1.5b changes will worsen captain balancing

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Cato.

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TL;DR: Almost every single multiplayer balancing change made in the new beta patch is making the balancing on captain mode even worse.

Most posters on the forums are Skirmish players that do not play captain. The new beta patch addresses many of their concerns (kick/pila, etc.), but the balancing changes are highly detrimental to Captain play. Almost every single balancing change I saw was to the benefit of Skrimish and was either netural or negative for Captain balancing. All strong factions were further buffed, and weak factions were further nerfed in the latest change.

The player base of Captains is larger than Skirmish, but our concerns are shouted down in every thread due to the higher hardcore Warband/Skirmish population on the forums. This leads me to believe that Captain players' concerns are taken less seriously by Taleworlds.

Please implement the changes that Ling has been requesting for months.

Weapon Changes
  • Javelin damage reduced.
  • Sturgia Harpoon damage reduced.
  • Billhook damage reduced.
  • Sturgia Throwing Axe stack count is reduced from 4 to 3.
Let's start here. While throwable weapons are very strong in skirmish, javelins are generally underpowered in captain because the AI is incapable of throwing axes and javelins quickly and accurately. In a typical infantry rush, one unit will be able to kill 1-3 units of 17 in a throw.

On the other hand, an enemy cav player can run through your jav-wielding unit and force them to pull out javelins in a melee. The effect here is that if you are attacked by shock after being hit by a horse, your unit will be wiped without a significant negative impact to the enemy impact. Therefore, in a competitive game, there is little incentive to bring javelins instead of an "inferior" perk like sword.

Reducing the damage of throwables (and especially javelins) forces captains further into a metagame of shock heavy units with no infantry.

Troop Changes
  • All Skirmishers and Shock Troop are slightly faster.
  • All Heavy Infantry start with a lighter, weaker tall shield.
  • All Horses hit points increased by 20.
  • All Heavy Cavalry and Barding perks armour reduced by 5. (Only planned for Skirmish for now. We will make adjustments after certain AI issues are fixed.)
The metagame of competitive captains player is currently 4+ shock troops with 0-2 cav/shield units. In other words, shock units are currently overpowered in captains. Ideally, the counterplay to this meta would be bringing an archer heavy team, but archers are typically not able to counter a full rush by shock troops. Increasing the speed of shock troops further reduces the viability of the potential archer counter, forcing every game to be a faction-dependent infantry rush.


Aserai
Summary: Aserai was already the 2nd weakest faction before this patch. This patch further nerfs Aserai.

Skirmisher
  • Range Javelin perk is changed to Axe perk.
  • Lighter Shield Weight value is changed from 3 to 2.
  • Better Javelin perk stack count is reduced from 6 to 4.
The AI is unable to throw quickly and accurately in a skirmish situation. The skirmish units also lose to both heavy infantry and shock infantry in melee combat, which mean that skirmishers are not currently a viable unit in Captain play. These balancing changes do not do anything for Captains.

Tribal Warrior
  • Default armour value is reduced from 19 to 14.
  • Heavy Mace perk is changed to Mace perk.
Tribal Warriors are already a bottom tier shield infantry unit compared to other factions' units. This change makes them even worse in Captains play.

Guard
  • Sword perk is changed to Heavy Mace perk.
Beduin
  • Move Speed value is increased from 74 to 77.
These changes do nothing because guards do not use one-handed weapons in melee, and Beduin is not a viable cav unit in Captain play.

Battania
Summary: These changes aren't enough to buff Battania. Battania will continue to be memed as a bad faction by pubs and competitive players alike.

Wildling
  • Extra Javelin perk stack count is reduced from 7 to 6.
This change does nothing for Captains.


Savage
  • Hit Points value is increased from 100 to 110.
While this is a "buff", the savage is still the weakest shock unit, and is a big reason why Battania is by far the worst faction in Captain. The issue with savage balancing is that they are simply unable to output enough damage to make an impact in a fight compared to other shock units. Savages will need both an armor buff and a weapon/damage buff to put them on par with other factions.

Oathsworn
  • Lighter Shield perk is changed to Improved Armor perk.
  • Range Javelins perk is changed to Stronger Shield perk.
  • Strong Javelins perk is changed to Javelins perk.
  • Spear perk is changed to Long Spear perk.
  • Bastard Sword perk is changed to Heavy Mace perk.
This is the only unit balancing change I saw that was a clear win for Captain balancing.

Clan Warrior
  • Spear perk is changed to Pike perk.
Mounted Warrior
  • Move Speed value is increased from 75 to 78.
Mounted warriors are not viable in captains play because their horses are easily killable and do weak charge damage, while the humans are both weakly armored and have low damage output. This change does nothing to increase the viability of Battanian cav. The clan warrior change is a minor buff that does not impact the overall strength of battania, and will not significantly increase the rate of unit selection.


Empire
Summary: Much needed reduction of Pila count from 2 to 1. Otherwise, we buffed the strongest faction in Captain play.

