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2 hander opinions

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IronLion

Recruit
Bannerlord players hear me!

So I just wanted to get some other opinions on the state of 2handers multiplayer. I come from playing a lot of Warband where I felt things were really well balanced so maybe I've been a bit spoiled but MAN. I find 2 handers outrageous in multiplayer. Big issue for me is that when enemies are wielding massive long axes or 2 handed swords in Warband if these were used in super close range they would (sensibly) wiff/glance and do nothing therefore if you went in close against 2 handers you had a good chance of countering them. In Bannerlord it seems they've changed it up so if you are using a 2hander and catch someone at the very start of your swing (which would be the wooden shaft of the weapon) it still obliterates whatever it touches and deals massive damage. My problem with this is twofold:

1) You shouldn't be able to use 2handers in such close/face huggy range
2) this means the weapon is artificially sped up and actually often beats any 1 handers to the punch

This is without mentioning how absurd the menav is or the Falx.

What are your guy's thoughts? You think the 2handers needs balance or am I too stuck in my Warband ways?
 

Hans 77

Knight
WBWF&SVC
Instead of 2H weapons simply being the problem, it has more to do with the combat mechanics, which are ubiquitously screwy and currently in a bad state. Things like no turncap and overexaggerated swing animations allow players to really cheese in melee.
More on all those issues here: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?forums/combat.694/

That said, some of the 2H weapons are a little unbalanced. The Battanian and Imperial bastard swords (when used two-handed) swing way too fast, and there's been a push for some time now to change the menavlion into more of a pike weapon instead of a God-tier katana.
 

flashn00b

Sergeant
I think buffs are more important than nerfs IMO. Dunno how one-handed weapons would be changed up to provide a fairer fight against 2h since the faster speed of 2h is supposed to compensate for the lack of shields (essentially an autoblock for multiplayer). If i were to change specific things regarding one-handed combat, i'd vouch for smaller shields such as the Targe and the Khan's Guard's shield leaning more towards an increased shove damage to make up for their reduced coverage (4-6 vs the usual 2-3).

If you take away the increased speed of two-handed weapons, then there'd be no reason to use two-handed weapons over a shield and one-handed weapon with a similar speed value
 
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Mabons

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Patch notes ideas for 2handed:
"Nerfs"
Menavlion can now no longer be swung sideways. It can only be swung overhead or thrusted. Thrusting damage increased to compensate.
Falx and bastard weapons slowed down to be more in line with 1 handed weapon speeds.
Voulges, axes and bardiches now properly glance when the shaft is the first contact with the enemy.
Sweet spots tightened, now you must hit with the middle of the swing, hitting too early will glance entirely, hitting too late will do little damage.
It is no longer possible to block while kicking.
"Buffs"
Damage increased versus cavalry, a good swing that hits in the correct sweet spot will now one shot most light cavalry, and cleave through damaging the rider, only possible on axes.
Slight speed increase on hammers weapons.
Handling for swords and falxes is increased to reflect their "duelist" capabilities. They will now have less of a delay in blocks.

Apart from these changes, movement speed across the board needs to be put to a neutral point for inf, something like 80 for inf, 78 for archers and 76 for cav on foot. Weights need to be shown when weapons are selected, and reflected in the handling, that swinging a massive 2 handed axe around isn't quite the same as a finely balanced sword. And remove duplicates perk choices, whats the point in heavy menav, long menav, standard menav, why not just give shock inf the chance to be a medium infantry spawn with a sword and shield option for all of them. (Other examples are the Guard's bardiche/tabar, Berserkers Great Axe/Default, Savages Falx etc.)

I find it hard to justify taking shock infantry unless your literally just chilling/trolling in Skirmish, but they are absolutely brutal in every other mode, and way too "noob friendly".
 

hoonii

Knight
imo only the block delay caused by 2handers is the major problem here, aside from cav menav+glaive which should absolutely removed/nerfed to ground.
 

Mushbeast

Knight at Arms
I find the 2handed gameplay pretty ridiculous. It seems to be intentionally over-powered because archery too is too powerful, providing a hard counter to it which would make the class absolutely worth-less if it was any less powerful. Saying that though, I think both archery and 2handed need to be nerfed for that matter.

If armor had more of an effect, there could be a greater variety in two-handed weapons, as weapons like the maul are pretty much only as effective as taking down an armored target as a 2handed sword or pole-arm which just sort of nullifies them.
 

IronLion

Recruit
Patch notes ideas for 2handed:
"Nerfs"
Menavlion can now no longer be swung sideways. It can only be swung overhead or thrusted. Thrusting damage increased to compensate.
Falx and bastard weapons slowed down to be more in line with 1 handed weapon speeds.
Voulges, axes and bardiches now properly glance when the shaft is the first contact with the enemy.
Sweet spots tightened, now you must hit with the middle of the swing, hitting too early will glance entirely, hitting too late will do little damage.
It is no longer possible to block while kicking.
"Buffs"
Damage increased versus cavalry, a good swing that hits in the correct sweet spot will now one shot most light cavalry, and cleave through damaging the rider, only possible on axes.
Slight speed increase on hammers weapons.
Handling for swords and falxes is increased to reflect their "duelist" capabilities. They will now have less of a delay in blocks.

