2015 UNAC testing tournament!
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Shemaforash 说:
You mean the "Which gold amount do you prefer?" thread like 2 years ago? Gelden never said anything like that about 1500 cav. He was arguing in favor of 1500 and against 1000 simply because he didn't think it was a good idea to just change the gold amount standard in NA, especially if people were resisting it. All he said about cav is that 1000g would change the way cav is played in NA slightly, and that he wasn't sure if it would be for the better.
Besides, Gelden was practically at his best during the only two tournaments that used 1000g in NA. Wouldn't even make sense for him to complain about cav being 'weak', if anything he might have said something about it being unfair for NA cav in general to have to choose between a good horse, good armor, or a good weapon, instead of all of them from the start like they have always been able to do.
He did say that he thought that 1000 was more imbalanced than 1500, which I would disagree. I do think that 1000 gold brings more balance to the game, especially balance between the classes. During the 1500 era, cav dominated the scoreboards pretty much all the time, 1000 and 1200 both helped even out kill distribution among all 3 classes. But this beings me back to my previous rant. BiT was the first tournament in NA to use 1000g and guess what? It also happened to be the tournament where excessive every-round camping started being used. This was lame because rounds used to be 6 minutes long and there were no forced flags... so... there were literally rounds where hardly no fighting occurred, and the flags never even popped up, and if they did, it was with so little time, no one could even make it to them in time. This created a lot of tied rounds and a lot of lost time... which is why the need for reducing the round time to 4 minutes and the use of forced flags was introduced in NA by UNAC S1 as a way to ATTEMPT to force confrontation by the 2 minute mark. Playing capture the flag wasn't the intention, but it's kind of what it turned into once teams had realized that camping is an extremely easy and viable strategy to pull off, and developed the idea of finding very advantageous positions around a possible motf spawn... and made it like... their one and only strategy because... why not? There's no viable counter to it when the flag spawns within campable and extremely difficult-to-push-into areas.
I ask the question... what is more important... balance or fun?
Obviously both is preferable, but it you had to pick one... wouldn't it be fun?
If so, then doesn't it make sense to take actions that prioritize fun over balance?
This is my issue with 1000 gold. Even though it does bring more balance to the game... it causes more defensive play, usually in the form of extreme camping / wasting time. It makes sense because... why wouldn't you be more cautious knowing that a single mistake could very well be the end of you?
Whereas more gold could provide you with better equipment that makes you feel safer and more suitable for any situation. Wouldn't you be willing to take more risks if you knew that you could go in and try to make something happen and know that you would have a good chance of coming back-out after a simple mistake?
I think that's what this game needs right now (at least the NA scene.) We need more innovative plays, ballsy moves, flashy kills if you will. Something interesting to look at.
There's currently no incentive to do so though. Battle has no objectives other than kill the enemy team before the time runs out or rather play off of the flag spawn until the time runs out. I don't know about you guys, but I find it to be very dull and boring, especially since you already know all 3 locations where the flag will spawn on any given map, and you can just set up and prepare for them. New stuff hardly ever happens.
Here is a way for you to easily understand this concept Shema. Think of Dota... imagine that the goal wasn't to destroy the ancient, but to get first blood. Why would you ever leave the fountain? It's the safest place to be and if they try to attack you, the fountain pretty much wins the game for you. That's pretty much what camping is and how this game is played now. We need something that resembles destroying the ancient, I'm not saying that we need a destructible object... but SOMETHING that makes us need to always be in constant movement and action if we want to win.
Capture the Flag for example... there is literally no way you could possibly win without constant attempts of trying to acquire the flag and make it back to base in one piece. Now THAT would actually be interesting to watch. It would be interesting to see what ways everyone could come up with to score points in coordination with their teams.
John7 说:
I personally see this as a good thing! One of the main balances to the game is that each faction have different strength's and weaknesses. The higher starting gold you have however, helps to minimize a factions weaknesses, which IMO screws with the inner-faction balance of the game.
By using 1000 gold, Nord cavalry IS objectively weaker (due to lack of armor) then with 1200 gold, BUT, Nord cavalry is SUPPOSED to be weaker, since Nords have (arguably) some of the strongest infantry.
Just my 2 cents.
In other news, I'll be signing up a DoF team later today. Quick question though, when is this planned to take place? (Sorry if that's mentioned some where, I couldn't find it...)
