1.5.7 and beyond

[Olaf The Cruel]

Hi all,

As you all know, 1.5.7 is out. Even though it solves many problems we wanted to solve some issues still remain and I wanted go over some of them.

Crossbows
Crossbows are going to have further changes. The confirmed ones are increasing inaccuracy when jumping and increasing inaccuracy when making a sharp turn which involves the feet to reposition.
The remaining problems we want fix are crossbows being too effective at very close range and being able to switch between weapons and getting ready to fire too fast. There are multiple ways we are discussing to handle these issues and they will be taken care of in an immediate patch.

Cavalry
Cavalry stats have been reduced to lower the dominance of cavalry on the battlefield, but this creates the issue of them being weaker to everything rather than mostly spears, pikes and lances. The main problem is ranged troops being a bit too effective against Cavalry at the moment. We are testing some solutions to remedy this issue in an immediate patch.

Heavy Infantry
We expect the changes mentioned above to make Heavy Infantry much more relevant, especially against cavalry, and have some other plans to improve their melee ability further.

Skirmishers
There is some concern about Skirmishers being too strong this patch. We will closely monitor the situation and make adjustments as required.

Captain Mode
AI effectiveness for all range troops have been increased. If the result is still not enough following analytics and feedback we are looking forward to making further changes. We are aware that AI is struggling sometimes with Throwing Weapons, we are looking into the issue. Slowing Down bug is also on a Critical Level to be fixed.
There have been improvements to AI weapon selection and we are looking forward to your feedback. We are also starting to work on AI 'abuse' fixes and there are further AI improvements planned.

Balance changes that involve altering numbers or perks are much easier to finalize and hotfix into the live branch, as we have been doing frequently lately. However, combat mechanics related changes take longer to implement, test and finalize as they affect single player as well. That is why we are asking for more of your patience as we sort those out.

Let's not forget that this is a game still in development and we will keep listening to the community and making changes until both the players and developers are happy with the result. Feel free to bring up any other issues you want discussed in this thread, in a civil manner of course

Cheers.

edit: Also some server crashes are happening, we are looking into it.

Hi TW

I noticed that you did not talk about archers, but only Xbow balance. I really hope that TW don't think archers in cap mode are "in a good place" right now with 1.5.7. After 1.5.0 we played cap mode 4 months through 6 updates!! with completely broken archers. And finally with 1.5.7 they got new behavior mechanics. At first, it was a real pleasure and fun again to play archers. But, after testing them for a while, I find several things that makes it so so frustrating to play with them. Lets for a moment forget about their obvious flaws, like movement speed and accuracy, witch is way way way too low.

The nr.1 problem for me (besides their movement speed and accuracy, which is way way way too low) is their behavior when there is enemy units within their fire range. When I place my squad of archers, facing in a specific direction, I expect them to 100% concentrate their fire and damage in that direction. But, 1 single roaming rambooing cav can actually make my archers tk each other by just circling around them. Or it will make them confused and turn away from the direction I want to make them fire at. Before 1.5.0 archers would not do this. They would fire in the direction I've asked them to, and only turn around when the enemy cav or inf is very very close to them, in the last second.

The nr.2 problem for me ( besides their movement speed and accuracy, which is way way way too low ) is the time it takes for them to fire from when I hit f4 (f3f2), to they actually start to fire at the enemy. Witch takes forever!

So combining Low movement speed + low accuracy + confusion when enemy is near + with the time it takes to get ready to fire again = No fun at all...

I haven't seen any good cap mode players that don't feel archers need to be better in the game. And after you can make updates exclusively to cap mode only, no skirmish players will go into rage mode. So, what are we waiting for xD

Thx

 

[Zarthas]

The nr.1 problem for me (besides their movement speed and accuracy, which is way way way too low) is their behavior when there is enemy units within their fire range. When I place my squad of archers, facing in a specific direction, I expect them to 100% concentrate their fire and damage in that direction. But, 1 single roaming rambooing cav can actually make my archers tk each other by just circling around them. Or it will make them confused and turn away from the direction I want to make them fire at. Before 1.5.0 archers would not do this. They would fire in the direction I've asked them to, and only turn around when the enemy cav or inf is very very close to them, in the last second.

