1.5.7 BannerJavelins

[Gibby Jr]

are you ****ing dumb lets make the math 12 javs per unit 6 person in team and triple spawn in round 2, this makes 216 javelins for team to throw and thing about it being aserai vs aserai == 432 javelins to throw in one round. Or think about siege or ****ing tdm that everyone uses low tier units. Do they test their ****work before publishing it? if not, why there is seperate patch notes for 2 versions of the game?

the numbers here are really put into perspective when you consider the numbers you might have seen in Warband’s matches.

in a 6v6 round in Warband only the Nords faction would be capable of spreading javs around to a large extent, but if we take a rather extreme closed map setup like 4 inf 2 cav and presume shield + sword drops for the cav to maximise javelins distributed, there would be 30 javelins in play. each cav can bring 3 packs of 5, there are two cav, so the most they can field is 30. this is compared with 216 in a round of skirmish. now you can say that it isn’t fair to compare the multi-life skirmish mode with the single-life battle mode, which btw is a fair comparison in terms of pointing out how a multi-life mode buffs things like javs by enabling new spawns to bring more into the field and to be able to loot more, but even if we detract the triple spawn and take 1/3 of 216 we arrive at 72 - still over double the maximum viably possible in Warband. i say viably possible because theoretically you could spawn 6 Nord cav with 4 packs of 5 javs each, which would bring you to 120, but such a setup would be without shields, lances, swords or class diversification - something which is needed in Warband for it to be viable.

if we remove any discussion of extreme setups and try to mirror it between Warband and Bannerlord with a 3 inf, 2 cav, 1 archer setup the result is still very different. in Warband you’d want 3 packs of javs dropped for the inf, totalling at 15 javs for the three of them, while the cav keep a pack of 5 each, totalling at 25 for the whole team. in Bannerlord, 3 skirmishers bring 12 each, totalling at 36 for the inf, and obviously can spawn multiple times within one round to increase the number of javelins in play exponentially.

what is amazing is that in the Warband competitive scene people thought jav packs of five were too large. yes, i think that 5 javs is too much for one person to have. in Bannerlord one person can spawn with 12. it is quite amazing how the decision to enable the prevalency of javelins in Bannerlord goes against a relative consensus in the Warband scene that too many javelins ruin melee and the class dynamic. why was that viewpoint and realisation, made through a decade of players’ experiences with Mount and Blade and melee games generally, not accounted for before making a decision which obviously - and I do mean obviously for literally anyone that has played the game - detracts from the melee aspect.

 

[AVRC]

We prepared a Hotfix to address the troop acceleration and quantity of Throwing weapons. Hopefully we will be able to send it out today but I can not guarantee as we are still working on the server crashes.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

This is a constant trial-and-error; let's cut this wire and see what happens...

It looks like you are going to release a hotfix to minimise the number of javelins, ok; however I wonder before releasing these patches do you guys weigh the pros and cons and other adverse effects?

We are back to the spam fest of July. Even though the game is still in development, no one disagrees; you've guys had 10 months of closed alpha beta period and 10 months of EA running around chasing your tail. I have serious doubts that you will manage to stabilise this whole balance and it won't fall apart again when you implement the third perk (aka passive).

 

[Silvernj]

We are back to the spam fest of July. Even though the game is still in development, no one disagrees; you've guys had 10 months of closed alpha beta period and 10 months of EA running around chasing your tail. I have serious doubts that you will manage to stabilise this whole balance and it won't fall apart again when you implement the third perk (aka passive).

This is so useless concern to share idk. They are clearly making good and bad decisions and they're clearly listening to the community on whats wrong in the game. There have been a lot of requested balance changes although they come with unwanted ones. But the current situation is easy to fix - they just need to tweak some numbers with hotfix and that's it.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

This is so useless concern to share idk. They are clearly making good and bad decisions and they're clearly listening to the community on whats wrong in the game. There have been a lot of requested balance changes although they come with unwanted ones. But the current situation is easy to fix - they just need to tweak some numbers with hotfix and that's it.

