2016 U.S. Presidential Elections: The Circus Is In Full Swing

[eddiemccandless]

Police in Italy can get away with less than in the US, and honestly American police is better equipped for that kind of operation (in fact, for the episode that I am thinking about rumor was that American consultants were part of the operation, although that was never substantiated). Disclaimer, I am Italian myself but I live in the US now.

As far as right extremists being involved with the current riots goes, looking at pictures I see plenty of white people myself. And it's not like there's no black right extremists. Sometimes the line between right and left extremism can also be pretty blurry. Once you get to that point you mostly just hate the government and the established "system" and just want to destroy everything, more often than not these people have a troubled life and this is how they react to it. There is nothing rational about it.

I would also like to point out, I do think that most policemen are just trying to do their job as well as they can, and that most protesters are out there for legitimate reasons. There's just people of both sides that are out there to cause damage, and that's what ends up standing out.

 

[Antoine de Saint-Exupéry]

"oh no, looters!"

Police Erupt in Violence Nationwide

From New York to Los Angeles, police officers escalated the national unrest.

slate.com

wouldn't it be nice if cops stopped rioting.

 

[kurczak]

The protests ...are about police brutality and racism in general,

Looting and destruction are bad but they are expected parts of any riot

You don't have to go from a protest to a riot. There have been plenty of protests about very serious things with stakes very high that didn't descend into rioting and looting.

 

[Antoine de Saint-Exupéry]

you don't have to, no. unfortunately the police seem incapable of understanding that and keep doing it anyway.

 

[kurczak]

Pretty racist to imply black people have no agency and only mechanically respond to other people's behavior, mate

 

[Antoine de Saint-Exupéry]

mediocre strawman, you can do better.


if you have paid even mild attention to the extremely well documented and repeated incidents over the last few days of cops attacking peaceful protests with zero provocation and still blame the ensuing riot on the protestors, i dunno how to help you.

and if you buy into the propaganda that centres the looting and uses it to suppress the issue, then that's on you (and very not cool).

 

[kurczak]

It wasn't a strawman, it was a joke. Obviously I don't think you think black people are robots.

I did see videos of what looks like wildly disproportionate police action. I also saw videos that look like the exact opposite. I don't think I'm buying into anything. I'm not imagining either side as angels and the other as devils. The looting is not something on the margins that Alex Jones is blowing out of proportions. It's massive, even in NY, where the looting and rioting is apparently low intensity relative to DC, some southern cities or Minneapolis. Even our (race-wise) megaliberal mayor who's married to a blacktivist and whose daughter was arrested in the riots said things are getting out of hand and instituted curfew starting tonight.

That some people will use it to divert attention from the original cause, I have no doubt. But it's still actually happening and it's a problem. Even just tactically, asking people to ignore their neighborhood being looted because abstract systemic racism...well good luck with that. And by people, I mean me.

 

[Calradianın bilgesi]

I don't think the agency thing works for masses. If loads of people are doing something then it should be viewed like tornados earthquakes and such. Police organisation is an organisation so it makes more sense to keep the organisation accountable for its members.

But yeah I also do think organisations with high capacity, infrastructure and legitimacy should hijack such protects, and keep them disciplined and in hierarchy and also set an agenda. Politics is about convincing the guy who spends 2 minutes per day thinking about politics. So it's better to have someone to draw red lines, don't give any nasty pictures and keep everything peaceful and in discipline.

 

[Kobrag]

Alot of the anger is from the fact that nothing has changed, there have been near decade-ly riots over similiar events. Nothing has changed and nothing will change until the police are:

1. Universally restricted in arms with exception to special weapons groups
2. That their action not only have immediate legal consequences but precinct financial ones. As 'good' cops seem to allways defend the bad ones.
3. Deactivating cameras on a job reduces the pension and job prospects of all cops in that active group, with further possible neglegence charges
4. ALL police unions are banned, as they seem to be uniquely bad actors.
5. Universal standards of conduct are set, backed by federal law.

 

[kurczak]

1, 3, 4 and 5 are wildly unconstitutional if on a federal level, there is 0 chance of them happening in the forseeable future. 4 is unconstitutional even on a state or local level.

2 - Police departments have been financially resposnible for policemen's actions since forever, probably some time in the 19th century. All police brutality cases you've heard of were settled for millions of dollars.

 

[Flin Flon]

You are wholly justified to condem looting and opportunism and arrest/defend against those people. But civil disobedience and even riots (NOT looting) can be fully justified if no (effective) alternatives exist.

Also, Kurczak stop being cringe.