I was actually going to argue with you here, but I went and tested it, and I'll be damned if it doesn't work this way now. I also swear that you could effectively narrow their "field of fire" in previous versions with good facing commands. I did not notice when it changed, as I don't play archers for the many reasons discussed.

The obvious solution is to have the archers acquire targets nearest where you actually placed the "Flag" icon when giving them the facing command, so you could tell them to target a more distant unit or closer one, not just a a direction.

 

[Super Jew]

Hi TW

I noticed that you did not talk about archers, but only Xbow balance. I really hope that TW don't think archers in cap mode are "in a good place" right now with 1.5.7. After 1.5.0 we played cap mode 4 months through 6 updates!! with completely broken archers. And finally with 1.5.7 they got new behavior mechanics. At first, it was a real pleasure and fun again to play archers. But, after testing them for a while, I find several things that makes it so so frustrating to play with them. Lets for a moment forget about their obvious flaws, like movement speed and accuracy, witch is way way way too low.

Xbows is one of the great mysteries of multiplayer. They are terrible in captain, but great in all other game modes. I don't know if you play skirmish at all, but they clearly need a nerf more desperately than needing a buff for captain mode.

Problems with xbows in captain:

• Movement speed is slower than other archers
• Melee combat ability is the worst among all the archers
• They shoot teammates at a higher rate than other archers
• Accuracy

Possible solutions:

• When balancing the game modes separately make xbow units faster in captain mode
• Make it so that AI can't shoot teammates in same squad with xbows
• Increase accuracy of AI with xbows

 

[vfkaseke]

Xbows is one of the great mysteries of multiplayer. They are terrible in captain, but great in all other game modes. I don't know if you play skirmish at all, but they clearly need a nerf more desperately than needing a buff for captain mode.

Problems with xbows in captain:

• Movement speed is slower than other archers
• Melee combat ability is the worst among all the archers
• They shoot teammates at a higher rate than other archers
• Accuracy

Possible solutions:

• When balancing the game modes separately make xbow units faster in captain mode
• Make it so that AI can't shoot teammates in same squad with xbows
• Increase accuracy of AI with xbows

Actually xbows are the most accurate class out of all ranged classes. The problem is just their rate of fire in ranged combat. They just don't deal enough damage because of that. I feel like just increasing their numbers would help a lot already.

 

[Moth_Queen]

Is there a plan to fix turncap abuses and revert it to Warband level? Phasing hits are out of control, especially with two-handers.

 

[Olaf The Cruel]

Xbows is one of the great mysteries of multiplayer. They are terrible in captain, but great in all other game modes. I don't know if you play skirmish at all, but they clearly need a nerf more desperately than needing a buff for captain mode.

Problems with xbows in captain:

• Movement speed is slower than other archers
• Melee combat ability is the worst among all the archers
• They shoot teammates at a higher rate than other archers
• Accuracy

Possible solutions:

• When balancing the game modes separately make xbow units faster in captain mode
• Make it so that AI can't shoot teammates in same squad with xbows
• Increase accuracy of AI with xbows

About X-Bows AI in general. When I am playing normal archers, I actually fear going 1v1 vs x-bows. Because of their insane fire range and damage. And before any dev's want to nerf x-bows now because I "fear" them, STOP. Because its a good fear. I think X-bows vs archers are in a really good place! Because X-bows can open fire on archers way before they can, make way more damage and is super armored compared to them. The only way to "get em" is to use my superior numbers, and my faster fire rate. And that's why I want both X-bows and Archers to get same bump up in fire rate, so the balance between them will remain the same.

About X-Bows AI Accuracy and damage. I would like both archers classes, though all factions, to get the same bump up in damage. I don't mind X-bows having 90-99 damage....And when you use one of the perks with normal archers you end up making 14 damage with an arrow, and that is way to low, it makes no one want to use that perk. X-Bows long range accuracy should be a little better I feel.

But my greatest problem and frustration with playing archers atm, and prevents me from really testing their strength, is their behavior when there is enemies within their fire range 360 degrees around them. It makes them confused, they start freaking tking themselves and I can't keep their fire going in the direction I want to. It can be 1 single cav not even directly attacking, or a group of infantry in the distance behind them. The AI just act strange. I have tried to punish the bots that don't listen, but helps nothing

I really feel more positive about the development of the Captain Mode for the future. Because after we can "cut" the Skirmish community away from influencing and holding us back from improving stuff for our little mode, will every update from now on feel like an improvement and not a set back! And, I also feel like we all are one the same page with where we want the balance to go in the game.

