1.5 combat is a bit too oriented toward spam

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Yukmouth++

Sergeant
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First, i would like to thank TW for working to improve MP. Patch 1.5 has been a great upgrade so far. The tighter responsiveness Makes the game way more enjoyable.

That being said, 1.5 gave birth to a new meta in melee : spamming swings. Basicly when someone just start Swinging and Swinging, it becomes difficult for the defender to counter-attack.

The speed at which we can ready our next swing has to be at fault. As soon as we land a hit we can start the next one with no delay whatsoever.

Suggestion : add a small delay for readying your next swing when your hit just got blocked (and make this delay a bit longer when its blocked by a Weapon instead of a shield), giving the defender enough Time to counter attack. This delay would be inexistant when you miss your Target + when you damage the opponent.
 

WMorton

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Completely agree, alot of people in KO are getting pissed off with the ability to double swing. It doesn't bother me as much as I think its just a matter of positioning to get out of it, though I have to put @Alyss in the hotseat because of his/her I assume his, ping as well as skill he is able to consistently double swing and stay in a stance/position that prevents a defender from opening up in time. Also will link a video that Alyss put up the other day that might help someone understand the situation.


Couldn't get the video to show but if you click on it you will see multiple issues, this one in particular shows a hilt glitch that Alyss found but it also shows the speed at which attacks can be released and as i said before with the correct stance and positioning it can easily be spammed.
 

Caps

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
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Its not a glitch its working as intended. Not sure if the defender will be actually faster than the attacker attacking twice in row if the defender gets the max stun duration of 0.8f and the attacker gets the lowest one like 0.1f. Probably would be enough to try up-attack into side and see if the defender can hit before the side.
 
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Alyss

Master Knight
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Completely agree, alot of people in KO are getting pissed off with the ability to double swing. It doesn't bother me as much as I think its just a matter of positioning to get out of it, though I have to put @Alyss in the hotseat because of his/her I assume his, ping as well as skill he is able to consistently double swing and stay in a stance/position that prevents a defender from opening up in time. Also will link a video that Alyss put up the other day that might help someone understand the situation.


Couldn't get the video to show but if you click on it you will see multiple issues, this one in particular shows a hilt glitch that Alyss found but it also shows the speed at which attacks can be released and as I said before with the correct stance and positioning it can easily be spammed.
You can reproduce the spam with pings up to 80 at least (idk for higher ping because I haven't tested it). Ofc the more ping you get the harder it is, but for pings going from 0 to 35, it's really consistent. And it's not just double spam, you can spam infinitely and the only way to get out is to outmaneuver the spammer with footwork or to shield bash him (or kick him). It's currently the only way to win a 1v2 consistently and even though I agree that it's kind of abusable (especially on average opponents because the counterplays are hard to master), but besides 2/3 players in NA, I haven't seen much people managing to spam like crazy so it would seem that it's not that easy to master.

EDIT: seems like my spam made your clan forget about decency and respect given all the **** talk and insults ^^
 
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MuffinMan

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M&BWB
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I don't see any glitches in the video? The solution to that is to tweak the animation sweet spot so its later in the swing and cause the early part of the swing to glance. He's effectively hitting you with his pommel and its counting as a blade hit. If they can make long poles differentiate between shaft and blade they should be able to do that with shorter weapons and pommels.
 

Alyss

Master Knight
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I don't see any glitches in the video? The solution to that is to tweak the animation sweet spot so its later in the swing and cause the early part of the swing to glance. He's effectively hitting you with his pommel and its counting as a blade hit. If they can make long poles differentiate between shaft and blade they should be able to do that with shorter weapons and pommels.
Hitting with pommel shouldn't make 25 dmg
 

Alyss

Master Knight
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Yes, the swing speed being so reliant on spins is insane.
Spins are a bigger problem than spam tbh. Because you can create a spin that doesn't show as a 360 for the other player. But more importantly, you can hit an opponent when turning your back, and it's especially broken with 2h, where you can one-hit someone without even looking at him or actually hitting him. The worst example of this is menavlion, where you get one hit even tho the opponent hit you with the wood of the staff or didn't even hit you. Sometimes, it feels like the air is cutting your character like some Fûton Jutsu. Swing arcs need a massive rework.
 

Mabons

Knight at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
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This and as Alyss and kel said the spinning and swing arcs are worse than they were in 1.4.3. Or maybe they aren't and people are just abusing them more now that they can't abuse kicks or throwing weapons. 🤔
 

sleepy dragon

Rebel without a clue
Count
WBWF&SNWVCM&B
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This and as Alyss and kel said the spinning and swing arcs are worse than they were in 1.4.3. Or maybe they aren't and people are just abusing them more now that they can't abuse kicks or throwing weapons. 🤔
Not a bad theory
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
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I've not seen any hits that can't be responded to; in fact I think the advantage is still in the defender's favour if they block.

