

Weaver

Count
counting votes from heavily democrat favouring parts of a state is well known to be fraud, yes.
The issue here was that Trump was consistently ahead in both states until the last hours when at some point almost all incoming votes were blue. At least that's what google election widget showed. And that's how election frauds usually work. At least in my experience as a veteran election observer in a third world country.
Not saying its definitely a fraud. It does look suspicious and should be looked into. That's normal procedure.
and yes, trump has absolutely been doing fascism, sorry if that's not to your liking.
If you're slapping awful labels on people without substantiating them in very definitive terms you're the one spreading misinformation and dehumanizing people. Which is actually what nazi propaganda was all about.
 
The issue here was that Trump was consistently ahead in both states until the last hours when at some point almost all incoming votes were blue. At least that's what google election widget showed. And that's how election frauds usually work. At least in my experience as a veteran election observer in a third world country.
Not saying its definitely a fraud. It does look suspicious and should be looked into. That's normal procedure.
If you're slapping awful labels on people without substantiating them in very definitive terms you're the one spreading misinformation and dehumanizing people. Which is actually what nazi propaganda was all about.

And it is the Republican's party right to look into it as much as they want, and request recounts in the ways that are designated by the law. Nobody has a problem with that. There are reasons why what you talk about happened and we can get into that if you want, but that is not even the issue.

I don’t know if these
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should be laughable or scary, I guess both..
^ this is what we have a problem with. The man is not saying "there's something that does not look quite right, we will resolve it in court". This man is saying that there WAS a fraud without a shadow of doubt. He is holding rallies called "Stop the Steal". And he and his goons are spreading misinformation, including actual lies and photoshopped pictures, to try and persuade as many people as possible that the vote is not valid. His Secretary of State just said, on camera, in an official meeting, that there will be a second Trump term despite the current election results stating the contrary. Do you not see the problem here?
 
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Damn, Brutus. Look at you raving about misinformation and fake news only to then go ahead and call Trump a fascist and mention some weird conspiracy theory about a coup. Get your **** together, you hate Trump so much you're losing touch with reality.
I have a feeling that the visceral hatred western neurotics have for Trump is rooted in the fact that they see their perfect shadow in him and its difficult to handle. But it also gives them a chance to justify unearthing their own ugly insides so maybe it was a truly catarthic presidency for many.

Also there is a good chance fraud was present. Just looking at MI and PA the entire day it looked pretty suspicious to me. It is a good practice to make sure everything is in order. No one was surprised when Al Gore asked for a recount, for example. It's a real betrayal that the mainstream media is sweeping all this under the carpet. It's like they've picked a side. :unsure:
Nothing like missing all the facts I put in my post. Good job. I repeated stories posted by reliable news organizations who got them first hand from members of the Pentagon. Al Gore asked for a recount in one state, Florida, when the difference was 337 votes. Trump is saying fraud in states where the difference is from 30,000 to 110,000 votes. Get your facts straight before you criticize.

But let's look at how the casting and counting of votes occurred. It was recommended that as many people as possible vote by mail to avoid exposure to COVID-19. Trump then asked his followers to vote on election day. Nearly all polling stations began by counting the election day votes first. Followed by the mail-in ballots. These ballots are not as easy to count so it's not a surprise that major urban areas were the last to report vote counts.

I realize you're familiar with fraud in that fabulous place where you live but election fraud in the US is extremely rare.
 
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Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Dancing to electro-pop like a robot since 1984
Subforum Moderator
M&BWBNWWF&SVC
The issue here was that Trump was consistently ahead in both states until the last hours when at some point almost all incoming votes were blue.
dem heavy mail-ins were counted last. it's literally that simple.