You know I am not referring exclusively to javelins. 20 months is more than enough time to have a solid MP infrastructure, which we don't have at the moment.

 

[AVRC]

This is a constant trial-and-error; let's cut this wire and see what happens...

Yes it is.
That is the whole point of iteration; making changes, play testing it, gathering feedback and making adjustments. Especially for a title that is not even released.

I can't talk much about the earlier times since I wasn't here but I believe lately we have been doing a good job communicating with the players and making more frequent changes.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Well, I'll shut up... this conversation is futile.

 

[Namakan]

Yes it is.
That is the whole point of iteration; making changes, play testing it, gathering feedback and making adjustments. Especially for a title that is not even released.

I can't talk much about the earlier times since I wasn't here but I believe lately we have been doing a good job communicating with the players and making more frequent changes.

Shame that more-or-less-rapid iteration wasn't there in Beta.

 

[Errayn]

Yes it is.
That is the whole point of iteration; making changes, play testing it, gathering feedback and making adjustments. Especially for a title that is not even released.

I can't talk much about the earlier times since I wasn't here but I believe lately we have been doing a good job communicating with the players and making more frequent changes.

what is the point of making iteration on the stable brach if it is not beta brach? If you need data about new changes you could write the forum about it and people gladly will give you feedback and data about it. "if you open beta servers and promete it accordingly (not in stable version) " You are just gaining more hate from already small community.

also why you make itarations on old desing that is already out of date, then please push broken 3 perk desing to the live now and we will disguss the new desing and you will gather your data.

You could be new (you are not) but you are not different from others. Same **** happened for when 1 perk desing changed to 2 perk desing and they balanced the 1 perk system untill 2 perk desing comes out then they did total change to all perks and they lost all of their balance changes in that time and you know what, it was a mess. that will happen again and you will lose all of your data again when you introduce 3 perk desing to the live.

You are not making something new with doing the same old mistakes. It is not the first time happens That javelin/skirmisher is being op and if you continue so, when you intruduce 3rd perks it will be like that. you are just losing more time with hotfixing/updating the old desing.

 

[DeathBG]

Aserai 4 skirmishers 2 cav new meta . I am sad because Heavy inf is even more irrelevant after this patch.

 

[Greedalicious]

First game: Died only to throwing weapons and cav, as infantry. (Fought against Battania)
Later: Aserai on Trading post. Died only to throwing weapons. I headshot 3 people in like 5 seconds before being pelted with jareeds and died. My kills had zero impact on the game since they would just instantly spawn again.

The insane movement speed of lower tier classes brings back the monstrous difference between classes and ends up becomming a game of Catch the man covered in grease which honestly is exactly why I play a game like this.
Can we for the love of god work on making the classes relatively the same speed so the kiting dumb****ery stops.

Fun times so far.

 

[Steelo]

First game: Died only to throwing weapons and cav, as infantry. (Fought against Battania)
Later: Aserai on Trading post. Died only to throwing weapons. I headshot 3 people in like 5 seconds before being pelted with jareeds and died. My kills had zero impact on the game since they would just instantly spawn again.

The insane movement speed of lower tier classes brings back the monstrous difference between classes and ends up becomming a game of Catch the man covered in grease which honestly is exactly why I play a game like this.
Can we for the love of god work on making the classes relatively the same speed so the kiting dumb****ery stops.

Fun times so far.

I totally agree. Same thing happend to me.
Its was like 4 guy throwing on me like a rain and throw animation is also so fast.

 

[Einarcf]

Not that I don't disagree that a number of the changes in recent patches have been poorly implemented, but again:
1. We need more than a day to form final conclusions. I for example was certain archery was destroyed after the archery rework, but learned to use it after 1 week of playing
2. Random skirmish games will always be poorly balanced. We need to test it out in clan matches.