 

[Roadpork]

guys guys
When we are talking about balancing please stop talking about classes.
What we want is balancing of gameplay, not balancing of cosmetic fancy titles.
So... I suggest the balancing should happen on things like: "Melee, Ranged, Scout" ...


Otherwise, the outcome will be:
Players: buff inf pls
Devs: alright, let them be ranged class. add more javelins

 

[Super Jew]

Actually xbows are the most accurate class out of all ranged classes. The problem is just their rate of fire in ranged combat. They just don't deal enough damage because of that. I feel like just increasing their numbers would help a lot already.

They will never have a fire rate close to bows because of the nature of what the weapon is intended to be.

 

[vfkaseke]

They will never have a fire rate close to bows because of the nature of what the weapon is intended to be.

Exactly. Which is why I wrote the last sentence in your quote my dear Jew.

 

[Yukmouth++]

ETA on Cavalry f****g off from siege ?

 

[flashn00b]

Considering how crossbows are currently balanced, I wonder if it'd be worth it for the Sharpshooter perk to have a longbow be his default weapon, with the medium Crossbow being a Perk 1 selection. IMO, there should be a price attached to the heavy armor they're currently equipped with because the Sharpshooter with the heavy crossbow is currently untouchable.

Having a longbow be his default weapon would at least give a window of vulnerability if an enemy is closing in on him in melee and isn't already pulling the drawstring of his bow.

 

[Flesson19]

we will keep listening to the community and making changes until both the players and developers are happy with the result.

that is tough to believe, question is taking 1200-2200 (depends on 8 or 10 social points) days to get 300 trade and "everything has a price" fair and everyone happy? I think the devs are, but a lot of dedicated traders aren't, so hard to believe that statement.

 

[AJAJP_Juan]

that is tough to believe, question is taking 1200-2200 (depends on 8 or 10 social points) days to get 300 trade and "everything has a price" fair and everyone happy? I think the devs are, but a lot of dedicated traders aren't, so hard to believe that statement.

Um, this is the multiplayer forum.

 

[Second[2]]

the game crashes almost every game after every game, fix it

 

[flashn00b]

Yeah, i know this thread is old, but I feel like the issues I have with Sturgia's balancing are still relevant as the only good units seem to be the Brigand, Raider and Varyag if you're crazy enough to waste 6 respawns worth of Brigands. https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/any-possibility-for-a-sturgia-buff.436786/

Then again, i doubt TaleWorlds has any plans on buffing Sturgia since they seem insistent on keeping them in the F tier

 

[Jesus__is__Lord]

thank you for all your hard work,
i would like to hurry through this phase of the game and get straight to custom servers
i do not like the weapon/armor/mount restrictions and the class system in general

i know you are trying something new so good luck, but i completely disagree with your restrictions on choices,
i think having no classes are a good thing, it encourages players to choose their own fighting style and not be limited in only 1 role and therefore be vulnerable to other predetermined classes,

heavy infantry are the most underpowered combatant on the battlefield bc this game has taken the only thing they had on every other combatant,
their speed,
speed is very important in melee combat and having shields carry a speed penalty totally strips them of their only advantage,

shields should have a speed penalty but quivers/throwing weapons should also have a speed penalty that makes them slower then infantry shield bearers

horses having alot of hp and archers being faster then shield bearers has lead to infantry being useless in combat,
reduce horse hp

making all stats and equipment selection universal would solve this, along with making armor realisticly deflecting arrows so range isnt meta

 

[KSHMR]

thank you for all your hard work,
i would like to hurry through this phase of the game and get straight to custom servers
i do not like the weapon/armor/mount restrictions and the class system in general

i know you are trying something new so good luck, but i completely disagree with your restrictions on choices,
i think having no classes are a good thing, it encourages players to choose their own fighting style and not be limited in only 1 role and therefore be vulnerable to other predetermined classes,

heavy infantry are the most underpowered combatant on the battlefield bc this game has taken the only thing they had on every other combatant,
their speed,
speed is very important in melee combat and having shields carry a speed penalty totally strips them of their only advantage,

shields should have a speed penalty but quivers/throwing weapons should also have a speed penalty that makes them slower then infantry shield bearers

horses having alot of hp and archers being faster then shield bearers has lead to infantry being useless in combat,
reduce horse hp

making all stats and equipment selection universal would solve this, along with making armor realisticly deflecting arrows so range isnt meta