Which is actually what nazi propaganda was all about.
this is amusingly predictable.

but yes, my mistake, the authoritarian is only undermining the democratic process while culticly praising a false mythical past; rejecting science and modernism, where to him and his fans disagreeing with their point of view amounts to treason; while he systematically builds upon xenophobia while scapegoating immigrants, muslims, and the left, and blaming them for the the economic trouble of the so called white middle class, all the while spouting new conspiracies and supporting old ones; hyping up said scapegoats to be both impotent and yet so dangerous that they are behind all evils; never not having someone else conveniently at hand to blame when things go wrong; chauvinistically dismissing the weak and vulnerable, while lionising the violent and talking up the militias; and using his very specific language to specifically address the american peopletm which of course only means some american people.

it's a solid 14/14 on the fascism metre but clearly he is not actually doing fascism because you think it's a mean word. (y)
 

Weaver

Count
So which reliable news outlets are saying that Trump is preparing a coup? With the help of the troops he withdrew from Germany and right wing militia, no less. On what evidence? Would you say that if the evidence is lacking, those outlets (and you) are spreading misinformation?

If there are reasons to be suspicious a recount is warranted. In my opinion there is but it's not my decision of course. There is nothing wrong or bad in a recount.
 
CNN reported what they got firsthand from Pentagon officials. Their words were "may be plotting a coup." Fact: 15,000 troops are being sent home from Germany. Right wing militia like Proud Boys, Boogaloo Boys say they are ready to support Trump.
When late votes come from Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and 85 % are for Biden, there is no reason to be suspicious.
 
So which reliable news outlets are saying that Trump is preparing a coup?

Of all the stuff in his post you pick this.
Nobody except russiagate libcuck thinks trump is actually preparing for a direct military takeover of the country. But it's really blatantly obvious that he's using the language of a popular military takeover to rile people up, which is something completely alien to American politics since the Civil War. If someone in a liberal democracy is dogwhistling to militias about "taking back the country" and "don't accept it if I don't win", something so blatant that even African Dictators are more cautious than to openly state, then it's not unreasonable to call it an attempt at a coup, just a little hyperbolic at this stage.

By any meaningful, useful definition of fascism which isn't just "military authoritarianism", Trump is a fascist. He doesn't have to be actively putting people into gas chambers (something only one fascist state ever did) to be a fascist. The president of South Korea in the 1960s has been categorised as a fascist, and he was like Rosa Luxembourg in comparison to Trump.

Not saying its definitely a fraud. It does look suspicious and should be looked into.

This sets a terrible precedent for constant recounts until the party that whines the least concedes. There is no evidence except "the lines aren't straight" that even begin to suggest fraud, and electoral fraud in a country like America would be unbelievably easy to detect. You call yourself a "Veteran election watcher", but honestly I would be shocked if you can find any example of electoral fraud in any country which results in such a narrow margin. If the democrats had enough power to fabricate even a fraction of the votes and not get caught, they wouldn't be flagging at 50% of the vote.

This is literally just Russiagate but for the republicans. Both parties lost elections they thought would be easy, and they've invented these conspiracies to rally the party members who are looking for someone or something to blame.
 

Adorno

Bedroom Assassin
Archduke
WBNWM&BVC
... It's a real betrayal that the mainstream media is sweeping all this under the carpet. It's like they've picked a side. :unsure:
It's not being swept anywhere. The various lawsuits are being reported on
You just don't read about all the dead people voting because it still needs to be proven.
Or that sharpies were used, making ballots invalid - because that was bogus.
Or that "GOP observers had been barred from the rooms where the votes were being counted" - because that was not the case.

You can't expect media to report hearsay and amateur lawsuits only meant to harass and drag out time.

The Washington Post journalists actually reported on this story (probably asking themselves if that is why they became journalists):
In another suit, Trump’s presidential campaign asked a judge to stop all processing of absentee ballots in Michigan.
In that case, a Republican election observer said she’d been given a sticky note by an unnamed poll worker, alleging that late-arriving ballots were being counted improperly. But she couldn’t provide the poll worker’s name or any other proof.
 
Y'all, I think that we are getting a bit sidetracked here, which plays right into Trump's diversionary tactics.

@Weaver, let's focus on one thing please. Trump is unequivocally stating that he won the election and that there was a fraud. He is not flaunting the idea, he is not just asking for a recount (which would be fine and noone would have a problem with it). He is saying that there was a fraud, as if it was an indisputable fact.

