[1.7.0] Battlesize & reinforcement issue

[Fistochat]

I know many threads about battle size have been posted in the past. Since then, I wanted to know if someone has been able to extend the battle size limit. If yes, I would appreciate knowing the tips to do it. Also, if there is a mod that works properly, it would be great. If I am asking for an extension of the battle limit, it's because reinforcements do not work properly at the moment. Here is why :

After some games, I noticed that reinforcements spawn in terrible areas. If for example, I change the position of my troops before the battle to gain a terrain advantage, meaning that I move from my spawn spot, it will not change the spawn spot of reinforcements because the latter will spawn where troops were at the beginning of the battle (I also noticed complete random spawn on the map). It makes reinforcements useless. The problem is even worse when you attack your enemy and you push it to his spawn spot (or sometimes, the defender do not even move from his spawn spot). In that case, his reinforcements just spawn in the middle of the fight. As a result, the outcome of the battle radically changes because you were winning it, but now you lose because you pushed further to a spawn spot. That is not correct, since you were supposed to win the battle in the first place. Either you remove the 2048 limit so we don't have reinforcement issues anymore, or you find another alternative.

There was Battlesize Unlocker, but this mod does not seem to work and has not been updated for months. I also heard about Battlesize but the game breaks when the limit of 2048 is reached. Apparently, a horse is counted as one separated unit so if you have 1000 cavalry units, it will count as if there were 2000 units and if somehow you go over 2048, the game crashes.

So finally, I was not able to find something that works properly. How should TW solve this? By removing the battlesize limit or by modifying the reinforcements system (or the two)?

Thanks in advance for your future answers!

 

[Julio-Claudian]

Last one that worked was this:

Kaoses tweaks

A collection of tweaks that aims to allow the player to configure Bannerlords to their own liking, options are configured via MCM menu. Most of the tweaks can be enabled or disabled individually.

www.nexusmods.com

It would even auto-adjust the size to account for horses and limit the number of horses that would stand around without riders. Doesn't work on the latest game versions though and there are no other working battle size mods.

 

[Fistochat]

Last one that worked was this:

Kaoses tweaks

A collection of tweaks that aims to allow the player to configure Bannerlords to their own liking, options are configured via MCM menu. Most of the tweaks can be enabled or disabled individually.

www.nexusmods.com

It would even auto-adjust the size to account for horses and limit the number of horses that would stand around without riders. Doesn't work on the latest game versions though and there are no other working battle size mods.

Thank you very much for your answer. It is well received because I did not know this mod! I hope the developper is going to update it for 1.7., I would gladly test it.

I find it very surprising that this type of mod is rare, I tried battles of 2000 with the battlesize mod, and it worked pretty well. Of course, sieges have to be limited to 500vs500. But for the rest, it should be okay to go 1000vs1000.

 

[Fistochat]

After some games, I also noticed that reinforcements spawn in terrible areas. If for example, I change the position of my troops before the battle to gain a terrain advantage, meaning that I move from my spawn spot, it will not change the spawn spot of reinforcements because the latter will spawn where troops were at the beginning of the battle (I also noticed complete random spawn on the map). It makes reinforcements useless. Either you remove the 2048 limit so we don't have reinforcement issues anymore, or you find an other alternative.

 

[CaptainFracas]

After some games, I also noticed that reinforcements spawn in terrible areas. If for example, I change the position of my troops before the battle to gain a terrain advantage, meaning that I move from my spawn spot, it will not change the spawn spot of reinforcements because the latter will spawn where troops were at the beginning of the battle (I also noticed complete random spawn on the map). It makes reinforcements useless. Either you remove the 2048 limit so we don't have reinforcement issues anymore, or you find an other alternative.

I agree at 100%

During my live stream, yesterday I found out that Bannerlord's current reinforcement system in big battles (more then a 1000 troops) is broken and it is even more broken with the new order of battle system of the 1.7.0.

Here I have 2 battles to show that:
This is the same battle, I'm out numbered, the first time I loose it and then I tried again to test the system and I won it.

1st battle:

I try to use the terrain to have the high ground and the best of my skills to flank the enemy and kill the archers.
I'm starting to loose the battle at the moment where the reinforcement start spawning as they spawn very far away form my army and behind the enemy lines.

2nd battle:

After seeing this I restarted the battle to see what happens if I don't care about taking a good position to fight. I'm just putting my army on top of the reinforcement point. (which is where are troops spawns when we load in the battle)
Here the battle is easily won... Even if I'm outnumbered in the number of troops that should be in the battle, I'm outnumbering the enemy on the front line at the moment the respawns starts on the 2 sides. The enemy respawn is far away, and all my troops are spawning directly in the fight.