The problem with causing too much of a delay to an attacker who has had their attack blocked is it encourages a defensive, risk-free meta, which makes it take a long time to kill someone and becomes simply a game of patience. This is particularly frustrating in the multi-class modes e.g. say you are in a 2v3, you have managed to push an archer and need to kill him quickly in melee. Without the ability to spam and put on pressure, what is stopping the archer from simply s-keying, blocking, and returning a hit every time he blocks a hit, completely risk-free?

Melee needs to have some threat and speed to it in a game dominated by ranged and cavalry, this creates a skill ceiling where excellent melee players can force kills in otherwise even or disadvantageous situations. The problem with melee currently is as people have pointed out - the arcs of the swings are simply too large, starting too far behind the player, creating a weird spinning visual that looks silly and isn't enjoyable, movement is still a little slidey and strafing especially feels like it's way better than everything else, and for me, RMB not taking instant priority over LMB still forces the player to be defensive and makes things a little stagnant.
 

Alyss

Master Knight
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I've not seen any hits that can't be responded to; in fact I think the advantage is still in the defender's favour if they block.

The problem with causing too much of a delay to an attacker who has had their attack blocked is it encourages a defensive, risk-free meta, which makes it take a long time to kill someone and becomes simply a game of patience. This is particularly frustrating in the multi-class modes e.g. say you are in a 2v3, you have managed to push an archer and need to kill him quickly in melee. Without the ability to spam and put on pressure, what is stopping the archer from simply s-keying, blocking, and returning a hit every time he blocks a hit, completely risk-free?

Melee needs to have some threat and speed to it in a game dominated by ranged and cavalry, this creates a skill ceiling where excellent melee players can force kills in otherwise even or disadvantageous situations. The problem with melee currently is as people have pointed out - the arcs of the swings are simply too large, starting too far behind the player, creating a weird spinning visual that looks silly and isn't enjoyable, movement is still a little slidey and strafing especially feels like it's way better than everything else, and for me, RMB not taking instant priority over LMB still forces the player to be defensive and makes things a little stagnant.
This is very true. I hate that the game promotes and rewards skey/kiting instead of complex footwork and risk-taking. And if you decide to spam them, you are more at risk because of the RMB not taking instant priority over LMB.
Also, am I the only one who thinks holding is useless in this game since you can attack faster if you release the attack instantly?
 

Moton

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I've not seen any hits that can't be responded to; in fact I think the advantage is still in the defender's favour if they block.

The problem with causing too much of a delay to an attacker who has had their attack blocked is it encourages a defensive, risk-free meta, which makes it take a long time to kill someone and becomes simply a game of patience. This is particularly frustrating in the multi-class modes e.g. say you are in a 2v3, you have managed to push an archer and need to kill him quickly in melee. Without the ability to spam and put on pressure, what is stopping the archer from simply s-keying, blocking, and returning a hit every time he blocks a hit, completely risk-free?

Melee needs to have some threat and speed to it in a game dominated by ranged and cavalry, this creates a skill ceiling where excellent melee players can force kills in otherwise even or disadvantageous situations. The problem with melee currently is as people have pointed out - the arcs of the swings are simply too large, starting too far behind the player, creating a weird spinning visual that looks silly and isn't enjoyable, movement is still a little slidey and strafing especially feels like it's way better than everything else, and for me, RMB not taking instant priority over LMB still forces the player to be defensive and makes things a little stagnant.
You are right but this is not the way to promote that kind of gameplay. Also it should'nt be a "stun" just some kind of attack cooldown, the blocked attacker should be able to block his opponets counter attack right away.

So I would suggest to just put a super small attack cool down to the blocked attacker, this would still promote an aggresive playstyle because the attacker can still block the counter attack and then attack him when he got his cooldown and then the dance begins.
 
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The hilt spam is both easier to do and faster than Warband. They could slightly tone it down and still allow for an aggressive playstyle. As long as they don’t overnerf it and change combat fundamentally again it will be fine.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
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You are right but this is not the way to promote that kind of gameplay. Also it should'nt be a "stun" just some kind of attack cooldown, the blocked attacker should be able to block his opponets counter attack right away.

So I would suggest to just put a super small attack cool down to the blocked attacker, this would still promote an aggresive playstyle because the attacker can still block the counter attack and then attack him when he got his cooldown and then the dance begins.
This is just turn-based combat which is the same problem.
 

Alyss

Master Knight
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The hilt spam is both easier to do and faster than Warband. They could slightly tone it down and still allow for an aggressive playstyle. As long as they don’t overnerf it and change combat fundamentally again it will be fine.
If they do so, they'll need to nerf kiting by making movement speed and attack speeds slower while skeying.
 

Nalgasucia507

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Its all good for me as long as it is not the twitching/twerking of competitive warband combat gameplay. I rather combat be slower than faster.