2015-6 Brytenwalda Reworked pulling together the best features of BW submods +

[hoboistice]

Authenticity?
If they were using chains for slaves and agriculture 2500 years ago, they were certainly using them in warfare 1400 years ago.

Chains are not used as weapons. Flails are essentially articulated maces. Trying to rationalize flails in dark age Britain because they had chains is silly at best.

Traditional Brytenwalda default blunts are just clubs. One cannot succeed in the game with them.

With enough Power Strike or Strength just about any weapon is easily viable.

I thank you for your request for a better flail

I'm not requesting a better model. I'm telling you it's completely anachronistic and nonsensical.

Players like being in charge and being a hero. Traditional Brytenwalda requires that one endures 50-60 hours of club and foot play before you have gear suitable for surviving combat.

Maybe if its their first time playing, if you've played Warband before it shouldn't take you 50 hours to get good equipment in Brytenwalda. Try 5 at the most.

I would like a more realistic club

You know you could just add maces right? Which are completely accurate for the period?

You decide to make you own reality by removing or not using certain items.

I think it's pretty jarring to play a historical mod and have a bunch of 15th century weapons thrown in "because they're cool".

 

[Redleg]

I am a fan of historical accuracy too but I am going to back up GDWitt in this debate.  While the modder should listen to the comments and suggestions of the players, the modder cannot always implement the players' suggestions because some of those suggestions are at odds with other players' suggestions.

This reminds me of the debate over at the Viking Conquest forum where many players wanted the VC team to added Dane axes and other 2-handed axes into the game.  My response to that was that if the developers didn't want to have 2-handed axes, they shouldn't be compelled to put them in, especially since the player can do this on his/her own very simply with Morgh's tools. 

The same goes for the flail.  This submod is based on GDWitt's vision of how to improve the game-play of Brytenwalda.  He seems to have a following of players who appreciate the work he has done and who share their ideas with him about further improvements.  It is a simple enough matter for a player to remove the flail or to replace it with a period-appropriate mace.  There is no need to get bent out of shape over an anachronistic weapon or two when the solution is within the hands of the player.

 

[Papuciko]

There's no realism in games. You can copy some aspects from reality but that's it. This mod is not a historical one, only use some aspects  from a period of time. And they do that nice, in a funny way, how a game must be, so congratulation. 

 

[hoboistice]

I am a fan of historical accuracy too but I am going to back up GDWitt in this debate.  While the modder should listen to the comments and suggestions of the players, the modder cannot always implement the players' suggestions because some of those suggestions are at odds with other players' suggestions.

That wasn't the point. He can add whatever he wants at the end of the day, but the point was that he should mention the mod is anachronistic or historically inaccurate. Brytenwalda is heavily focused on historical accuracy to begin with.

This reminds me of the debate over at the Viking Conquest forum where many players wanted the VC team to added Dane axes and other 2-handed axes into the game.  My response to that was that if the developers didn't want to have 2-handed axes, they shouldn't be compelled to put them in, especially since the player can do this on his/her own very simply with Morgh's tools. 

That's not really comparable. Two handed axes are weapons which most likely would have been around during that period, since later polearms wouldn't have just sprang out of nowhere without some prior influence. And even if you were to say the Dane axe is inaccurate, it's not equivalent to a weapon that's 800-900 years out of place.

There is no need to get bent out of shape over an anachronistic weapon or two when the solution is within the hands of the player.

I'm giving criticism, that's a bit of an over exaggeration.

 

[Sarin]

Hm. A smart decision would be to have flail available in game only through shops or as one choice of quest reward, so the use of it will be purely player's discretion.

I'm still playing from my old Repolished save, but what I get around to Reworked, I'd remove the flail from it if possible. If it's merchandise, one simple edit using Morgh is all necessary, and if it's a reward, alternate reward to choose would be great.

Just please, no unit using it, because then it's much harder to avoid.

 

[Redleg]

That wasn't the point. He can add whatever he wants at the end of the day, but the point was that he should mention the mod is anachronistic or historically inaccurate. Brytenwalda is heavily focused on historical accuracy to begin with.