If people are concerned about "shaking up the scene" and allowing for more innovative tactics, we should look at changing the combat gold, rather than starting gold. As Lag noted earlier, the issue with 1k gold is that it promoted camping behavior. I'd argue that this behavior was not merely the result of 6 minute rounds but also the much lower survivabilty at that gold value. 1.2k was chosen as it was the highest possible gold value that would prevent round 1 heavy horses.
Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the "surviving the round bonus" removed and replaced with a more rewarding bonus for kills. This would forseeably add another level of communication and planning for teams when trying to secure their kills (much in the same was as is seen in MOBAs). Teams would have to decide if they should let the archer get the easy kill (but not have anything to spend his money on) or play a bit riskier so an inf could get the kill instead.
Situations like this could definitely add a new flavor to the scene.
Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the "surviving the round bonus" removed and replaced with a more rewarding bonus for kills. This would forseeably add another level of communication and planning for teams when trying to secure their kills (much in the same was as is seen in MOBAs). Teams would have to decide if they should let the archer get the easy kill (but not have anything to spend his money on) or play a bit riskier so an inf could get the kill instead.
Situations like this could definitely add a new flavor to the scene.
Hey, for once I agree with Zaffa.Aura (Zaffa) 说:
Arys 说:
Just to clarify, its the 500g round bonus that I am suggesting removing. Combat gold (aka the amount you get when killing an enemy), would actually be increased.
What do you think of Zaffa's idea to remove combat gold?
I like this idea, maybe because i do play MOBAs.
It would bring more thinking and zing into the game, just like Zaffa said.
What do you think of Lags idea of changing the competitive game mode?
I think that trying a new competitive game mode could potentially work out.
The issue i have with Lagstro's argument is that he argues for Capture the Flag because team's are forced to be on the move, which is not necessarily true.
A team might choose to set up the best defense they can at their flag and not make a move until the time is running down. This would not fix the issue presented at all.
Of course there is no guarantee that a team might try that strategy, but if it's being seen in battle it's probably safe to assume it will be seen in CtF.
"The best offense is a great defense."
I like this idea, maybe because i do play MOBAs.
It would bring more thinking and zing into the game, just like Zaffa said.
What do you think of Lags idea of changing the competitive game mode?
I think that trying a new competitive game mode could potentially work out.
The issue i have with Lagstro's argument is that he argues for Capture the Flag because team's are forced to be on the move, which is not necessarily true.
A team might choose to set up the best defense they can at their flag and not make a move until the time is running down. This would not fix the issue presented at all.
Of course there is no guarantee that a team might try that strategy, but if it's being seen in battle it's probably safe to assume it will be seen in CtF.
"The best offense is a great defense."
Team Name: a Truly Sad Coalition
Captain: ummmmmmmidk
Co-Captain: Platinum Disco
Roster:
1)Fengay 1379989
2)Dezarc 1551899
3)OldCrackz
4)Ruth 394057
5)OgerP 1135405
6)Squeakz 1419408
7)Justinian 1266014
Giraffe 666111
9)AngryArcher 713794
10)Captain 736352
11)Ummmmmmidk 1526016
12)Platinum Disco 1199178
13)MOG 1334640
14)Love 1035572
15)Rallix 392183
16)Tex 1036165
17)savxc 1344703
1SlowBro
19)Joan
20)Green
Captain: ummmmmmmidk
Co-Captain: Platinum Disco
Roster:
1)Fengay 1379989
2)Dezarc 1551899
3)OldCrackz
4)Ruth 394057
5)OgerP 1135405
6)Squeakz 1419408
7)Justinian 1266014
Giraffe 6661119)AngryArcher 713794
10)Captain 736352
11)Ummmmmmidk 1526016
12)Platinum Disco 1199178
13)MOG 1334640
14)Love 1035572
15)Rallix 392183
16)Tex 1036165
17)savxc 1344703
1
SlowBro 19)Joan
20)Green
You could always just bump the flag spawn timer from 2 minutes to 3 minutes, and possibly play with the round timer. It would force engagement sooner and open up opportunities for ninja's, luring teams in with an early flag raise so that you can ambush, etc.
Note: this might have unforseen consequences and this is an off-the-cuff response. Begin forum warrior'ing
Note: this might have unforseen consequences and this is an off-the-cuff response. Begin forum warrior'ing
Obviously deathmatch is what the competitive scene needs. 
Its been discussed before about the round bonus being removed. I'm against it. Now if there was an assist gold bonus, I don't think I'd see a problem with it, but there isn't.
