1.5b Spam Opinion

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Fietta

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Marquis
Just done a few duels with Alyss, and I wanted to do a comparison on momentum between Warband and Bannerlord.

Warband:

In Warband (as far as I'm aware), the momentum mechanic allows users to perform an extra 'quick' hit due to their speed from their first hit. In Warband you can 'double spam', after hitting a person's sword, I believe this is due to the attack animation being cut short (due to the block) so the readying and release of the weapon is faster, thus allowing for a second hit before the person with the block is able to return swing. To combat this trick, the person blocking would return swing by releasing the block, moving right and placing the hilt of the sword next the shoulder whilst looking down, this means that as you're moving opposite to the opponents attack (by moving right), the opponent will be walking into your attack (by moving left) meaning you can hilt slash the shoulder. In Warband you're able to return swing after being hit, so when the opponent deals damage, you can perform a left attack and deal damage (punishing them for being greedy).

Bannerlord:

In Bannerlord, the 'spam' mechanic works differently. 'momentum' doesn't entirely exist in the same form as it does in warband due to the slow readying animations and swings, so if you hit someone's block, due to the slowness of the readying and attacking animation, you're unable to perform another 'left' attack or 'double spam', as there's little block delay (which is good), they'll just block it. For some reason this 'momentum' applies differently to when the opponent is hit, in Warband the person who's been hit (if fast enough) is able to return swing before the opponent hits you a second time (if you're too slow to combat it then it'll hit you), whilst in Bannerlord, after you've been hit, you'll be hit consecutively until you BLOCK the attack, which means there's no other 'opening' or alternative way of getting a hit, you're always relying on blocking instead of having the angle and footwork advantage to be able to perform a counter attack.

In my personal opinion, Warband does it better, not because Bannerlord's one is bad or doesn't make sense, but doesn't allow multiple ways of combating techniques, so you're forced to go into a state of 'block hitting' until someone dies instead of using a momentum advantage to add extra techniques into the fight (you've still got feinting, but footwork and angles doesn't mean much in Bannerlord for 1 on 1 combat). There's no counter attacking in bannerlord.

Here's the quick very janky video showing how you're able to counter attacks in warband with angles and footwork (there's many more counters to different attacks):


As you can see, the opponent has momentum and can go in for another hit before I can hit him, however, I can also counter attack by using angles and footwork. Any momentum gained in bannerlord can only be countered with blocking instead of counter attacking which makes for pretty boring duels. Bannerlord momentum only exists after an opponent hits a player, you can't perform 'double spams' or any other momentum techniques outside of that, so it's pretty much block hitting with momentum gain only on a successful player hit (without any countering, you can only block).
 
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I agree with the OP! The only viable strat is attack, which removes the depth of combat.
 
Jeesus. I still dont understand how people like this kind of combat gameplay. Feels edgy, visually unappealing and looks retarded. I rather have slower combat gameplay.
 
Jeesus. I still dont understand how people like this kind of combat gameplay. Feels edgy, visually unappealing and looks retarded. I rather have slower combat gameplay.

Can only agree.

While it would be nice with some more depth, if Bannerlord had this kinda spastic combat I'd even stop playing MP, the only part of this game I currently enjoy.
 
in Warband the person who's been hit (if fast enough) is able to return swing before the opponent hits you a second time
Guess what, it is exactly like this on 1.4

Any momentum gained in bannerlord can only be countered with blocking instead of counter attacking which makes for pretty boring duels.
Guess what, in 1.4 you can do other things than just block

Just saying...

I said it somewhere else: Combat feels awesome on 1.5 but duels are boring.

You cannot convert momentum into a double hit on 1.4 but you can convert momentum into a kick.
 
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You cannot convert momentum into a double hit on 1.4 but you can convert momentum into a kick.

Which makes me question why doing a follow up hit is slower than starting and finishing a kick. A follow up hit could be blocked, but a kick has no counter in that situation and leads to a stun. That logic feels kind of backwards.

Guess what, it is exactly like this on 1.4

It's like this on 1.4 because it's basically "default". Opponent doesn't need to angle himself or have good footwork nowhere near like one should on Warband to be able to spam back right after being hit.

e: But to be on topic, yes, Warband does it better, but at least in 1.5 you don't need to circle strafe someone or kick them to have momentum. The concept could be improved, but it's much better than in 1.4.

(i really dislike 1.4 inf combat)
 
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Which makes me question why doing a follow up hit is slower than starting and finishing a kick. A follow up hit could be blocked, but a kick has no counter in that situation and leads to a stun.
Well you can dodge the kick, but its harder to dodge when enemy has the momentum...
Like fietta said momentum can be countered with movement to prevent the double attack and the same applies to kicks.
Opponent doesn't need to angle himself or have good footwork to be able to spam back right after being hit.
Could not be more wrong? So you are saying when someone hits you it is easy to just hit back? "doesnt need to angle??? The angle and movement is exactly what matters!
 
Can only agree.

While it would be nice with some more depth, if Bannerlord had this kinda spastic combat I'd even stop playing MP, the only part of this game I currently enjoy.

Spastic combat is what we had in Bannerlord until 1.5 and even now, it's not completely polished. What's the point of calling something spastic? If you don't like it, don't post meaningless remarks. Hundreds of people enjoyed and enjoy it to the point that they spend hundreds of hours perfecting their combat, something that couldn't have been done in Bannerlord until recently because of the low skill ceiling the game has/had.
 