I am pretty sure throwing meta is too strong, but we need to give it more time to test. (Ideally this would have been done with a beta branch..)

Cav *could* (it might not be the case) learn how to deal with skirmisher spam. Heavy inf and archer play*might* be enough to avoid the kite etc.

Now, this is another step away from the heavy inf enthusiasts' dream of primarily melee focused combat. And that is fine to disagree with. But don't confuse balance and fun. (Not saying everyone is doing that, but some are).

 

[EbdanianAdmiral]

This is very strange to me. Didnt we already have an entire month long debate that ended with all throwing weapons being limited in quantity and quality?

Its not like this is a new issue. It was something that plagued competitive matches for months and forced sweeping changes to all skirmisher classes. We had them in a decent spot where they served as a medium infantry that was more focused on utility and melee (and its not like they became *bad* at skirmishing. They still filled their role) than spam, but now we are right back where we started. Many of the spear perks have been replaced by throwing spears and javelin stack amount is right back where it was.

Please take past balance changes and why they were made into consideration when rolling out new patches, otherwise we will be going in circles forever. The melee combat is finally getting to a point where it is quite good, but stuff like this is keeping players away from the game anyway. I just dont get it.



Like it wouldnt surprise me at all if in 3 months Crush Through is reintroduced just for hecks. There is absolutely 0 point in even giving feedback or playing if any positive changes that are made just get randomly reverted. Stop it.

 

[MP_Erik]

We had death stick meta, yes, but the nerf was too heavy and the buff right now didn't bring them back to that broken niveau. Reduce the number of javelins a character can carry and all should be fine.

 

[Yukmouth++]

More Throwings means Inf get better vs Archers and Cavs, but more throwings means they get better against other Infs as well by bringing back an old meta that was cancerous and toxic beyond proportions. Once again the Infantry experience gets a huge slap in the face. Please make infantry enjoyable at once. Taleworlds is losing it. This is a medieval game, not a god damn Call of Duty 2 : Bannerlord.

Every patch TW does inbalances the game more and more for the sake of balancing all the games modes the same way. This needs to stop ASAP. Stop balancing the modes the same way. Every mode needs its own VERY DIFFERENT way of balancing.

2h needs to be better in skirmish, heavy inf and cav are strong.
Heavy inf needs to be better in siege/TDM, cavalry needs massive nerf, 2h are very very strong in siege/tdm.
Cavalry needs to be better in Captain while being too strong in other modes.

 

[Zarthas]

Again, Throwing weapons are the single biggest disconnect between Captain and Skirmish modes and I think by their nature they always will be. Catching a random javelin to the dome in Captain feels much different than being spammed in skirmish.

I'm a Captain player and team skirmisher for life, and even I feel a bit embarrassed lugging 12 Jareeds around.

However, I don't think this conversation can be useful in any real way until we split Captain and Skirmish perks. There will be too many players failing to specify too many things, like their skill level, play mode, team organization, and if they were literally just charging Menavs into Skirmishers on open ground and expecting to win like its still August 2020 (Saw it yesterday, player immediately started complaining about throwing...)

Skirmish/TDM/Siege players, absolutely believe you that this update screwed you. This update was I think *almost* right for Captain and just needs to be scaled back a little there.



I will say though, absolutely love Recruits now. They feel useful again, not overpowered, but if you play them cleverly you can actually affect the outcome of the battle again.

 

[Moth_Queen]

Aseri skirmisher has how many javelins?

I am sure it's an error and they'll fix it later. 12X is out of control, even the visual model do not correspond.

 

[hoonii]

Cav *could* (it might not be the case) learn how to deal with skirmisher spam.

You barely can, especially with light cav, when there are 5 skirmishers proceeding to pepper you with jereeds the moment they see you. Because they can run away from combat so fast, they just run and focus on the cav lmao.

 

[Zarthas]

Hehehe, if you take the Long Sword perk on Skirmishers, they get 8 Standard javs + 6 Jareed, its amazing and I'm here for it.