1.5 combat is a bit too oriented toward spam

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If they do so, they'll need to nerf kiting by making movement speed and attack speeds slower while skeying.
Maybe for Twohanders. I’ve never had an issue with kiting in swobo since 1.5.

1.5 honestly did an excellent job shutting down the kiting meta for Archers and Infantry. They can still get away from you if they want, but the effectiveness from doing so is largely gone.
 
The hilt spam is both easier to do and faster than Warband. They could slightly tone it down and still allow for an aggressive playstyle. As long as they don’t overnerf it and change combat fundamentally again it will be fine.

Part of it being easier is because of how wide the swings are, it's very hard to miss. Warband had a much narrower, front-forward swing which meant if you misjudged going for the fastest attack you missed and got punished. In BL, it's the entire weapon length from behind your shoulder to around even with your shoulder on the other side - and if you turn into it at any point along this arc, you get a faster hit. I made a thread identifying some issues with these animations back in October.

 
Maybe for Twohanders. I’ve never had an issue with kiting in swobo since 1.5.

1.5 honestly did an excellent job shutting down the kiting meta for Archers and Infantry. They can still get away from you if they want, but the effectiveness from doing so is largely gone.
I was mostly talking about duel. Kiting with shield is punishable now, but kiting with a 1h sword (current meta on duel server) is rewarded. For some reason pressing S+D or S+A makes movement faster than W+A or W+D. The worst-case scenario is if the opponent has a two-handed weapon because he'll just be able to outrange you by skeying rather than using skilled footwork to outmaneuver the opponent.
 
This is just turn-based combat which is the same problem.

Okey but we need another type of style. We cant have it look like old Warband wich was fun but looked ridiculous. I want this game to able to look good on a competetive level so we can attract an audience. For this the style of fighting cant look like a 12 people having seizures!

Do you have any suggestions wich does not include a super small cooldown and crushthrough?
 
Okey but we need another type of style. We cant have it look like old Warband wich was fun but looked ridiculous. I want this game to able to look good on a competetive level so we can attract an audience. For this the style of fighting cant look like a 12 people having seizures!

Do you have any suggestions wich does not include a super small cooldown and crushthrough?

Well, I think if that's the goal BL currently does worse than Warband because everything people disliked about combat in that game is present and more obvious in BL. People have to turn further into their swings, which makes fights far more spinny and counter-intuitive, and feints are less telegraphed and clear due to the weird vibrating people can by tapping RMB while holding LMB.

Some of what this complaint is based in is in the nature of both games however, so I don't think it's really going to be solved, just improved. If you want actually, consistent, readable attacks then you need to change the game entirely to become a fighting game, where specific inputs create specific animations that have specific timings. I assume we both agree that's not what we want, as there are plenty of good fighting games already, and MnB is the only game that really has this current style which makes it special.

The pay-off unfortunately is that because people can alter their swings, movement, and how they look pretty freely, it quite quickly becomes a viable tactic to look weird or offputting. See Mordhau for a more extreme version of this, where the entire meta revolves around forcing an opponent to miss-time a block by abusing animations (which is a skill-ceiling, not a criticism, just not for me). You can limit this with restrictive measures like stamina, a tight turncap, or slower animations, but I don't really like the idea of any of those, all you do is limit the skill ceiling and create a more restrictive, frustrating game.

The balance, for me, is to provide the player with the tools necessary to deal with that kind of thing - this is why I think Warband had superior combat, though still flawed, as the defensive inputs were clean and responsive, and attack inputs could be learned to quickly punish people who are doing the more crazy extreme stuff. I've noticed a lot of newer players looked at the crazy spins in Warband and thought, damn that must be how good players play, but the truth is that 90% of them get put down against people who can consistently block and who are no longer confused by odd playstyles. There's only a few players that look truly crazy while still competing at the top level, namely Tobi, who is some sort of genetic experiment gone wrong.

Regardless, it's a bit academic right now as I don't believe the fundamentals are in place yet, so until they are it's difficult to say what should be changed to make the game perfect at the top level as well. Warband certainly wasn't perfect in that case either, but it had its fundamentals done well to a greater degree than BL has, imo. (1.5 is a big improvement though).
 
Well, I think if that's the goal BL currently does worse than Warband because everything people disliked about combat in that game is present and more obvious in BL. People have to turn further into their swings, which makes fights far more spinny and counter-intuitive, and feints are less telegraphed and clear due to the weird vibrating people can by tapping RMB while holding LMB.

Some of what this complaint is based in is in the nature of both games however, so I don't think it's really going to be solved, just improved. If you want actually, consistent, readable attacks then you need to change the game entirely to become a fighting game, where specific inputs create specific animations that have specific timings. I assume we both agree that's not what we want, as there are plenty of good fighting games already, and MnB is the only game that really has this current style which makes it special.