The choosing exists in two ways to go about the continuation of Bannerlord development. The first, the latter as you suggested, would mean entirely overhauling the game and thereby letting a lot of class system balance efforts go to waste. TaleWorlds have set their focus on a Native with class system and has been making various changes to make this a more enjoyable experience. The second option entails simply continuing with what they have and try to make the best of a game that is doomed to fail horrendously. With every dawning day, the game loses more of its playersbase, many of which are not going to return unless Modders completely overhaul the experience, bringing the players what they really want. A beautiful game was promised to the players, and yet here we are: witnessing how a bunch of self-absorbed push through their one and only vision for the game, entirely disregarding the feedback of the mass.

 

[Jesus__is__Lord]

The choosing exists in two ways to go about the continuation of Bannerlord development. The first, the latter as you suggested, would mean entirely overhauling the game and thereby letting a lot of class system balance efforts go to waste. TaleWorlds have set their focus on a Native with class system and has been making various changes to make this a more enjoyable experience. The second option entails simply continuing with what they have and try to make the best of a game that is doomed to fail horrendously. With every dawning day, the game loses more of its playersbase, many of which are not going to return unless Modders completely overhaul the experience, bringing the players what they really want. A beautiful game was promised to the players, and yet here we are: witnessing how a bunch of self-absorbed push through their one and only vision for the game, entirely disregarding the feedback of the mass.

im sure there are developers that wanted the old warband system for bannerlord, but a higher up ignored them,

taleworlds is still creating the only game im excited to play and im excited for whatever game they decide to release,

yes all their class system work will just go to waste when custom servers come out and people just go to those custom servers instead,

i think the class system was meant for captain mode, and i think everything else did not matter to them as much,
most of this game is single player and most low skill players flock to captain mode, which would be the majority of players coming to the series

good luck with this weird system you have going, hope you get all the data from this weird class locked combat that we are forced to play for the next year or so,

i will gladly wait for custom servers to get the game i was waiting for,

thank you for all your hard work taleworlds,

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

i think the class system was meant for captain mode, and i think everything else did not matter to them as much,
most of this game is single player and most low skill players flock to captain mode, which would be the majority of players coming to the series

Dunno if this is true, I would think most noobies and casuals would go to Siege and any large scale battle style modes, the attraction is not commanding bots against other players, but actually taking part in a massively multiplayer style battle. Maybe some stats prove that wrong but that has always been my assumption from both Warband and BL.

I think the idea of the class sytem was to make things easier to balance, easier for noobs to pick an effective troop, and to make things consistent across all game modes.

This has failed on at least 2 out of 3, as it's proving harder to balance and they're already (rightly) making different balance adjustments depending on game mode. I would argue it hasn't really made it easier for noobs either, as there is still certainly good and bad troops, and good and bad perk combinations.

 

[Zarthas]

Dunno if this is true, I would think most noobies and casuals would go to Siege and any large scale battle style modes, the attraction is not commanding bots against other players, but actually taking part in a massively multiplayer style battle. Maybe some stats prove that wrong but that has always been my assumption from both Warband and BL.

I think the idea of the class sytem was to make things easier to balance, easier for noobs to pick an effective troop, and to make things consistent across all game modes.

This has failed on at least 2 out of 3, as it's proving harder to balance and they're already (rightly) making different balance adjustments depending on game mode. I would argue it hasn't really made it easier for noobs either, as there is still certainly good and bad troops, and good and bad perk combinations.

I kind of try to stay out of the Class System discussions, since we're like 7 years too far into the development cycle to do anything about it now, but the biggest glaring flaw with it is how many Perk combinations are just "wrong".
It makes Captain mode especially rough for newbies when they don't realize there's actually only 2 combinations per class that are not "wrong", and 2-3 combinations per class that actually make you instantly lose the match in some cases. Its been that way since EA launched.
The Warband-style equip system certainly allowed you to make suboptimal loadouts, but at least it was your fault then and there was an obvious benefit to the flexibility.