My intent was not to question your right to criticize.  You surely do have the right to point out historical inaccuracies and this may help the modder.  I don't think it's fair, however, to say that the mod isn't historically accurate because an anachronistic flail was added.  I would guess that all mods, even those aiming for historical accuracy, have inaccuracies.  Historical accuracy is on a continuum, not a binary function.  At most, modders can say they strive for historical accuracy, within the limitations imposed by the game itself and what we know about history.  Adding a flail to a mod that is "heavily focused" on historical accuracy just moves the mod a notch down on the accuracy scale rather than making it inaccurate. 

An inaccuracy that exists in the original Brytenwalda mod is the steep penalty for killing captured lords.  From historical accounts, we know that King Penda Pybbing of Mercia killed at least 5 kings during his reign, and suffered little backlash for it (except from his enemies).  Another likely inaccuracy is the availability of the 2-handed axes, which were not to become widespread for quite some time.  Furthermore, there appears to be virtually no evidence for large-scale "Dena raider" or "Frankish" raiders raiding Britain in the early 7th century as depicted in the mod.  It is also improbable that an illiterate person could learn how to read in just a few days by paying some monks at a monastery.  There are a number of historical and logical inaccuracies in the original mod but I would say that overall, its flavor is still largely of the time period.

Anyway, my commentary is all intended to be in good sport rather than to create animosity.  One of the great things about this forum is that people are willing to help each other out, to provide suggestions, and to ask questions.  Pax vobiscum.

 

[Urien]

Historical Accuracy in this time period is highly contentious to say the least.

Relatively little is known for certain about the material culture of the period in most parts of the British isles for most of the cultures postulated.

If you follow the archeological and historical academic literature you will find that even the traditionally defined historic narratives and ethnic groups of the supposed Anglo-Saxon conquest are in doubt, many of the early dynasties and migration and settlement tales of these cultures are seen now as largely mythically derived, and later political and dynastic expediency has motivated the refashioning of History. Even Academia has been involved in discourse which is often motivated as much by the 19th - early 20th  century ideals of racial superiority and purity, and modern cultural sentiments of English ascendancy or Celtic nationalisms, and the evidence in academia has been manipulated and misused over the years.

So this game can only be a subjective attempt to portray a subjective view of what might have been fairly historically accurate - If we say we want accuracy. The most unrealistic aspect of the game is the unlimited cash based market economy. The cash economy collapsed in the mid 5th century when the flow of coins from roman mints to pay soldiers and officials had ended, and the debased currency often made by dodgy empoerors was deemed worthless. Its understandable, because wouldnt it be a pain swapping all your loot for food, hides, cattle etc at every village and even in towns quite a lot of the time - you can be damn sure nobody was forking out piles of silver coin for assorted boots, slings, bent spears, cracked shields and other trash loot in the dark ages!

In terms of weaponry, there is a signal problem in that iron does not survive well over such a long time for a number of reasons - It rusts, and it is easily reused, which would have been especially important in an era of economic decline and relative material poverty.

Chain mail could have been as common as in the game, epic poetry from the period implies large numbers of armored warriors in the elite, but some see this as poetic license.  Spears were certainly the most common weapon, archers were less common on the battlefield than later periods, but there were large numbers of throwing weapons including the francisca axe amongst some groups (not necessarily just franks!) including late romans and sub roman britains in the period immediately after the end of Roman rule.

Much of what is seen as 'Germanic' style equipment is in fact evolved from kit which is late roman in inspiration - the styles of helmet, buckles and personal adornments favoured by the 'germani' elite were largely direct copies of or inspired through contact with the late roman army, and so the late roman armies artistic styles and those of the near germanic tribes who interacted with them as both raiders and recruits, mercenaries or foderati became similar.

Anyway Ive ranted on enough but on the flail I will say that from what I have seen the Flail was never a particularly common in any time period, it is either a specialist custom made weapon, or, in some cases, was an agricultural tool adapted for use as a weapon - and this is in common with halberds and bill hooks, both of which were simp0ler and more practical weapons than the giant two handed threshing flails used by peasants. These two handed flails are attested in 16th C german fight manuals, they were used by some peasant rebels and low class religious radicals during the 16th C. Of course, we dont have many european fight manuals or weapon training manuals, I think none before the 15thC. 

