In Progress 1.6.1 - Most clans are Poors or Very Poor - Lords have very small parties.

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Version number
e1.6.1.277126
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Beta
Modded/unmodded
No, I didn't use any mods.

Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
Summary: Most clans are Poors or Very Poor - Lords have very small parties.
How to Reproduce: Start a new campaign in 1.6.1 and after 250 days, everyone is poor.
Have you used cheats and if so which: No.
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Media (Screenshots & Video):

In 1.6.1 you have decreased the income from fiefs' taxes from 36% to 30%. There is another bug that has not been fixed yet in public beta, which probably is making the economy worse for the AI (the bug is present since 1.6.0 but with the fief income nerf in 1.6.1, it is now much worse):


This is a pretty gamebraking bug. Most of the lords are just able to sustain pretty small parties (60-90 men as much).

I have just uploaded the save game at http://upload.taleworlds.com:8080

File: Poor.save
Description: Most clans are Poors or Very Poor - Lords have very small parties.
 
Last edited:

uçanbiblo

Community Support
Community Support
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Hello, i have forwarded the issue to the QA team. Thank you for reporting it in and for your time.
 

Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
Thank you!!

Just adding more information, today we have received a hotfix which has fixed the issue related to lords disbanding/recruiting troops loop, but the issue is still in the game and if you start a new campaign, all lords rapidly go to bankrupt. I think that fiefs income should be increased again to 36% (it has been nerfed in 1.6.1 to 30%) or even to 40%.

Loot or other income sources could be nerfed in compensation, but fiefs income is the main source for lords and it should be one of the best income sources in the game, but currently it is not. The players are getting tons of money from workshops, smithing, battle loot, caravans, manual trading, etc, while the AI just gets money from fiefs and from battles (less money than the player from battles because the AI is not able to win so much battles like the player does). Please make lords able to manage their economy better.
 

Zorion_no

Regular
Thank you!!

Just adding more information, today we have received a hotfix which has fixed the issue related to lords disbanding/recruiting troops loop, but the issue is still in the game and if you start a new campaign, all lords rapidly go to bankrupt. I think that fiefs income should be increased again to 36% (it has been nerfed in 1.6.1 to 30%) or even to 40%.

Loot or other income sources could be nerfed in compensation, but fiefs income is the main source for lords and it should be one of the best income sources in the game, but currently it is not. The players are getting tons of money from workshops, smithing, battle loot, caravans, manual trading, etc, while the AI just gets money from fiefs and from battles (less money than the player from battles because the AI is not able to win so much battles like the player does). Please make lords able to manage their economy better.
This guy gets it.

I fixed the faction I joined, where I will go around donateing 20-100k to the lords all the time, so none of the clans in the kingdome is below average.
I earn alot from winning battles with the enemy and selling their loot so why not.

I also agree that the payout for haveing a fief is way to low for them, and as you point out they arent as good at winning as we are.

Also in part of the issue perhaps is that they tend to raid too much instead of forming armies etc(which they cant cause when you try to invite them to your army - they are below 40% of the max size and cant..)

But again do that give'em denars so the clans are on average or above(I think the threshold for that is the clanleader have like 50k denars)
 

Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
I have just started a new campaign in 1.6.1 after the hotfix, and enable cheats to take ownership of ownership of Sargot, Galend, and Talivel Castle (Vlandian ruler clan initial settlements), and this is the result:


As you can see, the Derthert's clan is getting a negative income daily without even take into account parties' wages. Not sure why Galend has this excessively expensive garrison. Maybe the starting prosperity for settlements should be revised, together with increasing tax income to 36% again, and maybe also add something to avoid the AI paying too much for garrison units.

On the other hand, I am noticing that after the hotfix, now lords stop recruiting if they are going to bankrupt, but they continue upgrading units, so the result is spending more money on these upgrades while at the same time they are disbanding units and keeping really small parties. Maybe would be helpful too if lords would also stop upgrading units if they cannot pay them.
 

