[1.5.6) What are the most profitable workshops?

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After several tries, I really can't figure out which workshops make the most money.
What are your best workshop choices?
I need your help :xf-frown:
 

Pejot

Sergeant Knight
WBVC
After several tries, I really can't figure out which workshops make the most money.
What are your best workshop choices?
I need your help :xf-frown:

Best I made in 1.5.6 was 250 denars from brewery in Pravend. Workshops are nerfed so much that they will never be a decent income source. You can keep them as additional but never main. Same goes for caravans in 1.5.6 and fiefs. The only main income source right now is loot so grab a lot before peacetime if You don't want to run around after bandit parties
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
After several tries, I really can't figure out which workshops make the most money.
What are your best workshop choices?
I need your help :xf-frown:

Same as it has been since August: Wool Weaveries in the east. Towns consistently buy and consume their output, even with 0 luxury modifier.
 
All right, too bad the income is so low, it's hard to make me a proper army. I will have to go through war and loots.
Thanks for your answers :smile:
 

mexxico

Sergeant Knight
Continue investing money on workshops (if you have more than 20-30K) they will be more profitable at 1.5.7, a small bug decreased their profit in 1.5.6 to 100 (as daily average) from 200 (as daily average). While building a workshop check input item's price at town's marketplace and production type of around villages.
 

a_ver_est

Knight
Continue investing money on workshops (if you have more than 20-30K) they will be more profitable at 1.5.7, a small bug decreased their profit in 1.5.6 to 100 (as daily average) from 200 (as daily average). While building a workshop check input item's price at town's marketplace and production type of around villages.

To be honest, I think that the economy system that TW is building is great ,complex and hard to master... I mean you have villages producing stuff, markets, caravans, workshoops, trading, etc everything interconnected, looks nice. But the bennefits you get from all this economic structure are reallly low and when you are short of money you just need to fight some big battles and problem resolved even you don't need the unbalanced smithing.

So why to put efforts in such complex economic model when the player is mostly going to ignore it as money source and just dosome fights to earn money when he needs? I mean, I understood that battles are the core of the game and should be rewarding of course but then why everything else?
 

Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
Wool Weaveries are still pretty profitable. You can get a pretty profitable one in Galend, Tyal, southern Empire towns and if I remember correctly, in some Khuzaits towns too.


Continue investing money on workshops (if you have more than 20-30K) they will be more profitable at 1.5.7, a small bug decreased their profit in 1.5.6 to 100 (as daily average) from 200 (as daily average). While building a workshop check input item's price at town's marketplace and production type of around villages.

Thanks! 200 daily average again would be great.
 

mexxico

Sergeant Knight
To be honest, I think that the economy system that TW is building is great ,complex and hard to master... I mean you have villages producing stuff, markets, caravans, workshoops, trading, etc everything interconnected, looks nice. But the bennefits you get from all this economic structure are reallly low and when you are short of money you just need to fight some big battles and problem resolved even you don't need the unbalanced smithing.

So why to put efforts in such complex economic model when the player is mostly going to ignore it as money source and just dosome fights to earn money when he needs? I mean, I understood that battles are the core of the game and should be rewarding of course but then why everything else?

Thanks you made a good analsys about economy system at game. Yes we tried to achieve that connection of world elements to create all world economy. So caravans - villagers - workshops - looters all are somehow connected and they are making money from all real actions. So if a bandit hideout appeared near a village its tax and connected town's workshops are all effected. If you loot these looters which looted your villagers / caravan you get more money plundered.