Two questions:

1) Do you dispute my statement that that is what he is doing?

2) Assuming that you don't, and I don't think you will since that is one Twitter link away and there's literally screeshots of it in this thread, do you think that that is a reasonable stance?
 

Weaver

Count
this is amusingly predictable.
What's more amusingly predictable: you claiming a politician you don't like being a faschist or me saying that it's ridiculous?

There is just as many conspiracy theories coming from the left.
Also since when is rejecting science and modernism fascist? Fascists were quite into both.
And don't even mention the "disagreeing" part. Look at what you're doing. You're literally painting people you disagree with as not even normal human beings. Сompare the length at which the right and the left are willing to go to ostracize and even destroy the livelihoods of people with "wrong" political views in a quest to silence the opposition.
The populist narrative where classes are being manipulated to clash and certain political forces being blamed for all the problems is also a very left strategy.
I also don't remember Biden strongly denouncing the violent riots and promising to crack down on them. I think lionizing the violence is a thing on the left, if it is the right kind of violence.
Just as dismissing large swaths of the population. Didn't Biden say that black people who vote for Trump are not actually black?
The only bit here that makes sense is Trump being tough on illegal immigration. But that's not even a far right thing.
Of all the stuff in his post you pick this.
Yeah.. I picked the obvious fake news bit. Why is it strange?
You call yourself a "Veteran election watcher", but honestly I would be shocked if you can find any example of electoral fraud in any country which results in such a narrow margin.
2010 presidential election in Ukraine.
You can't expect media to report hearsay and amateur lawsuits only meant to harass and drag out time.
Why not. They reported the coup story. Which is also hearsay.
Just like many others which make the opponents look bad.
Y'all, I think that we are getting a bit sidetracked here, which plays right into Trump's diversionary tactics.
Sure. Me trying to bring a weighted opinion to your "two minutes hate" is how Trump plans to conquer the world.
@Weaver, let's focus on one thing please. Trump is unequivocally stating that he won the election and that there was a fraud. He is not flaunting the idea, he is not just asking for a recount (which would be fine and noone would have a problem with it). He is saying that there was a fraud, as if it was an indisputable fact.

Two questions:

1) Do you dispute my statement that that is what he is doing?

2) Assuming that you don't, and I don't think you will since that is one Twitter link away and there's literally screeshots of it in this thread, do you think that that is a reasonable stance?
Not really. Trump is not a reasonable man.
Still I'm curious to find out if there is evidence there was any tampering with mail in votes.

You should really expect this. When you make the election rely more on practices that are more susceptible to fraud, the chances fraud happens increase. And suspicion rises also.
That's exactly why they are changing their voting procedure in countries like Russia and Belarus. If we had mail in votes in Ukraine and the rules were as loose I'd bet you good money all the fraud would happen right there, that would be the weakest spot hands down. But since the US actually has a more or less functional checks and balances system I'm actually willing to trust the results of the investigation.
 
Sure. Me trying to bring a weighted opinion to your "two minutes hate" is how Trump plans to conquer the world.

It kind of is though. Or rather, that is how he got elected, and that is how he keeps himself significant. I guess you missed the link I shared earlier on this topic so I will post it again.


You probably don't realize it, but you are falling for this like a chicken, as we like to say in Tuscany :smile:

And what you don't seem to realize is that what Trump is doing sets a precedent that is incredibly dangerous for democracy not just in the US, but in the rest of the world. He is just ignoring the outcome of the vote and making up things as he goes. How do you not see the problem here? It is beyond me.
 

Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Dancing to electro-pop like a robot since 1984
Subforum Moderator
M&BWBNWWF&SVC
What's more amusingly predictable: you claiming a politician you don't like being a faschist or me saying that it's ridiculous?
the latter, since i don't actually do the whole "calling things i don't like fascist", because fascism is a real thing and it's important to use the term appropriately.
that said, trump is doing fascism, and no amount of you ignoring people's statements about it or intentionally misunderstanding what fascism is will change that.

