"10 Things Christians and Atheists Must Agree On"-- an interesting article

[Papa Lazarou]

Judging something sight unseen, real classy.

Pretty much. Way to pass judgment there, Lazarou.

EDIT: When I read it I was honestly expecting the usual religion-bash holiday so near and dear to your hearts. I was pleasantly surprised.

Hahaha, yes. I'm glad people had a go at me for it though =p

Was I wrong by the way?

 

[Instag0]

What do you think of the idea that religion is utterly useless, that its secular benefits are nothing that couldn't be replaced or emulated by non-religious organizations, activities, etc.?

Religion is not utterly useless. It brings people together- from families to nations and academia (in ancient times), helps normalize social codes, and carries on important historical stories both fiction and non-fiction. Plus, religions are just ****ing interesting to learn about regardless of their implications.

However, its secular benefits could definitely be emulated by secular societies, but I don't envision nor truly want a world devoid of religion. Theism, on the other hand, I wouldn't mind extinguishing. :p

 

[iamahorse]

Ehhh, here is my personal view point on all of this, but it takes a bit of back ground explaining:

See, I was raised Mormon (and I am half-black at that! I always felt odd-ball out in church, but they were nice to me anyway), then Baptist/Mormon. Eventually, during my Teenage Rebellion Phase, I simply said "Screw religion all together! There is no God! Go go science and stuff." Which lead me down a more secular path of studying (in a rather broad way) history. Eventually I began to notice something: Religion, at a point in time, was necessary. See, I am of the belief that when a human cannot explain it they hark back to the thought that some All-Powerful force caused it; this kind of explains why people honestly thought that lighting came from a large man in the sky who was pissed off or that in order to get a good harvesting you had to appease the land/deity in charge of that plot of land.

I figure that Religion was thought up (mind you I say religion, not God(s)) so as to have a concrete and, at the time, effective way of controlling a poop load of people for what you, the leader, perceived to be best, i.e. Government. Looking at the the various religious texts we have today all they really do, at the core, is provide laws (later on, though, people would take them up for inspirational means and whatnot), and at the time people sure as hell needed them. I cannot cite specific evidence, and I won't because I am just putting out my viewpoint so as to give another way to see things and, mind you, not attempt to convince you one way or another (I could care less about half of you as it stands because this is the internetz and chances are I won't ever meet you. Ever. Never ever ever... ever.)

However! In modern trappings I feel that religion loses a great deal of its original purpose: to make up a poop load of laws to make sure we are not out there doing really, really bad ****. We have Government for that now. In turn religion becomes entirely optional, and it would be ridiculous to attempt to say that you have to follow a specific religion. Religion, today, is kind of like therapy; you can consult it about your problems and (in often times vague manners) it will provide answers and nudges at to what you should do. Whether or not this is a God doing the consoling or our own subconscious is another debate and one I could care less for.

So! Summary (as I doubt you read most of that above):
Religion is not useless, it had prior uses which were very good, but now it is an optional thing that most people that I know take up in order to feel good about themselves.

And, to reiterate, I am not a religious person at all. Hell, I don't even believe that I need to be a religious person to believe in a God. I still believe in a God and, oop! Guess what! I also believe in scientific theories, including evolution!

 

[13 Spider Bloody Chain]

However, its secular benefits could definitely be emulated by secular societies, but I don't envision nor truly want a world devoid of religion. Theism, on the other hand, I wouldn't mind extinguishing. :p

Why wouldn't you want a world devoid of religion, then? You said yourself that its secular benefits can be emulated by other things, so what use is there? Do you not wish for a world without religion simply because that's what you're used to, or is there another reason?

And what's wrong with Theism? 

 

[G36E]

However, its secular benefits could definitely be emulated by secular societies, but I don't envision nor truly want a world devoid of religion. Theism, on the other hand, I wouldn't mind extinguishing. :p

Why wouldn't you want a world devoid of religion, then? You said yourself that its secular benefits can be emulated by other things, so what use is there? Do you not wish for a world without religion simply because that's what you're used to, or is there another reason?

And what's wrong with Theism? 

Kind of obviously the "God created us" bits which are related to theism, and the "Kill because they worship another god" bit (They do exist, thank you). Or maybe also the way the ten commandments removes choice from the human scope of actions (Seriously, Buddhism [which does not advocate a creator god] goes "refrain from" instead of "must not").

