1.6.1 How do clans actually make money?

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Julio-Claudian

Knight at Arms
Can someone explain precisely how it works on 1.6.1?
In my game practically every clan was poor or very poor, recruiting troops and dismissing/losing them, armies unable to form because nobody had more than 40% of their party filled. I used a console command to give everyone 500k and parties were able to maintain a good amount of troops. 200-300 days later everyone is poor or very poor again and can barely sustain 30 troops.
It was never like this before, what changed?
 

Reiksmarshal

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
From what I am seeing fiefs don't produce enough income. I currently have a town and a castle and the income from them don't even cover half the garrison cost and I only have tier 2 crossbows and peasants.
 
I think most economical problems in this game stems from the daily economy. You either get poor very fast, or you get rich very fast. There is no middleground.
 

Reften

Recruit
From what I am seeing fiefs don't produce enough income. I currently have a town and a castle and the income from them don't even cover half the garrison cost and I only have tier 2 crossbows and peasants.
Yeah this needs to get fixed for sure....fiefs should provide much more tax $$$ and be able to support a larger garrison. Right now, my smithing is financing my kingdom.
 

Bloc

Archduke
WB
Can someone explain precisely how it works on 1.6.1?
Precisely like this
C#:
      if (clan.IsEliminated)
        return;
      if (clan.Kingdom?.RulingClan == clan)
        this.AddRulingClanIncome(clan, ref goldChange, applyWithdrawals);
      if (clan != Clan.PlayerClan && (!clan.MapFaction.IsKingdomFaction || clan.IsUnderMercenaryService) && clan.Fiefs.Count<Town>() == 0)
      {
        int num = clan.Tier * (80 + (clan.IsUnderMercenaryService ? 40 : 0));
        goldChange.Add((float) num, (TextObject) null, (TextObject) null);
      }
      this.AddMercenaryIncome(clan, ref goldChange, applyWithdrawals);
      this.AddVillagesIncome(clan, ref goldChange, applyWithdrawals);
      this.AddTownTaxes(clan, ref goldChange, applyWithdrawals);
      this.CalculateHeroIncomeFromWorkshops(clan.Leader, ref goldChange, applyWithdrawals);
      this.AddIncomeFromParties(clan, ref goldChange, applyWithdrawals);
      this.AddIncomeFromTownProjects(clan, ref goldChange, applyWithdrawals);
      if (!clan.IsUnderMercenaryService)
        this.AddIncomeFromTribute(clan, ref goldChange, applyWithdrawals);
      if (clan.Gold < 30000 && clan.Kingdom != null && (clan.Leader != Hero.MainHero && !clan.IsUnderMercenaryService))
        this.AddIncomeFromKingdomBudget(clan, ref goldChange, applyWithdrawals);
      Hero leader = clan.Leader;
      if ((leader != null ? (leader.GetPerkValue(DefaultPerks.Trade.SpringOfGold) ? 1 : 0) : 0) == 0)
        return;
      int num1 = Math.Min(1000, MathF.Round((float) clan.Leader.Gold * DefaultPerks.Trade.SpringOfGold.PrimaryBonus));
      goldChange.Add((float) num1, DefaultPerks.Trade.SpringOfGold.Name, (TextObject) null);

I don't have the exact code change but I believe the issue started to happen after they introduced the budget limit for player parties which probably started to affect indirectly their other clans. They most likely don't have a limit by default hence they continue recruiting more people even though they don't have gold to pay their wages.
Because you see that they are recruiting more people but then they are leaving the army and yet, AI continues to do the same and creates an endless poor-finance management cycle.
Pumping money out of thin air won't solve this problem either since spending logic is flawed. They have to check this carefully and trace back to main reason.
 

Eneas21

Recruit
Precisely like this
C#:
      if (clan.IsEliminated)
        return;
      if (clan.Kingdom?.RulingClan == clan)
        this.AddRulingClanIncome(clan, ref goldChange, applyWithdrawals);
      if (clan != Clan.PlayerClan && (!clan.MapFaction.IsKingdomFaction || clan.IsUnderMercenaryService) && clan.Fiefs.Count<Town>() == 0)
      {
        int num = clan.Tier * (80 + (clan.IsUnderMercenaryService ? 40 : 0));
        goldChange.Add((float) num, (TextObject) null, (TextObject) null);
      }
      this.AddMercenaryIncome(clan, ref goldChange, applyWithdrawals);
      this.AddVillagesIncome(clan, ref goldChange, applyWithdrawals);
      this.AddTownTaxes(clan, ref goldChange, applyWithdrawals);
      this.CalculateHeroIncomeFromWorkshops(clan.Leader, ref goldChange, applyWithdrawals);
      this.AddIncomeFromParties(clan, ref goldChange, applyWithdrawals);
      this.AddIncomeFromTownProjects(clan, ref goldChange, applyWithdrawals);
      if (!clan.IsUnderMercenaryService)
        this.AddIncomeFromTribute(clan, ref goldChange, applyWithdrawals);
      if (clan.Gold < 30000 && clan.Kingdom != null && (clan.Leader != Hero.MainHero && !clan.IsUnderMercenaryService))
        this.AddIncomeFromKingdomBudget(clan, ref goldChange, applyWithdrawals);
      Hero leader = clan.Leader;
      if ((leader != null ? (leader.GetPerkValue(DefaultPerks.Trade.SpringOfGold) ? 1 : 0) : 0) == 0)
        return;
      int num1 = Math.Min(1000, MathF.Round((float) clan.Leader.Gold * DefaultPerks.Trade.SpringOfGold.PrimaryBonus));
      goldChange.Add((float) num1, DefaultPerks.Trade.SpringOfGold.Name, (TextObject) null);