Menavlion Infantry
  • Hit Points value is increased from 100 to 110.
  • Pilum perk stack count is reduced from 2 to 1.
Menavlion infantry are by far the strong shock unit in the game due to the long reach of the menavlion, even before pilas are thrown. Empire is the strongest faction in a Captain mode melee in large part due to the DPS of the menav. The HP buff only makes empire shock units stronger in melee combat and makes up for the loss of the extra pila.

Legionary
  • Lighter Shield perk is changed to Stronger Shield perk.
  • Spear perk is changed to Long Spear perk.
  • Move Speed value is increased from 76 to 77.
  • Pilum perk stack count is reduced from 2 to 1.
Again, why are we buffing the legionary? They are already too strong compared to every factions' shields, except perhaps Vlandia.

Courser
  • Move Speed value is increased from 73 to 76.
Cataphract
  • Default Horse Maneuver value is reduced from 64 to 62.
  • Agile Horse perk Charge Damage value is reduced from 12 to 10. And the perks additional HP value is decreased from 40 to 25.
Okay, we made some changes. But why did we buff the infantry units?

Khuzait
Summary: Probably balanced appropriate for pub play, but made significantly less viable in competitive play.

Spear Infantry
  • Short Spear perk is changed to Spear perk.
  • Move Speed value is increased from 76 to 77.
  • Throwing Spear perk stack count is reduced from 2 to 1.
  • Added default weapon, Shortsword.
This is a slight buff to spear infantry because they can now bring throwing spears. Spear infantry is still weaker than all other shield infantries, which I suppose is okay if Khuzait is supposed to be a cav and archer faction.

Steppe Bow
  • Fast Arrows perk is changed to Strong Arrows perk.
This is nice quality of life buff, but probably won't do much because Khan's Guard is a much stronger unit than steppe bow. This will not significantly increase the rate of this unit's selection in Captain mode.

Nomad
  • Default Horse Maneuver value is increased from 60 to 64, Speed value is increased from 37 to 39 and HP value is increased from -30 to -20.
  • Tougher Horse perk Charge Damage value is reduced from 8 to 6. And the perks additional HP value is increased from 25 to 40.
  • Charger Horse perk additional HP value is decreased from 15 to 0.
  • Short Spear perk is changed to Spear perk.
  • Move Speed value is increased from 74 to 76.
Light cav is not viable for most factions, and this doubly so for Khuzait due to the strength of the Lancer. These changes will do nothing in Captain mode.

Lancer
  • Price is changed to 200.
  • Default Horse additional HP value is decreased from 25 to 0.
  • Tougher Horse perk additional HP value is decreased from 38 to 45.
  • Swapped Glaive and Tougher Horse perks. Glaive Perk now replaces Lance.
This is a significant nerf to the lancer unit. While this might be okay for pub games, this significantly decreases the strength of the faction in competitive play.

Mounted Archer
  • Default Arrow count is increased from 25 to 32,
  • Extra Arrows perk increased from 40 to 50.
  • Default Horse Speed value is increased from 37 to 39, Maneuver is increased from 60 to 64 and additional HP value is increased from -30 to -20.
  • Faster Horse perk Speed value is increased from 40 to 41.
  • Tougher Horse perk Speed value is increased from 37 to 38, and additional HP value is increased from 0 to 5.
Mounted archers are already underpowered because the horse archer AI is poor and tend to run into infantry units. While this is a slight buff, the real changes need to come from AI tweaks.

Sturgia
Summary: Minor balancing changes that don't matter to captain. The strong shield units got stronger. This is perhaps the only faction balancing change that wasn't questionable, and this only due to the lack of changes made.
Varyag
  • Lighter Shield perk is changed to Mace perk.
  • Spear perk is changed to Long Spear perk.
  • Javelins perk is changed to Stronger Shield perk.
This appears to be a buff to the varyag, which is puzzling because they were already balanced well in Captain.

Hunter
  • Armour value is increased from 6 to 10.
Raider
  • Move Speed value is increased from 73 to 76.
Druzhinnik
  • Default Horse Charge Damage value is reduced from 11 to 8.
  • Tougher Horse perk additional HP is increased from 43 to 50.
This other stuff doesn't make a difference in captains play.

Vlandia
Summary: Second strongest faction was needlessly buffed further.

Peasant Levy
  • Move Speed value is increased from 79 to 81.
  • Removed Bonus Damage to Shields from Sickle and Pickaxe.
Okay, but this is nerfing an already inferior unit.

Voulgier
  • Armour value is increased from 10 to 16.
This is a terrible change. Voulgiers were already the second strong shock unit. Further buffs were not needed.

Sergeant
  • Spear perk is changed to Long Spear perk.
  • Javelins perk is changed to Stronger Shield perk.
Again, Captains players don't use javelins, so this is a buff for Sergeants. Why are we buffing these units further?

Vanguard
Agile Horse perk Maneuver value is increased from 68 to 70, Speed value increased from 45 to 47.
Move Speed value is increased from 73 to 77.

Knight
Default Horse Speed value is increased from 40 to 41, additional HP value is reduced from 35 to 10.
Javelin perk is changed to Heavy Lance perk.
Okay, sure. Not a big change.