 

[Worbah]

I'm going to write the same **** that I threw into the Finnish theistic discussion. Basically it all boils down to perception.

We've evolved into exceptional animals, but that is all we are. Hunter/gatherer apes with delusions of grandeur. Our senses are designed for finding food, warning of predators, etc. That which is mainly irrelevant to our survival remains undetectable to us. If you are stupid enough to say that what you can't see can't exist, I suggest you stop breathing, because you are only supporting this wild "oxygen"-myth.

Claiming that modern science has all the answers is equally idiotic, because we haven't come far from the "Oog make fire!"-days. What every stage of history has had in common is that man believes it knows everything. Sure, superstitions such as "god makes things fall to the ground" have been substituted with far likelier theories, such as gravity.

If there is a God, it would be omniscient and omnipotent. Thus it could hide its existence perfectly. Besides, what would be the point of a **** sitting on a clouds edge, smiling down on you? You'd be pretty stupid to object the perfect being whose existence is a certainty. In this instance knowing the purpose of the experiment would completely **** it up.

Nothing can be proved. Nothing at all. The whole world could be my schitzophrenic delusion. My beliefs? That's a tough one. I can only say that I'm not arrogant enough to make any conclusions based on my limited perception.

That's most of it, if I remember something later, I'll let you know.

BTW, even though God is possible, Satan isn't. If you believe in the existence of some infernal being that wages war against an omnipotent being, then tell me how? How is it possible that Satan defies an omnipotent God?

 

[iamahorse]

BTW, even though God is possible, Satan isn't. If you believe in the existence of some infernal being that wages war against an omnipotent being, then tell me how? How is it possible that Satan defies an omnipotent God?

I thought that people argue Satan's existance by saying God allows for him/her/it to exist.

I, however, think God just got really bored! (But no, really, I believe in Satan as much as I believe in the Boogieman.)

 

[Worbah]

BTW, even though God is possible, Satan isn't. If you believe in the existence of some infernal being that wages war against an omnipotent being, then tell me how? How is it possible that Satan defies an omnipotent God?

I thought that people argue Satan's existance by saying God allows for him/her/it to exist.

I, however, think God just got really bored! (But no, really, I believe in Satan as much as I believe in the Boogieman.)

Aye, I should've said that the existence of Satan depends on Gods will.

 

[13 Spider Bloody Chain]

If you are stupid enough to say that what you can't see can't exist, I suggest you stop breathing, because you are only supporting this wild "oxygen"-myth.

But you can feel it, use chemical analysis to discern it from other stuff in the air, etc.

If there is a God, it would be omniscient and omnipotent. Thus it could hide its existence perfectly. Besides, what would be the point of a **** sitting on a clouds edge, smiling down on you? You'd be pretty stupid to object the perfect being whose existence is a certainty. In this instance knowing the purpose of the experiment would completely **** it up.

And here many would argue, "But why would a loving God do such a thing? Why not come down and demonstrate that he truly exists, so that his children won't have to slaughter each other trying to figure out what he said when he wrote that stuff in his most holy book?" Or similar.

Nothing can be proved. Nothing at all. The whole world could be my schitzophrenic delusion.

B-but...logic...

Also, I think Archonsod would like to have a word with you.

That's most of it, if I remember something later, I'll let you know.

BTW, even though God is possible, Satan isn't. If you believe in the existence of some infernal being that wages war against an omnipotent being, then tell me how? How is it possible that Satan defies an omnipotent God?

Theists (or in this case, Christians) may argue that God "allows" Satan to exist for...some reason? I think some claim that Satan's there to test mankind or what not.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

logic...

Cannot be established without circular reasoning.

Besides, just because "I think, therefore I am" is all we know (if that), doesn't mean we can't make guesses, or set up a few assumptions and then make "educated" guesses which effectively amount to the same thing as some hazy concept like knowledge.

 

[13 Spider Bloody Chain]

logic...

Cannot be established without circular reasoning.

I'm not very good at logic, but AFAIK you don't need circular reasoning. For one thing, circular reasoning is a logical fallacy, so either logic works or it's the biggest irony I've ever come across. 

Basically, logic allows you to never get a wrong answer assuming that you start from a premise that's true. It's not supposed to do anything else.