Zorion_no

Regular
I have just started a new campaign in 1.6.1 after the hotfix, and enable cheats to take ownership of ownership of Sargot, Galend, and Talivel Castle (Vlandian ruler clan initial settlements), and this is the result:


As you can see, the Derthert's clan is getting a negative income daily without even take into account parties' wages. Not sure why Galend has this excessively expensive garrison. Maybe the starting prosperity for settlements should be revised, together with increasing tax income to 36% again, and maybe also add something to avoid the AI paying too much for garrison units.

On the other hand, I am noticing that after the hotfix, now lords stop recruiting if they are going to bankrupt, but they continue upgrading units, so the result is spending more money on these upgrades while at the same time they are disbanding units and keeping really small parties. Maybe would be helpful too if lords would also stop upgrading units if they cannot pay them.
I'm not sure on how the AI do it, but to some degree they need to have big garrison to counter "security" due to prosperity though.

Or the difference will be to big and over time it will tank too far - and then you end up with loyalty issues and boom rebellion.

The security is another topic (but kind of connected) and I think the number is abit too high in relation to prosperity(given that the AI tend to not deal with the issues that we as the players deal with (clearing hideouts).(lol in my play now I have no idea on how many times Tyal have rebelled since we lost it to Khuzait, Khuzait and Northern Empire is locked in a war with small burst of peace for ownership of the town).(I've not cleared the hideout that keeps on tanking the security, and add in the rulers being of different culture its endless entertainment(and also keeps those 2 locked in battle)

As for the wages, thats partially based on quality of troops more or less, and I tend to see that Vlandia fields alot better troops than Battania or Sturgia(since its mostly theese I've been in conflict with(well not Sturgia as I'm part of that).

As you can see from your pic the income from the town is way too low, should have been 500 to 1000 denars more from "prosperity" (tax pr person liveing in the city so to speak).
 

Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
Yes, I think we have plenty of issues here with AI clans economy:

1- Fiefs' income is too low compared to other income sources, while at the same time it is the main income source for the AI.

2- Loot, smithing, manual trading, workshops, and even caravans are way better than fiefs in terms of cost-effectiveness. A single workshop or caravan could be much more profitable than a castle if we keep in mind that we have to pay garrison wages, and we have not to invest money on boosting buildings. All these income sources make it too easy for the player to amass tons of money while the AI does not have access to these things. Fiefs' income is the last thing that should be nerfed for trying to nerf the player (I know that the AI also gets money from battles loot, but as said before, lords are not even able to win 10% of battles compared to the player).

3- Some starting values are wrong. Some towns start with pretty low prosperity values, while at the same time they start with a huge garrison which rapidly puts money, food, and prosperity on negative values until some garrison units get disbanded. There is no logic in giving a huge garrison to low prosperity towns which are not able to pay these units, and it just brings a lot of issues to these owner clans during early/mid-game.

4- AI needs some polishing. It is great that AI is now able to set limits for parties, but it should use this system in a better way. AI continuously upgrading units while in a critical economic situation should not be a thing. The AI is currently getting a passive XP cheat which allows them to upgrade units relatively fast. Maybe this cheat should be reduced now that notables provide higher tier units, and at the same time avoid the AI to upgrade units if over wages limit and critical economic situation.

5- There are some nice buildings and perks which boost the fiefs economy and reduce garrison wages, but the AI is not able to make good use of them. The AI should prioritize food, economy, and wages reduction on fiefs but it looks like it is not the case currently. Plus, would be great if the AI would select more suitable governors on key settlements to try to boost the economy and reduce garrison wages. It is nice that the AI plays with the same player rules but only if the AI knows how to do it correctly. If not, make something for allowing the AI to set a lord as governor, even if not present in the settlement.

6- Natables giving now higher-tier troops is probably part of the problem related to this new economy issue for AI clans. This change has been welcome, but tax income has been reduced at the same time in 1.6.1, and AI is not being able to deal with it.

As a side note, I have just created a new test campaign increasing the tax income to 40% and while it improves the situation, some kingdoms still have tons of issues in the early/mid-game. So, aside from increasing fiefs income, some extra changes are going to be necessary.
 
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