Apart from these changes, movement speed across the board needs to be put to a neutral point for inf, something like 80 for inf, 78 for archers and 76 for cav on foot. Weights need to be shown when weapons are selected, and reflected in the handling, that swinging a massive 2 handed axe around isn't quite the same as a finely balanced sword. And remove duplicates perk choices, whats the point in heavy menav, long menav, standard menav, why not just give shock inf the chance to be a medium infantry spawn with a sword and shield option for all of them. (Other examples are the Guard's bardiche/tabar, Berserkers Great Axe/Default, Savages Falx etc.)

I find it hard to justify taking shock infantry unless your literally just chilling/trolling in Skirmish, but they are absolutely brutal in every other mode, and way too "noob friendly".
Totally agree with you! If they sorted out the glancing thing that would go a long way to balance the game. As you point out it feels insane that you can duel someone with a massive 2 handed axe using a sword that was MADE FOR DUELING and get totally starched and left for dead in terms of swing speed
 

Horatius

Banned
WBNWVC
They first should fix the stuns, I can find no logic in them and it just makes 2 handers frustrating to fight.
 

Trend

If you don't want to read just check the bold text. The two handed weapons are too fast.

I know that the game is a historical mix and its goal is not to be accurate but the foundation and the general ideas must be acknowledged.

To begin with in the choosen time period the two handed weapons are basically non existent except the spears, rhomphaia and the two handed dane axe. But we have two handed swords - I'm ok with that it is just a game after all.

Secondly the swords are killing tools. They are made comfortable, light, agile, balanced, flexible and resilient. Even the two handed versions. Don't be misled from their look.

Thirdly this kind of two handed swords (like in game) originated from Western Europe and from there gained their popularity. They were moslty enjoyed and used between XII - XVII century. I'm not talking about the two handed use of the Katana or the Chinese Zhanmadao with approx. max lenght 2 m and its anti cavalary use.

The average lenght of the so called longswords is 100 - 150 cm. I'm not talking about the Zweihänder (up to 220 cm in lenght) and its exceptional use from XVI century.

The average weight of swords in Western Europe between X - XV century is:
One handed: 1 kg -1,3 kg
Bastard: 1,3 kg - 1,8 kg
Two handed: 1,8 kg - 2,5 kg

Of course there are ceremonial swords and other exceptions but you can't wield 6 kg iron stick expecting to kill or to survive.

So the two handed sword only has a longer reach and more power comming from the weight and the needed energy to lift it and strike. It is not faster by any mean. It's another story if the fighter is better trained and expirienced.

So my point is - make their speed like the one handed versions in the game. It will be some sort of accurate and will be OK for the MP use in game.
 
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Patch notes ideas for 2handed:
"Nerfs"
Menavlion can now no longer be swung sideways. It can only be swung overhead or thrusted. Thrusting damage increased to compensate.
Falx and bastard weapons slowed down to be more in line with 1 handed weapon speeds.
Voulges, axes and bardiches now properly glance when the shaft is the first contact with the enemy.
Sweet spots tightened, now you must hit with the middle of the swing, hitting too early will glance entirely, hitting too late will do little damage.
It is no longer possible to block while kicking.
"Buffs"
Damage increased versus cavalry, a good swing that hits in the correct sweet spot will now one shot most light cavalry, and cleave through damaging the rider, only possible on axes.
Slight speed increase on hammers weapons.
Handling for swords and falxes is increased to reflect their "duelist" capabilities. They will now have less of a delay in blocks.

Apart from these changes, movement speed across the board needs to be put to a neutral point for inf, something like 80 for inf, 78 for archers and 76 for cav on foot. Weights need to be shown when weapons are selected, and reflected in the handling, that swinging a massive 2 handed axe around isn't quite the same as a finely balanced sword. And remove duplicates perk choices, whats the point in heavy menav, long menav, standard menav, why not just give shock inf the chance to be a medium infantry spawn with a sword and shield option for all of them. (Other examples are the Guard's bardiche/tabar, Berserkers Great Axe/Default, Savages Falx etc.)

I find it hard to justify taking shock infantry unless your literally just chilling/trolling in Skirmish, but they are absolutely brutal in every other mode, and way too "noob friendly".
Another + from me, everything said would make a game better
 

flashn00b

Sergeant
So the two handed sword only has a longer reach and more power comming from the weight and the needed energy to lift it and strike. It is not faster by any mean.
As i've mentioned earlier, two-handed weapons being faster than 1h is most likely a balancing decision to compensate for the inability to carry a shield (autoblocker + arrow deflection). If 2 handed weapons didn't have their speed boost, then there'd be no reason to pick a two-handed weapon over a one-handed weapon and shield.
 

Trend

@Sikkimoto I'll try not to change the subject of the thread.

@flashn00b So in game they made the longer reach and damage insufficient to use a two handed weapon comparing it to the one handed version.
 

greedogre

Regular
swing speed is not the problem, is the stun lock that ruin the game. after a successive block your next attack will be slow to a degree that not really worth to press attack bottom. and it break the tempo so bad with lag sometime you found your attack command was eaten by the server
 
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