 

[Humility]

I knew there is God, it's has to be but what and who is right? I have learned that's Religion and Religion Book has a flawed or error. I'm tired of this religion, it's never give me peaceful, but rather give me a madness, All I know is we should just try not to be evil at least, dont plan push more doing evil, just do what you has do in good way if you can. If God is truely Love and mercy than we able to other, I guess we should not worry about it, but on other hand if God is evil and hateful may be waiting for us to get more people (Mating) to make or allow us suffer or forget us and left us in darkness, well, we can do nothing about it. (I understand God can left us in darkness if we do evil, but why go ahead and make us in the first place then later dont want taken care of us(Food, anything on earth has been created by God and keep thing in order as well, not allow destory each and cause chao) (I dont support this one, I hope God is not evil, I hope God love us no matter what, if we do evil, he should just changed us (By changed, I mean feel good or desire doing good and not feel good or not desire doing evil) rather than throw us in darkness, hell, lake of fire, whatever that's make us suffer), But I dont know, How do we or evey living thing or how star or how make big bang got here in first place, how it's got here, and why it's has to be, I could go on, if person said no god, then I could ask that person, how we got here, how earth get here, I will keep asked him how it's cause thing created forever "It" can't created themself, it's has to be someone to created it because "It" has no mastermind or brain.

 

[G36E]

Humility is a thread breaker . Seriously, you need to go to Camp Formatting. I fail to understand the last few sentences too.

 

[Worbah]

If you are stupid enough to say that what you can't see can't exist, I suggest you stop breathing, because you are only supporting this wild "oxygen"-myth.

But you can feel it, use chemical analysis to discern it from other stuff in the air, etc.

Exactly, but it remains invisible to the naked eye. As does a myriad of things.

If there is a God, it would be omniscient and omnipotent. Thus it could hide its existence perfectly. Besides, what would be the point of a **** sitting on a clouds edge, smiling down on you? You'd be pretty stupid to object the perfect being whose existence is a certainty. In this instance knowing the purpose of the experiment would completely **** it up.

And here many would argue, "But why would a loving God do such a thing? Why not come down and demonstrate that he truly exists, so that his children won't have to slaughter each other trying to figure out what he said when he wrote that stuff in his most holy book?" Or similar.

[/quote]

What is the point of a God that nurtures and cradles his creation? What is a temporary life compared to an eternal afterlife? If God exists, then the world in which we live is nothing more than a test. And **** the bible. Any writing that has been translated over and over again and had **** just added to it can no longer be valid.

 

[13 Spider Bloody Chain]

If you are stupid enough to say that what you can't see can't exist, I suggest you stop breathing, because you are only supporting this wild "oxygen"-myth.

But you can feel it, use chemical analysis to discern it from other stuff in the air, etc.

Exactly, but it remains invisible to the naked eye. As does a myriad of things.

I'm a bit confused here. Were you arguing that atheists believe that what can't be seen doesn't exist?

 

[gamerwiz09]

Heres some non-biased related images:

隐藏: Christianity

隐藏: Atheism

隐藏: Middle Ground

 

[MountainBlade]

Oooh. I read this article ages ago and really liked it. Now, there are a few things I can't agree with but it's still a nice article.

logic...

Cannot be established without circular reasoning.

Besides, just because "I think, therefore I am" is all we know (if that), doesn't mean we can't make guesses, or set up a few assumptions and then make "educated" guesses which effectively amount to the same thing as some hazy concept like knowledge.

Logic requires a framework, which is not at all the same as circular reasoning.

Good guesses are nothing like knowledge, things you can know for certain. If I know something in the strictest sense then I should never look back at it. The only way it can be wrong is if I made a mistake in my initial reasoning.
If I very strongly suspect something then I can accept new evidence and see that it might have been wrong. This is a humongous difference.

 

[MountainBlade]

Heres some non-biased related images:

隐藏: Christianity

隐藏: Atheism

隐藏: Middle Ground

How is that non biased? It's clearly for the (incorrect) middle ground.

Also, I made an edit on the atheism one but I have it on the other computer. Hell, I'll make it again. Once sec.

隐藏

 

[Worbah]

I'm a bit confused here. Were you arguing that atheists believe that what can't be seen doesn't exist?

Gah, I meant that people who only believe in things their limited senses can "prove" are ****tards.

 

[gamerwiz09]

How is that non biased? It's clearly for the (incorrect) middle ground.

Also, I made an edit on the atheism one but I have it on the other computer. Hell, I'll make it again. Once sec.

Well yeah, but its not for Christianity or Atheism its for inbetween, so its not biased because its not favoring a certain side its favoring a compromise...If that makes sense.