About your critisism yes currently income from these sources are low. One caravan is making 300 per day, one workshop is making 100 per day (normally make 200 per day, 1.5.6 is buggy about this) one village makes 100-200-300 per day according to production type and hearth level. These are not big numbers you are right. However these numbers are what they need to be actually. If players get money by selling loot stuff mostly it seems looting brings more than it should or if there is an exploit at smithing it is broken and this need to be fixed asap (unfortunately it is broken since EA started). Because other income sources are more powerfull we cannot make one 15K invested workshop / caravan to bring back 0.5-1K daily. If this is the case you will get your money back in only 15 days (1 game season). In real world nothing works like that. Any investment does not bring its cost in less than a year. Ok we are not trying to make game a real world simulator of course (it does not seem entertaining if we try to do this) but imo if one caravan or workshop pay back its investment in 20-30 game days this is not a good design. Currently game is not totally balanced so incomes from economical elements can be seem weak because of this maybe.

Sometimes a player place 200 tier-5 elite troops to a castle garrison which has less prosperity. Then he want caravan or workshops to pay his daily wages somehow. When this does not happen and when he goes bankrupt he gets anger. However player should not stack 200 elite troops to a castle garrison or should not upgrade his troops if has no money enough also out of topic I accept castles should be more strategical fiefs because their economical benefits are already weak. They have no military or economical benefit currently. This is something we need to fix. If we make general game economy balanced and if we can offer player alternative solutions to his problems then there will be no need to increase caravan workshop profits, daily 200 average (workshop)- 300/400 average (caravan) will be reasonable.

One last addition : Because all world elements are connected somehow any one new addition can damage workshop / caravan profits. For example cavalry ratio speed bonus will be reduced to 40% from 60% in 1.5.7 to make overall world balance and gameplay better / reduce OP of Khuzaits (their cavalry ratio is higher than other factions). This reduce at speed bonus of cavalry ratio increased daily cavalry loss ratio 1% from 0.5% (no enemy case). Because caravans have high cavalry ratio and they were faster when this bonus was 60%. Like in this example even we did not change anything about how caravans work their expected ROI (return of investment) and average life on map is reduced. So in some patches these profit expectations can be broken but we will fix them when we see it. What happened workshops in 1.5.6 is something like this. Also I see that caravan problem before it is released and give caravans a small speed bonus to keep average daily caravan loss ratio at 0.5% at 1.5.7.
 
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Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
200 average per workshop, and 300-400 average per caravan daily is pretty good IMO. We can get 4 workshops and 2 caravans pretty fast (tier 3 clan can be achieved at day 100-150), and obtain 1500 denars daily which is actually really good. Plus, getting a fief or mercenary contract make things even better. I think we just need all workshops being fixed and profitable in 1.5.7 and economy would be on a pretty good state. Loot after battles is for sure too high... Would love to see equipment cost being drastically reduced while also getting a nerf for loot income.

On the other hand, I think we are currently getting about 10-30K per battle (depending on plunder gold, prisoners, loot) which is actually not a too high number, but the problem is that winning a battle should be harder and should happen less often than now. Winning even battles with 0 losses for the player if for sure a big portion of the problem.

Anyway, if you come to the conclusion that passive income should be increased, please do not make workshops and caravans OP. Increasing fiefs income would be a better idea (only if necessary).
 
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Worldsprayer

Recruit
After several tries, I really can't figure out which workshops make the most money.
What are your best workshop choices?
I need your help :xf-frown:
It's more about what's close than what's best. After all, if any particular workshop was "best" then there would be no POINT in the others. I've had a silver mine make 50 and a leather shop make 250. It all depends on what resources are near by to your settlement. If you try to stick a silversmith and the nearest silver is half way across the map, it won't make any money because the inputs are too expensive.
 

guiskj

Squire
Thanks you made a good analsys about economy system at game. Yes we tried to achieve that connection of world elements to create all world economy. So caravans - villagers - workshops - looters all are somehow connected and they are making money from all real actions. So if a bandit hideout appeared near a village its tax and connected town's workshops are all effected. If you loot these looters which looted your villagers / caravan you get more money plundered.