I think it is unlikely they were used in the 6th - 7th C in Britain but if they were they would have been rare.

However, from a game point of view it was a good piece of work to make them possible, and they are relatively rare. Id certainly want  them in a medieval set mod just for ****s and giggles.

I have never fought any enemy carrying a flail, and they are a rare occurrence in shops, I think only the specialist lordly armour vendors and the mystic merchant has them in this version, so if you dont like them, just dont buy them! 

 

[Urien]

Also, whats with all this Clarkson sh*te on everyones signatures?

I cant stand the guy...

 

[kalarhan]

I cant stand the guy...

Its a alien invasion, we are doomed

Spoiler

or just https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Fools%27_Day

 

[Urien]

As long as hes gone tomorrow!

 

[Kulin]

Hi,

i just started to give this mod a try. First impression: i cant even hire peasants because i have not enough renown. Next impression: in every tavern is a dude that tells me to "surrender or die"(but he does not attack). I also get debug messages in the log.

Did i do something wrong while installation? This seems a little bit too buggy to be normal.

 

[gdwitt]

Nice debate going on.
I'm kind of upset at the fellow who posted all the negative, false comments about the mod, but I'll let it pass.
Example:

They're just one handed maces. They don't even have new animations.

I worked with K700 on the flail animations for 2 months. Tell him that they're not new animations. K700's work is a special feature of this mod and I recommend everyone try the simple WSE install to get them working.  I'm sorry the flail looks medieval, but it's the only model that he has gotten to work.
Without WSE, the flail sounds make the experience still very realistic to me.

I wish I could be more involved, but I only have a few hours a week to devote to this.

Flails are the best with the battle mechanics. The rope and ball flail is available in the shops, but they break every battle.
The steel chain flails will stay as a special item only available from special merchants that are unique to Brytenwalda.

There are only few other points I will stick with. But it's up to each player to choose their historical vision.
The items equipped by other troops are very limited, except for special bandits and quests.

We are recruiting! The mod is on github and is open source. I have 20 odd jobs for volunteers to help with.

Next impression: in every tavern is a dude that tells me to "surrender or die"(but he does not attack).

This is an bug that is not as common as you make it seem. All the mercs have fine dialogs. The "local talent" villagers don't have a default dialog set up. It got lost in the transition to the new format in v24 and recovering it is a goal I have this weekend.

Hiring peasants is easy and not based on renown alone. Leadership and Charisma also aid in hiring peasants.
In traditional Bryt, you had to play in-game for about 3 weeks as a freelancer just to get enough skills to hire peasants or enough money to do tournaments.
If you have specific bugs, please report specifics details in the bug thread for Reworked with actual quotes or screenshots.

Build v24 is less buggy than it has been for some time. But I need to see what you're talking about.

Dark Age Britain will live on in all our imagination for many years. I hope we can  capture some of that adventure in this mod.

 

[gdwitt]

NOTE!!!
I would ask that players who don't want to test to wait a week for a big fix.
I'm encountering many new and unexpected bugs.
It maybe the new patch that was released.
However, much of it may boil down to the module constants file having been unfinished by Lord Golias.
I was going though his new file line by line and half the slots are missing.
This may be the origin of:
1) strange mercenary parties that challenge your party in taverns.
2) the gender references.
3) Enterprises not working properly.
4) Politics
It shouldn't affect fighting, trading in the early campaign very much however.

Here is the latest edition I'm working with that is compatible with version 24.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/336eo05oinre16f/HotfixApril72015HornsBowsquests.rar?dl=0
The main change is that I have merged module constants from before Lord Golias with those after he reorganized everything.
It includes all the prior patches to version 24.
If you have time, please test this and note any flaws that are still there.

 

[iguana_man]

NOTE!!!
I would ask that players who don't want to test to wait a week for a big fix.

I'm hoping to try out this mod when the bug is fixed, but I am confused by the install instructions (I've never installed any versions of brytenwalda or a 'submod' before).

Your instructions say to download the "BW Reworked Standalone" from the nexus link but there is no file with the word "standalone".  This is what I see http://puu.sh/o8hkc/8ac19f2c05.png

Do I just download 24d and the music files?  The 24d file is only 1,494kb.. seemed a little small for a huge mod.  Should I be downloading version 24 from the "old versions" section or should I have a version of Brytenwalda already installed?