The pay-off unfortunately is that because people can alter their swings, movement, and how they look pretty freely, it quite quickly becomes a viable tactic to look weird or offputting. See Mordhau for a more extreme version of this, where the entire meta revolves around forcing an opponent to miss-time a block by abusing animations (which is a skill-ceiling, not a criticism, just not for me). You can limit this with restrictive measures like stamina, a tight turncap, or slower animations, but I don't really like the idea of any of those, all you do is limit the skill ceiling and create a more restrictive, frustrating game.

The balance, for me, is to provide the player with the tools necessary to deal with that kind of thing - this is why I think Warband had superior combat, though still flawed, as the defensive inputs were clean and responsive, and attack inputs could be learned to quickly punish people who are doing the more crazy extreme stuff. I've noticed a lot of newer players looked at the crazy spins in Warband and thought, damn that must be how good players play, but the truth is that 90% of them get put down against people who can consistently block and who are no longer confused by odd playstyles. There's only a few players that look truly crazy while still competing at the top level, namely Tobi, who is some sort of genetic experiment gone wrong.

Regardless, it's a bit academic right now as I don't believe the fundamentals are in place yet, so until they are it's difficult to say what should be changed to make the game perfect at the top level as well. Warband certainly wasn't perfect in that case either, but it had its fundamentals done well to a greater degree than BL has, imo. (1.5 is a big improvement though).
I think its also fair to say that 1h top level duels in Warband didn’t look bad at all. The feints were far more readable and the fights were really fast, creating a lot of adrenaline on some occasions. On the other hand, 1h duels in bannerlord consist in: abusing a feint animation or skeying to outrange because you are faster when you skey.
 
I think its also fair to say that 1h top level duels in Warband didn’t look bad at all. The feints were far more readable and the fights were really fast, creating a lot of adrenaline on some occasions. On the other hand, 1h duels in bannerlord consist in: abusing a feint animation or skeying to outrange because you are faster when you skey.

Lol. Completely disagree. . See any of those fights. Twitchy AF. Bannerlord combat is much more enjoyable and better for the eye.
 
Havent tried BL MP since inception but after going back to Warband MP pretty safe to say that Bannerlord will be my go to SP game while Warband will remain my choice of MP
 
Here's a video I took that shows pretty well the issue with swing radius in Bannerlord. You can see me ready a right swing, and upon releasing, hit the shield of someone who is behind me and to my left. The literal exact opposite of the swing I am trying to do!!

 
Here's a video I took that shows pretty well the issue with swing radius in Bannerlord. You can see me ready a right swing, and upon releasing, hit the shield of someone who is behind me and to my left. The literal exact opposite of the swing I am trying to do!!



Good video. Yes, I agree, too wide.

Havent tried BL MP since inception but after going back to Warband MP pretty safe to say that Bannerlord will be my go to SP game while Warband will remain my choice of MP

Thats fine. We agree to disagree. I much enjoy Bannerlord MP.

That's a two handed duel, he was referring to 1h (one handed) duels.

Understood, but my argument/point still stands. Bannerlord combat looks a bit more natural (maybe its the improved graphics?) and less "twitchy".
 
No Bannerlord combats don’t look more natural on top level. It is just that the top players don’t duel because how bad duelling currently is.
 
Understood, but my argument/point still stands. Bannerlord combat looks a bit more natural (maybe its the improved graphics?) and less "twitchy".
This is like 99% animation fidelity and 1% because people haven't had years to work out all the weird **** you can do with BL's animations. The video I posted above is one example of some animation "weirdness" - but it is abusable. If the combat/animations of Bannerlord are left alone, I guarantee in 2-3 years (if the MP community survives that long...) combat will be even more "twitchy" than Warband; it will be mostly spin-based combat where you hit your opponent with the back of your swings (some duelists are doing this already) and other stupid moves, but unlike Warband will have little room for counterplay.

There are two big problems with Warband animations - first is that characters who look up/down bend their bodies at the hip/thorax instead of aiming swings up/down from the shoulder. This is responsible, I think, for the vast majority of complaints about animations, and some of the most disgusting looking feints ever created. BL is already miles better for this - so even with the responsiveness of Warband, this should be ok.

The second problem is harder to deal with: The animations (esp with greatsword) snap-to very quickly. That is, when you hold a left swing, and feint right, the sword moves into position almost instantly, with only slight anim blending time. As a player, this is awesome: My opponents feints are immediately readable, and when I feint my swing is instantly positioned where I want it to be. As a spectator, this sucks. I think a lot of the contentious slow-ness (block delay etc) of BL are measures taken to combat this problem specifically. The sacrifice? Controls and readability... Two of the best things about WB for any high-level players.

There is also a lot of wandering stabs/stab-turning in the Peter/Gibby duel, BL has I think mostly eliminated this already.

No Bannerlord combats don’t look more natural on top level. It is just that the top players don’t duel because how bad duelling currently is.
truth ^ ^ ^
 
All the people saying BaNnErLoRd LoOks MoRe NaTuRaL are going to feel very stupid in about 10 months unless some of the swing arcs on animations get severely toned down. Now that kicking is no longer so abusable, players are really playing around with how to abuse the animations and how wide they are. The swing arcs are so wide that extremely twitchy turns into your opponents faces will become the meta. Calling it right now.