About your critisism yes currently income from these sources are low. One caravan is making 300 per day, one workshop is making 100 per day (normally make 200 per day, 1.5.6 is buggy about this) one village makes 100-200-300 per day according to production type and hearth level. These are not big numbers you are right. However these numbers are what they need to be actually. If players get money by selling loot stuff mostly it seems looting brings more than it should or if there is an exploit at smithing it is broken and this need to be fixed asap (unfortunately it is broken since EA started). Because other income sources are more powerfull we cannot make one 15K invested workshop / caravan to bring back 0.5-1K daily. If this is the case you will get your money back in only 15 days (1 game season). In real world nothing works like that. Any investment does not bring its cost in less than a year. Ok we are not trying to make game a real world simulator of course (it does not seem entertaining if we try to do this) but imo if one caravan or workshop pay back its investment in 20-30 game days this is not a good design. Currently game is not totally balanced so incomes from economical elements can be seem weak because of this maybe.

Sometimes a player place 200 tier-5 elite troops to a castle garrison which has less prosperity. Then he want caravan or workshops to pay his daily wages somehow. When this does not happen and when he goes bankrupt he gets anger. However player should not stack 200 elite troops to a castle garrison or should not upgrade his troops if has no money enough also out of topic I accept castles should be more strategical fiefs because their economical benefits are already weak. They have no military or economical benefit currently. This is something we need to fix. If we make general game economy balanced and if we can offer player alternative solutions to his problems then there will be no need to increase caravan workshop profits, daily 200 average (workshop)- 300/400 average (caravan) will be reasonable.

One last addition : Because all world elements are connected somehow any one new addition can damage workshop / caravan profits. For example cavalry ratio speed bonus will be reduced to 40% from 60% in 1.5.7 to make overall world balance and gameplay better / reduce OP of Khuzaits (their cavalry ratio is higher than other factions). This reduce at speed bonus of cavalry ratio increased daily cavalry loss ratio 1% from 0.5% (no enemy case). Because caravans have high cavalry ratio and they were faster when this bonus was 60%. Like in this example even we did not change anything about how caravans work their expected ROI (return of investment) and average life on map is reduced. So in some patches these profit expectations can be broken but we will fix them when we see it. What happened workshops in 1.5.6 is something like this. Also I see that caravan problem before it is released and give caravans a small speed bonus to keep average daily caravan loss ratio at 0.5% at 1.5.7.
I agree with everything you say, except the bit about player upgrading their troops without having the money to pay for them.

The player has no way to make this decisions in an informed fashion before upgrading his troops.

Plus, and this is a big thing, the UI is set up in such a way to encourage the player to upgrade his troops. That upgrade button in each troop item in the troop menu is just asking to be clicked because there is no indication of any downside to doing so.

If the player making these financial analyses is a desired part of gameplay, then I suggest the upgrade be done in a completely different way.

Party Templates. The player creates the templates. For each of his parties, including garrison, the player can create templates and troops placed on those parties automatically upgrade, when possible, to fill the template, otherwise it will keep the troop units at tier 1 level.

These templates can be created by the player to satisfy daily wage maximums as well as tactical advantage, such as no cavalry and extra archers for garrison parties.

If the screen for these templates gives the player enough information, such as total template autocalc strength, formation ratios, wages and upgrade costs, they player can then be responsible for his financial well being in a way that is not reasonable to expect right now.
 

Sarissofoi

Veteran
M&BWBWF&S
The Castles should be buffed in some way.
Maybe turn them into Castle with small town as compared to City with a stronghold(current cities).
Give Castles one workshop spot, 1-2 notables and access to market(so they can feed troops). Maybe even reduce to garrisoned troops upkeep.
That alone would make them more valuable and it would help both player and AI.
Now they are a barely asset for a AI and often a burden for a player.
Also adding ability to hire some mercenaries in castles(like in towns) sure would be nice.

Also boosting over all income from villages would be nice.
The current war economy based on loot is silly. Especially that it helps winning faction in much higher extent rendering their economical trouble to nothing and make losing faction even worse(as they lords lose part of their treasury and often run with no money).
Make ransoming more profitable(both Lords and soldiers) and make so Lords don't lose part of their treasury on lose. Because in current meta (I suspect) it makes losing side get out of money fast and then lead to starving parties as they can't even afford food.
 