Spastic combat is what we had in Bannerlord until 1.5 and even now, it's not completely polished. What's the point of calling something spastic? If you don't like it, don't post meaningless remarks. Hundreds of people enjoyed and enjoy it to the point that they spend hundreds of hours perfecting their combat, something that couldn't have been done in Bannerlord until recently because of the low skill ceiling the game has/had.

The thing is finding the right balance. Not everyone wants to spend hundreds of hours perfecting their combat. Some people just want to reach the celing a bit earlier and enjoy playing the game! I think you are pretty min/maxer, and thats where you and I fundamentally disagree.
 
The thing is finding the right balance. Not everyone wants to spend hundreds of hours perfecting their combat. Some people just want to reach the celing a bit earlier and enjoy playing the game! I think you are pretty min/maxer, and thats where you and I fundamentally disagree.

And that's perfectly fine, more casual approach is welcomed as well. You don't need to master the combat to enjoy the game, the same way you shouldn't hinder the ability of players to truly learn and master the game by spending up to thousands of hours. The only place where combat and game "mastery" is relevant is a competitive environment, you don't need to reach skill-ceiling if you are playing pubs mainly because most of the people play only for fun and not for the adrenaline rush and competitive satisfaction.
 
And that's perfectly fine, more casual approach is welcomed as well. You don't need to master the combat to enjoy the game, the same way you shouldn't hinder the ability of players to truly learn and master the game by spending up to thousands of hours. The only place where combat and game "mastery" is relevant is a competitive environment, you don't need to reach skill-ceiling if you are playing pubs mainly because most of the people play only for fun and not for the adrenaline rush and competitive satisfaction.

Completely agree.
 
Guess what, it is exactly like this on 1.4


Guess what, in 1.4 you can do other things than just block

Just saying...

I said it somewhere else: Combat feels awesome on 1.5 but duels are boring.

You cannot convert momentum into a double hit on 1.4 but you can convert momentum into a kick.

Wat, no not really because it's half RNG in 1.4, because of the movement being completely wack.

Also the kicks in 1.4 are laughable and are annoying to dodge (because they can still hit as youre moving backwards) and are almost unpunishable, it's no comparison. You're always fighting against the movement, not playing with it. The only reason you could 'do more' in 1.4 is because blocking was gashed with stupid infantry acceleration which allowed you to rotate around the player regardless of how fast they moved their camera.

Duels are now more like duels instead of clear abuse of the broken mechanics. Id like to have more counter play though.
 
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Wat, no not really because it's half RNG in 1.4, because of the movement being completely wack.

Also the kicks in 1.4 are laughable and are annoying to dodge (because they can still hit as youre moving backwards) and are almost unpunishable, it's no comparison. You're always fighting against the movement, not playing with it. The only reason you could 'do more' in 1.4 is because blocking was gashed with stupid infantry acceleration which allowed you to rotate around the player regardless of how fast they moved their camera.

Duels are now more like duels instead of clear abuse of the broken mechanics. Id like to have more counter play though.
All you say is true but kinda overexaggerated :smile:

I am kinda deep into the duel meta and when Im saying things like "kicks can be dodged quite easily" the inactive players tell that I have no clue what Im talking about... You simply don't believe me that dueling is really cool and balanced once you fully undestand movement and kicking right? Why is it like this?
 
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@Aprikosenmann
I have played it enough to understand how it works and the issues it had, which is why those issues were fixed in 1.5. People have used your own style against you - feinting overhead to right whilst rotating around the opponent to then kick because they can't rotate in time because of the in-combat movement and the fact even if they back off the kick would hit is odd. I'm not saying that you can't dodge a kick, but it's extremely unreasonable to suggest that the mechanic wasn't broken.
 
I have played it enough to understand how it works and the issues it had, which is why those issues were fixed in 1.5
Alright... But you could atleast have tried to learn kicking. Because being able to kick starts the process of understanding it.
It's like saying the move in your video is OP without even trying to execute it yourself. You think a Warband player with 80 hours has the right to say that double hit from your video is op and needs to be removed asap otherwise the game is trash?
 
I learnt kicks (although never used them because I know id get into the awful habit of kicking, especially when it was obvious they'd be nerfed) and played against kicks. You've got to realise that Bannerlord is still a mount and blade game, so my skill does translate over to Bannerlord in the sense of learning mechanics. I'm not going into BL blindly, especially when I've been playong BL since the alpha. You don't really need more than 50 hours to understand 1.4 combat, because it's half RNG, new players are trashing oldies because of the broken delays and piss-poor mechanics. The more hours you have, the more hours you've spent learning how to abuse block delay and movement, the poor mechanics can be learnt in like 2 hours of duel.

I have played in DM and understand how the combat works.
 
Alright... But you could atleast have tried to learn kicking. Because being able to kick starts the process of understanding it.
It's like saying the move in your video is OP without even trying to execute it yourself. You think a Warband player with 80 hours has the right to say that double hit from your video is op and needs to be removed asap otherwise the game is trash?
except kick was OP and got nerfed. The double swing had a counter on warband, and it required a lot of expertise to do it properly. Kicking was just pressing E without any risk.
 
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