You're literally painting people you disagree with as not even normal human beings.
lmaowut
i'm saying trump is a fascist (which, again, he is). fascism is very normal human being stuff, unfortunately. i haven't remotely dehumanised anyone - not trump, not you, not anyone else. great reading comprehension, tho, 10/10 do carry on

a) joe "arrest the anarchists" robinette "shoot them in the leg" biden did in fact do that
b) biden isn't "on the left"
c) yes, biden and the rest of the american establishment do also exhibit several of those determining characteristics of fascism. almost none of them reach the full 14/14 that trump do, however. that they share those characteristics does not mean that trump somehow isn't busy being fascist (he, again, quite definitively is), what it actually means is that the us mainstream is politically a disaster relatively easily opened to actual fascists (this is how trump got elected in the first place).

nice shoutout to muh cancel culture tho, excellent discourse!
 

Яowan

Grandmaster Knight
M&BWBNW
The issue here was that Trump was consistently ahead in both states until the last hours when at some point almost all incoming votes were blue. At least that's what google election widget showed. And that's how election frauds usually work. At least in my experience as a veteran election observer in a third world country.
Not saying its definitely a fraud. It does look suspicious and should be looked into. That's normal procedure.
If you're slapping awful labels on people without substantiating them in very definitive terms you're the one spreading misinformation and dehumanizing people. Which is actually what nazi propaganda was all about.

This is my understanding:
  • Trump was ahead in votes in certain states when counting in-person ballots. These, I believe, are counted first. Rural regions in many states were also counted before the cities. Rural regions tend to be predominately Republican, whilst urban areas are Democrat.
  • Swing states that saw a flip saw such when mail-in ballots started to be counted. In some cases a very small number of mail-in ballots were non-Democrat votes. I think this is probably because Biden and the Democrats were telling their voters to vote early via mail-in ballots due to Covid concerns whilst on the otherhand, Trump and the Republicans were telling their voters to not vote early via mail-in ballots, and to instead vote in person.
  • Republicans as a whole understate and throw doubt on Covid (anecdotally I have experienced this first-hand living in a red Midwestern state). Politically it was dubbed as a hoax, and conservative media has devalued the scope and extent of the pandemic since that drama at the beginning of the year - some outlets and individuals have even claimed it that it would go away on the 5th of November (it didn't). This will probably have influenced the perceived importance of in-person voting versus mail-in for voters of the two parties.
 

Яowan

Grandmaster Knight
M&BWBNW
CNN reported what they got firsthand from Pentagon officials. Their words were "may be plotting a coup." Fact: 15,000 troops are being sent home from Germany. Right wing militia like Proud Boys, Boogaloo Boys say they are ready to support Trump.
When late votes come from Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and 85 % are for Biden, there is no reason to be suspicious.

Mind providing a source on this? I'm not seeing anything at a glance on google regarding this subject - moving 15,000 troops would be an absolute nightmare logistically.

Bringing home 12,000 troops or so was discussed this last summer - but doesn't at all seem related to what you are talking about.
 

Weaver

Count
You probably don't realize it, but you are falling for this like a chicken, as we like to say in Tuscany :smile:
Falling for what?
You probably don't realize how irrational you sound, claiming that you know the actual truth but I am falling for someone's lies. Not even knowing how I came to the conclusions I have.
And what you don't seem to realize is that what Trump is doing sets a precedent that is incredibly dangerous for democracy not just in the US, but in the rest of the world.
This is nonsense. You just really need to calm down.

Republicans as a whole understate and throw doubt on Covid (anecdotally I have experienced this first-hand living in a red Midwestern state).
I don't know, man. This does not sound plausible to me. All Reps think covid is not a real threat while all Dems think it is? How is this even realistic?
Regardless, always best to just check.

because fascism is a real thing and it's important to use the term appropriately.
And that is why you compare a president who introduced some policies you don't approve of and made some crass remarks to an authoritarian regime that was best known for partaking in the most terrifying genocide in modern history.

You're dancing on the graves of my ancestors just to flippantly make a character assassination attempt. You are simply full of it.
 
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