Alyss and Sloppy are the only 2 I’ve really seen playing around with the concept in NA. I’m sure there are more I haven’t seen yet. I have an understanding of it but won’t be able to fully execute until when (if) they fix my controller.

We may need do something with the “winding up” for swings. Not in how long it takes to start a swing, but how long into a swing you have to be to actually do damage. Ideally you need to be at least 15% into a swing animation for it to register as actual damage instead of a glance, or have a curve set where the damage goes upward the deeper you are into a swing. A swing that connects at the very beginning of the animation like what Ruthven demonstrated should only be doing 1-2 damage, but have that ramp up as you get further into the swing.
 
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All the people saying BaNnErLoRd LoOks MoRe NaTuRaL are going to feel very stupid in about 10 months unless some of the swing arcs on animations get severely toned down. Now that kicking is no longer so abusable, players are really playing around with how to abuse the animations and how wide they are. The swing arcs are so wide that extremely twitchy turns into your opponents faces will become the meta. Calling it right now.

Alyss and Sloppy are the only 2 I’ve really seen playing around with the concept in NA. I’m sure there are more I haven’t seen yet. I have an understanding of it but won’t be able to fully execute until when (if) they fix my controller.

We may need do something with the “winding up” for swings. Not in how long it takes to start a swing, but how long into a swing you have to be to actually do damage. Ideally you need to be at least 15% into a swing animation for it to register as actual damage instead of a glance, or have a curve set where the damage goes upward the deeper you are into a swing. A swing that connects at the very beginning of the animation like what Ruthven demonstrated should only be doing 1-2 damage, but have that ramp up as you get further into the swing.
the curve is already in the game, 1-2 dmg is an extremely frustrating change, especially if "turning into the enemy" and crosshair control is the main difference between a new and a veteran. This means 1-2 dmg is legit a punishment for playing better

They could remove the hit collider from the first 1-5% of the swing duration and speed up the swing slightly in exchange, maybe this makes the animation more readable.
 
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One of the great things about the M&B fighting system is the way melee players can find new and interesting ways of exploiting the animations to fool opponents. I don't care if it looks goofy...it's fun, challenging, and ever-evolving.

Stop trying to take our glitches away. I swear most of the people on here just want the game dumbed down.
 
the curve is already in the game, 1-2 dmg is an extremely frustrating change, especially if "turning into the enemy" and crosshair control is the main difference between a new and a veteran. This means 1-2 dmg is legit a punishment for playing better

They could remove the hit collider from the first 1-5% of the swing duration and speed up the swing slightly in exchange, maybe this makes the animation more readable.
I don’t think you have fully seen the full extent that this can and will be abused. It is much much worse than Warband. The change I am proposing would make it much more like Warband.
 
I don’t think you have fully seen the full extent that this can and will be abused. It is much much worse than Warband. The change I am proposing would make it much more like Warband.
i have seen how stuff got abused in mordhau over time, but adding in intentional pokes is not the way. There will be rng moments where you just poke and its just frustrating. Furthermore, it will slow down combat, dont think this can be good for the game, it definetly needs a different fix.
 
All the people saying BaNnErLoRd LoOks MoRe NaTuRaL are going to feel very stupid in about 10 months unless some of the swing arcs on animations get severely toned down. Now that kicking is no longer so abusable, players are really playing around with how to abuse the animations and how wide they are. The swing arcs are so wide that extremely twitchy turns into your opponents faces will become the meta. Calling it right now.

Alyss and Sloppy are the only 2 I’ve really seen playing around with the concept in NA. I’m sure there are more I haven’t seen yet. I have an understanding of it but won’t be able to fully execute until when (if) they fix my controller.

We may need do something with the “winding up” for swings. Not in how long it takes to start a swing, but how long into a swing you have to be to actually do damage. Ideally you need to be at least 15% into a swing animation for it to register as actual damage instead of a glance, or have a curve set where the damage goes upward the deeper you are into a swing. A swing that connects at the very beginning of the animation like what Ruthven demonstrated should only be doing 1-2 damage, but have that ramp up as you get further into the swing.

Man I feel like that's been the meta now for the past week or so. While I haven't crunched the numbers or anything like that, I feel like especially for the larger two handed weapons their damage should fall off immensely after a certain point. A lot of the annoying two handed deaths seem to come from a fight happening twenty metres away where someones heavy menavilion has missed his target but swung around far enough to one-shot-kill you.

That wont entirely fix your issue though, as people seem to just spin and get you with the very start of the attack, and if that misses you still have to watch out for the after-swing lol. Guess it all comes down to swing arcs like you're saying.
 
@Moton one thing I promise u is that people will find, within the next year or so, new ways to abuse the bannerlord animations. The same thing happened in warband, people played more conventionally for a few years until they became more skilled and learnt the little quirks of this game. Even now you’re seeing some crazy ass feints at higher levels from those who play
 
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