Repeating my TL;DR:
Almost every single multiplayer balancing change made in the new beta patch is making the balancing on captain mode even worse. Almost every single balancing change I saw was to the benefit of Skrimish and was either netural or negative for Captain balancing. All strong factions were further buffed, and weak factions were further nerfed in the latest change.
 
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So overall, youre mad that one of the best captain factions got nerfed (khuzaits) and youre mad that something you admit you dont use (javelins) got replaced with something useful.

I think that the two should have separate balances, but other than a menav buff I personally dont see why any of these would cause issues or even shake up the meta.
 
youre mad that one of the best captain factions got nerfed (khuzaits)
You clearly do not play Captains. Here are the round win rates for factions in competitive play.
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youre mad that something you admit you dont use (javelins) got replaced with something useful.
Please explain why buffing infantry armor/health and forcing units to bring swords instead of javelins/spears in an already infantry-heavy metagame is more appropriate than buffing a skirmish counterplay meta.

Also, please refer to my comment in the OP.
The player base of Captains is larger than Skirmish, but our concerns are shouted down in every thread due to the higher hardcore Warband/Skirmish population on the forums.
 
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Archers are even worse now. Fun. Infantry being faster really ****s up with archers ability to actually be used in any comps, and now that cav got a big debuff too, the archer cavalry combo is gonna be even harder to pull off.
 
These are all great points, Cato, though I would argue that voulgiers are THE strongest shock troop due to the fact that they typically beat menavlion units in a head to head fight assuming no throwables are used.

I am very eager to see how the MP team will handle the Captain Balance changes when the patch is finally settled in, I am a little more relieved now after seeing AVRC's comment about the talks of separating balance changes between the modes. I strongly believe if they choose to take this route it will be of tremendous benefit to both gamemodes.

Let's further test these new gear / perk setups in some organized 6v6s captains matches and we can provide some additional feedback to the dev team that can help guide them in the right direction when it comes to captain mode balancing.
 
I think that the two should have separate balances, but other than a menav buff I personally dont see why any of these would cause issues or even shake up the meta.

When you change things for a mode that is about how units interact with eachother en masse, in favor of a mode that is dedicated to 6 individual units vs 6 individual units you are going to see massive changes in how Ai units perform in a group.

A lot of the things Cato mentioned in his post are 100% true, Skirmisher / Throwing weapon units are not picked in captain mode, these changes only further enhance this issue and make them even less playable as a class. We are upset because they are making them LESS viable and not MORE viable like they need to be. 2-handed units, like the voulgier, and menavlion are seriously over powered in captain mode, on top of the menavlion getting a buff, the voulgier did not need an additional boost in armor and this will only make Vlandia a stronger faction than it already is. Nerfing peasant equipment only further limits the options of gear layout for your troops, as it is people spam 2-handed billhooks on peasants anyway and this change isn't going to solve that issue but amplify it. Tribal warriors were nerfed, and they are already one of the worst shield infantry units in the game mode, so It's not likely that people will choose to pick them much either.

I won't pretend to know what balance changes effect skirmish, I play captains mode, but these changes certainly DO seriously impact the metagame of captain mode.

That all being said, I am confident that AVRC and the MP dev team will work to solve these issues and create a better balance for all of us players. I am eager to see what they have planned next.
 
Complaining about captain balance on a non-captain patch doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Right, agreed. I was a little confused earlier because I had believed the MP 1.5 patch to be an all-encompassing multiplayer balance patch. I'm glad it's been cleared up though that we can expect a separate balance patch for captain. However if these changes are something that are being considered to also add to captain mode I still think its fair and useful to leave a little constructive criticism. But I agree we shouldn't be freaking out as this isn't the end of the world and will most likely be solved within the next few weeks.
 
Right, agreed. I was a little confused earlier because I had believed the MP 1.5 patch to be an all-encompassing multiplayer balance patch. I'm glad it's been cleared up though that we can expect a separate balance patch for captain. However if these changes are something that are being considered to also add to captain mode I still think its fair and useful to leave a little constructive criticism. But I agree we shouldn't be freaking out as this isn't the end of the world and will most likely be solved within the next few weeks.
I don't really have an opinion either way, but my understanding is that that all changes for multiplayer are universal. They apply to captain and skirmish because the devs decided for some reason it was a good idea to balance both game modes using the same stats. Unless they finally changed that, people on both sides are going to be fighting for game-mode specific balances. Specifically because "Skirmish oriented patch" affects both sadly.
 
I don't really have an opinion either way, but my understanding is that that all changes for multiplayer are universal. They apply to captain and skirmish because the devs decided for some reason it was a good idea to balance both game modes using the same stats. Unless they finally changed that, people on both sides are going to be fighting for game-mode specific balances. Specifically because "Skirmish oriented patch" affects both sadly.

See my quote from AVRC above. They plan to separate the two at least somewhat. Hopefully down the road they can just be separate modes. I think everyone universally agree that makes the most sense.
 
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