Would really help me if you could provide updated install instructions.  Sorry to be a pain.

 

[Kulin]

Next impression: in every tavern is a dude that tells me to "surrender or die"(but he does not attack).

This is an bug that is not as common as you make it seem. All the mercs have fine dialogs. The "local talent" villagers don't have a default dialog set up. It got lost in the transition to the new format in v24 and recovering it is a goal I have this weekend.

Hiring peasants is easy and not based on renown alone. Leadership and Charisma also aid in hiring peasants.
In traditional Bryt, you had to play in-game for about 3 weeks as a freelancer just to get enough skills to hire peasants or enough money to do tournaments.
If you have specific bugs, please report specifics details in the bug thread for Reworked with actual quotes or screenshots.

Build v24 is less buggy than it has been for some time. But I need to see what you're talking about.

Dark Age Britain will live on in all our imagination for many years. I hope we can  capture some of that adventure in this mod.

Hi, thanks for your answer. I considered the peasant thing a bug because i thought it should be possible to follow the tutorial from the merchant at the beginning. He says to hire 5 peasants and gives you some money(not enough for anything beside peasants). Afterwards i did some freelancing until i was level 12 or something( i had the second highest troop rank). I still had zero renown and was not able to hire peasants. But i'm not able to provide screenshots or anything at the moment. Maybe its a problem because i'm playing a female? I will give it a try when i have more time to play and give you a bug report in the correct thread.

 

[gdwitt]

That is annoying to have an undoable quest at the start.
I liked the old start, but I'll leave the new quest start in there for now as Lord Golias was planning to do something unique with it.

Let's verify that you can't really recuit first.
Look here:

Spoiler

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,348991.0.html

There's no gender check.
It needs a renown of 30 OR a persuasion of 3 to con 5 young men into joining your team to join a very dangerous mission.

The new patch makes it leadership+persuasion>=3.
I think it is a bit tough even with this new change, but it's realistic.
I am not inclined to change it unless the other options don't work.
There is an option in Brytenwalda in the main town menu to ask people to join you.
I don't think it has a renown hurdle, but it only returns a random result.
You need to try it again each day (at a different town).
You can usually get some townies to join this way.

If you have some money, hiring mercenaries is the usual way to get 5 men.
let us know.
GDW

 

[Urien]

Hi Kulin,

I have read a few things in the guides about character creation.

If you are playing at normal or higher, particularly full realism difficulty the mod is hard!

I seem to remember it being mentioned that playing as a female character is extra hard - it really is a mans world in the dark ages... If you choose a non elite social background it is also hard.

The general consensus is that you select a Noble/Retainer background for a 'standard' heroic/fighter character. This will give you a mix of combat skills and some status and social skills like leadership and persuasion particularly as a noble. Playing as a woman, especially a commoner, is considered a bit 'Hard Mode!'

Gdwitt would be the expert on how much this is retained in this version of Brytenwalda, but the guides are here: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,155372.0.html

I always find with this background, one or two fetch and carry missions for the village elder gives me the rep and a few coins to get the first troops recruited. Also, after you kill the bandit at the beginning the merchant gives you some stuff you can sell for a bit of money.

Good luck!

 

[jeoffreyjapie]

So v23 is the most stable version and waiting till the new bug fix for v24 is best?

 

[gdwitt]

I would stick with Version 24 just to make sure your games are savegame compatible.
I think I'll be able to release a patch tonite.
GDW

 

[gdwitt]

The mod is fixed!!!
Bug fixes:
Can't recruit mercenaries in taverns.
Get attacked by merc groups in taverns.
Ladies tell you that she is a daughter or sister instead of a son or brother.
Companion scripting.
Enterprises should be fixed.

Character start screen now has the original Brytenwalda trademark setup screen.

Module_constants overall should solve many other bugs; it was left half-done by a prior helper.

I included: WSE pack and skills.txt with agility as you see in other mods.
Download it here: http://www.nexusmods.com/mbwarband/mods/5994/?

It should be savegame compatible.