The conclusion is that the new Order of Battle system don't work on battles with more that 1000 troops. It Is more important for a army to stay the closest as they can to their spawn instead of taking the high ground or any other terrain advantage they could use. As a Total War player, this makes me sad as I was so hipped by the Order of Battle and Battle Terrain systems...

I think that there are 2 ways to solve this issue:
1st: Increasing the BattleSize of the game to 2000 units with a system that would count every cav as 2 troops to prevent crashs.
2nd: the reinforcement system needs to change

 

[MostBlunted]

It´s not really broken if you surpass the limits that are set by TW with a mod.

 

[CaptainFracas]

It´s not really broken if you surpass the limits that are set by TW.

Taleworlds is not limiting the armies to only 500 troops on each sides on the campaign map. So we are not surpassing anything, just playing the end game with armies that can have 1500 troops each. The reinforcement system needs to change as a player playing with a 200 troops limit will always have this broken reinforcement system.

The possibility of increasing the battlesize to fix the reinforcements is only a solution for high end PCs

 

[IJIN]

CaptainFracas, nice videos man ?

 

[Fistochat]

I agree at 100%

During my live stream, yesterday I found out that Bannerlord's current reinforcement system in big battles (more then a 1000 troops) is broken and it is even more broken with the new order of battle system of the 1.7.0.

Here I have 2 battles to show that:
This is the same battle, I'm out numbered, the first time I loose it and then I tried again to test the system and I won it.

1st battle:

I try to use the terrain to have the high ground and the best of my skills to flank the enemy and kill the archers.
I'm starting to loose the battle at the moment where the reinforcement start spawning as they spawn very far away form my army and behind the enemy lines.

2nd battle:

After seeing this I restarted the battle to see what happens if I don't care about taking a good position to fight. I'm just putting my army on top of the reinforcement point. (which is where are troops spawns when we load in the battle)
Here the battle is easily won... Even if I'm outnumbered in the number of troops that should be in the battle, I'm outnumbering the enemy on the front line at the moment the respawns starts on the 2 sides. The enemy respawn is far away, and all my troops are spawning directly in the fight.

The conclusion is that the new Order of Battle system don't work on battles with more that 1000 troops. It Is more important for a army to stay the closest as they can to their spawn instead of taking the high ground or any other terrain advantage they could use. As a Total War player, this makes me sad as I was so hipped by the Order of Battle and Battle Terrain systems...

I think that there are 2 ways to solve this issue:
1st: Increasing the BattleSize of the game to 2000 units with a system that would count every cav as 2 troops to prevent crashs.
2nd: the reinforcement system needs to change

The videos here explain perfectly what happens with reinforcements. It needs to change because terrain advantage is crucial. The problem is if they set the battle size to 2'000, reinforcements would still need to work properly when you have more than 2'000 men on the battlefield. But this case is somewhat rare I suppose.

 

[Fistochat]

It´s not really broken if you surpass the limits that are set by TW with a mod.

There is no mod doing it correctly, because of this hardcoded 2048 limit.

 

[Ttauket]

During my live stream, yesterday I found out that Bannerlord's current reinforcement system in big battles (more then a 1000 troops) is broken and it is even more broken with the new order of battle system of the 1.7.0.

I think that there are 2 ways to solve this issue:
1st: Increasing the BattleSize of the game to 2000 units with a system that would count every cav as 2 troops to prevent crashs.
2nd: the reinforcement system needs to change

The possibility of increasing the battlesize to fix the reinforcements is only a solution for high end PCs

For me, it's the second option ; the reinforcement system needs to change ...

 

[CaptainFracas]

For me, it's the second option ; the reinforcement system needs to change ...

Yes a fully agree, the reinforcement system must change! Increasing the BattleSize would be very cool and nice but won't solve the problem

 

[Fistochat]

Yes a fully agree, the reinforcement system must change! Increasing the BattleSize would be very cool and nice but won't solve the problem

For me, it's the second option ; the reinforcement system needs to change ...

Yes, obviously it's the most viable fix. Any ideas of how to make the reinforcements system work properly?

 

[Ttauket]

Yes, obviously it's the most viable fix. Any ideas of how to make the reinforcements system work properly?

I know that @CaptainFracas has one ... and a good one

Me, I don't like the reinforcement think from the beginning. I don't know why but it doesn't feel realistic.
Instead, I will make "battles" like "rounds" depending of the ratio and the capacity of your PC.
Between each "battle" you can leave the battle, negotiate with your opponent or attack again. It's that case, with the ratio updated, you go back to the order of battle system.