I don't have the exact code change but I believe the issue started to happen after they introduced the budget limit for player parties which probably started to affect indirectly their other clans. They most likely don't have a limit by default hence they continue recruiting more people even though they don't have gold to pay their wages.
Because you see that they are recruiting more people but then they are leaving the army and yet, AI continues to do the same and creates an endless poor-finance management cycle.
Pumping money out of thin air won't solve this problem either since spending logic is flawed. They have to check this carefully and trace back to main reason.
what a chad, they should fire the guy doing the sheep textures and hire you instead
 

Zyffyr

Recruit
Something that I suspect is exacerbating the issue is the AIs tendency to recruit beyond their limit while in a town and then immediately donate the extra to the garrison.

First they are spending money they can't afford to pick the troops up. Then the receiver gets stuck with a garrison that grows faster than the 'natural' growth and the corresponding increase in wages.
 
Man didn't TW say they patched this issue already?

First they are spending money they can't afford to pick the troops up. Then the receiver gets stuck with a garrison that grows faster than the 'natural' growth and the corresponding increase in wages.
Yeah and I bet this is made worse by the increase in t2+ troops notables have. So they're spending more money cycling through troops. Before they were spending 50-100 gold to snatch up a village's recruits, now it's going to be 200-300+ many times.

Pumping money out of thin air won't solve this problem either since spending logic is flawed. They have to check this carefully and trace back to main reason.
I hope they don't try to add more bandaids, already a AI is a bandaid mummy the does nothing but siege and raid and ruins any illusion that they are entities like the player. I wish TW would go back and re-do the AI's campaign behavior to make them be responsible and spend campaign time taking care of thier fiefs and eco. They need LESS ARMIES and more single parties proactively doing "Side-work" to support thier clan, not random instant chances to clear issues, spending time doing the issues and clearing hideouts because "that how the game world works".

They also need to be programmed to min/max the garrison for security/food with some profit on top and build the food upgrades 1st, no random chances, make them do things in an intelligent way!
what a chad, they should fire the guy doing the sheep textures and hire you instead
+100, save us Bloc!
 
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Nogand

Recruit
Man didn't TW say they patched this issue already?


Yeah and I bet this is made worse by the increase in t2+ troops notables have. So they're spending more money cycling through troops. Before they were spending 50-100 gold to snatch up a village's recruits, now it's going to be 200-300+ many times.


I hope they don't try to add more bandaids, already a AI is a bandaid mummy the does nothing but siege and raid and ruins any illusion that they are entities like the player. I wish TW would go back and re-do the AI's campaign behavior to make them be responsible and spend campaign time taking care of thier fiefs and eco. They need LESS ARMIES and more single parties proactively doing "Side-work" to support thier clan, not random instant chances to clear issues, spending time doing the issues and clearing hideouts because "that how the game world works".

They also need to be programmed to min/max the garrison for security/food with some profit on top and build the food upgrades 1st, no random chances, make them do things in an intelligent way!

+100, save us Bloc!
I wonder if the real reason for the prosperity nerf is so that one's territory being infested with bandits matters even less than it did before. The towns become impoverished from the banditry, but even a wealthy town can only fund the maintenance for 100 troops now so who cares? That way the player doesn't cause a kingdom to snowball in the early game by single-handedly ridding it of its banditry problem. At least with companion missions the code is there for NPCs to destroy hideouts, so maybe someone can make a mod that gives AI lords "sheriff" companions who go after hideouts and patrol around their fiefs, using their stats to solve issues.

I wonder if the majority of AI gold comes from battle loot, due to equipment costs being so unbalanced that the loot dropped by a T5 troop is orders of magnitude more valuable than the cost to recruit and train up said troop. It sure would explain why the AI is so aggressive, if it doesn't start a war every 5 minutes it'll go bankrupt!
Something that I suspect is exacerbating the issue is the AIs tendency to recruit beyond their limit while in a town and then immediately donate the extra to the garrison.

First they are spending money they can't afford to pick the troops up. Then the receiver gets stuck with a garrison that grows faster than the 'natural' growth and the corresponding increase in wages.
Is this why my garrisons fill so fast?
 
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Julio-Claudian

Knight at Arms
It sure would explain why the AI is so aggressive, if it doesn't start a war every 5 minutes it'll go bankrupt!
This is actually the case. It was said that Ai clans' main source of income was raiding so they need to constantly be at war.
 

Rush09

Regular
I did noticed that AI towns have a limit on garrison based on, I assume, the prosperity of said town? sometimes I would find shockingly small garrisons in AI towns/castles and wherever I tried to add more, immediately it would start to remove garrison. I assume it ties down to how much wealth said town/castle can create. But also, if a AI lord has its town/castle tied down to support a garrison, how can they field 10 parties and make money?
 

Reiksmarshal

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
Yeah income is way too low, I filled my garrison with tier 1 and 2 troops and the cost was 1600, but my town income was around 500.

An average town should be able to support a full garrison and a decent party maybe 2 at the minimum.
 
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