The only time that I know of that the Round Bonus is "surviving the round" is when the round is already over due to MotF or maybe the last cav of a team runs away or maybe the last cav of a team runs away to avoid getting killed (but in this situation, you're getting 500g for loosing a round, pretty big negative there). In other situations, I've never really seen any player just camp spawn to survive. In fact, in any tournament scrim I have ever played, I don't think I've ever seen a player try to survive for round gold bonus except for what I already previously mentioned.
Then main thing I'm against it is because it doesn't reward players for assisting other players. I could get someone very low in health, in which I need the kill, but then an accidental bump steals it. Or in the same situation I get someone to very low health, I need the kill but someone else equally needs the kill, who gets it? And you have to come up with this as the match is progressing so instead of the focus being "lets win the round" it becomes "who do we buff up, oh, then lets win the round." I'm not sure I like it.
But that is the only thing I really have to say. Again, if we had an assist gold bonus, I would be all for it, but round bonus is what we have in its place.
Edit: Also, one could probably mod a way so that a team cannot receive the round bonus if they loose the round. That might help as well.
Edit Edit: I think 1000g is a great setting at that we should keep it. I also support medium speed. Just putting it out there.
The only time that I know of that the Round Bonus is "surviving the round" is when the round is already over due to MotF or maybe the last cav of a team runs away or maybe the last cav of a team runs away to avoid getting killed (but in this situation, you're getting 500g for loosing a round, pretty big negative there). In other situations, I've never really seen any player just camp spawn to survive. In fact, in any tournament scrim I have ever played, I don't think I've ever seen a player try to survive for round gold bonus except for what I already previously mentioned.
Then main thing I'm against it is because it doesn't reward players for assisting other players. I could get someone very low in health, in which I need the kill, but then an accidental bump steals it. Or in the same situation I get someone to very low health, I need the kill but someone else equally needs the kill, who gets it? And you have to come up with this as the match is progressing so instead of the focus being "lets win the round" it becomes "who do we buff up, oh, then lets win the round." I'm not sure I like it.
But that is the only thing I really have to say. Again, if we had an assist gold bonus, I would be all for it, but round bonus is what we have in its place.
Edit: Also, one could probably mod a way so that a team cannot receive the round bonus if they loose the round. That might help as well.
Edit Edit: I think 1000g is a great setting at that we should keep it. I also support medium speed. Just putting it out there.
I'm not sure if completely removing round gold is the best move, because we all know that there are unsung heroes on teams who tag, poke, bump enemies etc, but they never get kills. I also would question if upping combat gold too much would make players want to go Rambo mode and make people kill greedy. This being said I think something along the lines of 200g round bonus gold and 200% combat gold would be something that is at a more reasonable balance of the two.
Capture the flag could be fun, but it is pretty late in the scene to change that, it would need testing just like all these other things we are talking about. I like the direction this is headed though, good stuff guys.
Capture the flag could be fun, but it is pretty late in the scene to change that, it would need testing just like all these other things we are talking about. I like the direction this is headed though, good stuff guys.
Team Name: Wappaw
Clan(s) and/or Organization(s) Representing: Wappaw
Captain (http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?action=profile): Mar (Main Scheduling Contact)
Co-Captain (with link to TW profile): Thor
Members (including Captain and Co-Captain) with IDs:
01) Mar 1561847
02) Thor 57198
03) Nails 7567
04) Kelquethas 394229, 2130555
05) Blade6119 43711
06) Buck 924252
07) Odysseus 1701345
0 Neanderthal 85373
09) Templar 147081
10) Daoctagonhe 1518557
11) Roxhard 990644
12) Cheezeninja 1667666
13) Green Knight 47041
14) Cheesepizza 404554
15) Jim 410272
16) Mafioso 3583
17) Redknight 14219
1 SpainHower 1273788
19) Hot_Carl 389029
20) Sety 684719
21) Vopel 1376921
Clan(s) and/or Organization(s) Representing: Wappaw
Captain (http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?action=profile): Mar (Main Scheduling Contact)
Co-Captain (with link to TW profile): Thor
Members (including Captain and Co-Captain) with IDs:
01) Mar 1561847
02) Thor 57198
03) Nails 7567
04) Kelquethas 394229, 2130555
05) Blade6119 43711
06) Buck 924252
07) Odysseus 1701345
0
Neanderthal 8537309) Templar 147081
10) Daoctagonhe 1518557
11) Roxhard 990644
12) Cheezeninja 1667666
13) Green Knight 47041
14) Cheesepizza 404554
15) Jim 410272
16) Mafioso 3583
17) Redknight 14219
1
SpainHower 127378819) Hot_Carl 389029
20) Sety 684719
21) Vopel 1376921
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