Spoiler: yes hello fellow leftists

(ITS A HALF-JOKE)

 

[Adorno]

The economic inequalities in the US, and the world in general, keep rising, and Trump's tax reforms/cuts mainly benefitted the wealthiest (as tax cuts do). The jobs being created emphasise the 'precariat' class, working multiple, low wage jobs without job security or health benefits.
The pandemic has thrown millions into unemployment and poverty, hitting black people hard. It shows how they're at the bottom of society.

These riots have happened many times before, so it doesn't necessarily explain it, but the current situation is ideal for social tensions.
You can understand the riots without supporting it, and you can rhetorically condemn it without being confrontational.
There are peaceful protests, but also many riots that the media focusses on because it's of the biggest concern right now.
Thousands of people are committing crimes, some very severe, that are likely to go unpunished.
Protesting crime with crime only serves to show that the rioters are themselves part of the problem.

 

[Antoine de Saint-Exupéry]

**** that.

the whole cause of these riots in the first place is thousands of crimes, some very severe, going unpunished. the crying about riots is straight up hypocrisy.

 

[Flin Flon]

I think it's important that you draw a distinction between riots and looting. If not because of the wierd (moral) implications, then do it because you partially disarm conservative crybabies of their justification to oppose the movement.

For example, MLK, Ghandi, etc. these movements were so effective because they were inclusive. That's not to say that disobiedence or violence is off the table. You can make decisions facet-by-facet where you believe violence is justified and where genuine, effective, inclusive rehetoric or exclusive (of looters) is best. Don't let other people or your brain trick you into thinking that you support the looters because you support the movement. The very heavy burden is that you have to be consistent and cannot be a hypocrite ever. Anyway that's my take.

 

[Antoine de Saint-Exupéry]

attacking the narrative that disproportionately centres looting to suppress the actual issue and that is used as a vehicle of propaganda by the state is not the same as defending looting.

 

[Flin Flon]

It is to people unless you preface that you condem looting.

 

[eddiemccandless]

The economic inequalities in the US, and the world in general, keep rising, and Trump's tax reforms/cuts mainly benefitted the wealthiest (as tax cuts do). The jobs being created emphasise the 'precariat' class, working multiple, low wage jobs without job security or health benefits.
The pandemic has thrown millions into unemployment and poverty, hitting black people hard. It shows how they're at the bottom of society.

These riots have happened many times before, so it doesn't necessarily explain it, but the current situation is ideal for social tensions.
You can understand the riots without supporting it, and you can rhetorically condemn it without being confrontational.
There are peaceful protests, but also many riots that the media focusses on because it's of the biggest concern right now.
Thousands of people are committing crimes, some very severe, that are likely to go unpunished.
Protesting crime with crime only serves to show that the rioters are themselves part of the problem.

This exactly. You can't expect people to keep going on forever with 12 dollars per hour jobs in places where you need 1500 a month for a one bedroom apartment if you are lucky (and I am not even talking about the most expensive parts of the country here). Working three jobs and/or having roommates for the rest of forever because that's the only way to make it to the end of the month. Eating poorly because they can not afford to do otherwise, praying that their health stays good despite that because their health insurance sucks. With the knowledge that your children will also struggled, because guess what you need money to get a good education. All the while there's an "elite" of incredibly rich people who more often than not were born into it and live in absolute luxury.

Add covid 19, with people either losing their low wage jobs, or having to keep going business as usual if they work for essential businesses such as grocery stores, with customers coming to the store without masks and coughing on them for the lulz. Then add the police killing someone through use of excessive force, and this is what you get. As @Adorno said, wanton violence is wrong, but I can see where it is coming from. And we all should if we want to have any hope to get out of this. "Overwhelming force" is not the solution here.

 

[Flin Flon]

attacking the narrative that disproportionately centres looting to suppress the actual issue and that is used as a vehicle of propaganda by the state is not the same as defending looting.

It is to people unless you preface that you condem looting.

Also, looting does happen. I would not be surprised if the police is overstretched to the degree that they can't stop looters, hence the deployment of other forces can be justified (but not the excessive use of force of the police or guard).

It's so much easier to just say "ok **** the looters, but wtf is this response against protesters and this complete lack of comptent leadership?".

 

[Antoine de Saint-Exupéry]

so what you're saying is that looting is a viable militant strategy to overstretch police resources and resultingly prevent them from further brutalising peaceful protestors as they are otherwise wont to do.

 

[Flin Flon]

I know you're joking (right? right?????). But to be sure, if you get to gymnast your way into romanticizing looters as noble folks defending peaceful protestors, then the guys on the other side get to romanticize the police.