I don't know if it's really clear, I don't know if it's more realistic or not, I don't know if it's playable and enjoyable (maybe too much repetitive ? specially with very big armies and poor PC's config) but I do know that it's easy to implement and it's my idea so I like it

 

[Julio-Claudian]

I know that @CaptainFracas has one ... and a good one

Me, I don't like the reinforcement think from the beginning. I don't know why but it doesn't feel realistic.
Instead, I will make "battles" like "rounds" depending of the ratio and the capacity of your PC.
Between each "battle" you can leave the battle, negotiate with your opponent or attack again. It's that case, with the ratio updated, you go back to the order of battle system.

I don't know if it's really clear, I don't know if it's more realistic or not, I don't know if it's enjoyable (maybe too much repetitive ? specially with very big armies and poor PC's config) but I do know that it's easy to implement and it's my idea so I like it

I sort of like this idea too.

But anything that prevents a situation where you push back the enemy too far and their next wave of reinforcements spawns behind your lines and you magically surrounded, punished for winning. Even just having them always spawn a reasonable distance behind the main infantry group or just the largest one would be an improvement.

 

[Horked]

I know that @CaptainFracas has one ... and a good one

Me, I don't like the reinforcement think from the beginning.

Gotta say MeToo©

I feel reinforcements should only be a thing if you have actual reinforcements (on the campaign-map) that is close enough to join the battle within a certain timelimit but too far to join the initial start. I understand why reinforcements is a thing, so to scale with the hardware, but I agree that there must be better method like for example previous mentioned rounds based on the hardware. I feel pretty much any other solution would work better both in terms of technical challenges (hardware, spawn points) and immersion

 

[Ttauket]

I sort of like this idea too.

But anything that prevents a situation where you push back the enemy too far and their next wave of reinforcements spawns behind your lines and you magically surrounded, punished for winning. Even just having them always spawn a reasonable distance behind the main infantry group or just the largest one would be an improvement.

Yup totally agree

Change the position of the spawn would be the first improvement.

So the questions will be ; Who decide, player or IA ? Where to put it ? When ? Before or during battle ? How many troops by wave ? The time between every wave ?
Many questions ...

PS : maybe this is not the good place to discuss about this ? Any thread already existed about spawn/reinforcement ?

 

[Ttauket]

Gotta say MeToo©

I feel reinforcements should only be a thing if you have actual reinforcements (on the campaign-map) that is close enough to join the battle within a certain timelimit but too far to join the initial start. I understand why reinforcements is a thing, so to scale with the hardware, but I agree that there must be better method like for example previous mentioned rounds based on the hardware. I feel pretty much any other solution would work better both in terms of technical challenges (hardware, spawn points) and immersion

Ooooh yes I also like the idea of reinforcement if there are others armies (ally or enemy) close to the battle ...

By the way, that would be possible with my solution after every "round" the others armies around the battle could be closer and closer. Until, maybe after several rounds (hours in game), they can join the fight !

Every battle would be much longer, for sure, but much more tactical too ... "Try hard" the map, testing different tactics with different type of troops, depending on the (evolving) ratio between the 2 armies and also, on what is going on around the battlefield (on the campaign-map).

 

[Horked]

Map size eventually become an issue, yes we have nice large maps now but they will still be too small for a battle of the scale we are talking about. Battle size will be increased for sure, sooner or later, I just hope that the issues we talk about will be taken into consideration once this happens

 

[swally0ne]

Yes a fully agree, the reinforcement system must change! Increasing the BattleSize would be very cool and nice but won't solve the problem

definetly needs to change but how? i experienced the issue you described aswell and iam not sure how to fix it. if the respawn is comming from out of border, the defender still has the advantage as he is staying closer to that. if the respawn point is centered for the attacker, then i could imagine the defender would be able to get behind the attacker respawn point or things like that. a round system would result in the same tactical approach over and over again and it wouldnt be an immersive feeling at all.
the only thing i can imagine is either smaller maps and/or smarter ai behavior to make the combat more centered. in mb warband it was common that the fronts were meeting somewhere in the middle of the map, that resulted in more or less the same reinforcement distance.
i could also imagine a smarter ai behaviour, making the attacker retreat/regroup to the respawn point after the first assault was not succesful, but that wouldnt solve the problem of the defender having troops spawning in front of his lines, instead of spawning them from behind.
in the end, all of these ideas have a downside.