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Antaeus

Sergeant at Arms
The best workshops change from game to game, release to release. I just look for a combination of low priced goods and good local supply -and look for nearby castles for supply too, as their villages use the nearest city.

I'd suggest that passive income like workshops and caravans are not too bad right now. They don't quite allow you to forget about them. But also don't quite earn enough to keep tier parties in the field - so you have to work for that by fighting, or gaining cities, or becoming an accomplished trader yourself..
 

Gandamula

Sergeant at Arms
Best I made in 1.5.6 was 250 denars from brewery in Pravend. Workshops are nerfed so much that they will never be a decent income source. You can keep them as additional but never main. Same goes for caravans in 1.5.6 and fiefs. The only main income source right now is loot so grab a lot before peacetime if You don't want to run around after bandit parties
Caravans? No, my last one, who costs 22.5k made 2k before been destroyed by looters.
 

Parkerg12

Recruit
A workshop making even 100 gold a day is actually pretty viable - 100 to 150 days and you get a return on your investment. Same deal with a Caravan. The issues I see the most is the lack of early-mid game missions to play around with. at this time you pretty much immediately move to build an army - become a merc - become a lord - get a fief - get another fief. There is only so many caravan ambush - escort - bandit outposts you can do until you want to move on to Fighting in actual wars. But once you do join the wars your Caravans and workshops are immediately at greater risk of losing and your armies cost quickly out paces the income.
 

CrazyElf

Sergeant
Continue investing money on workshops (if you have more than 20-30K) they will be more profitable at 1.5.7, a small bug decreased their profit in 1.5.6 to 100 (as daily average) from 200 (as daily average). While building a workshop check input item's price at town's marketplace and production type of around villages.


So does this mean that there will be upgrades to Workshops (ex: like the kind in cities)?
 

Pejot

Sergeant Knight
WBVC
Caravans? No, my last one, who costs 22.5k made 2k before been destroyed by looters.

How long was it making 2k a day? Basically I never got more than 1,5k from a caravan and never for longer than 3 days straight. So this high income means a caravan got nice transaction lately but they never stay high and are vulnerable to attacks. I don't care how long they take to return the investment I'm putting money into them just to slow down my wealth being depleted by my 3 garrisons and 3 parties and I really don't even feel the profit from them xD
 
Thanks you made a good analsys about economy system at game. Yes we tried to achieve that connection of world elements to create all world economy. So caravans - villagers - workshops - looters all are somehow connected and they are making money from all real actions. So if a bandit hideout appeared near a village its tax and connected town's workshops are all effected. If you loot these looters which looted your villagers / caravan you get more money plundered.

About your critisism yes currently income from these sources are low. One caravan is making 300 per day, one workshop is making 100 per day (normally make 200 per day, 1.5.6 is buggy about this) one village makes 100-200-300 per day according to production type and hearth level. These are not big numbers you are right. However these numbers are what they need to be actually. If players get money by selling loot stuff mostly it seems looting brings more than it should or if there is an exploit at smithing it is broken and this need to be fixed asap (unfortunately it is broken since EA started). Because other income sources are more powerfull we cannot make one 15K invested workshop / caravan to bring back 0.5-1K daily. If this is the case you will get your money back in only 15 days (1 game season). In real world nothing works like that. Any investment does not bring its cost in less than a year. Ok we are not trying to make game a real world simulator of course (it does not seem entertaining if we try to do this) but imo if one caravan or workshop pay back its investment in 20-30 game days this is not a good design. Currently game is not totally balanced so incomes from economical elements can be seem weak because of this maybe.

Sometimes a player place 200 tier-5 elite troops to a castle garrison which has less prosperity. Then he want caravan or workshops to pay his daily wages somehow. When this does not happen and when he goes bankrupt he gets anger. However player should not stack 200 elite troops to a castle garrison or should not upgrade his troops if has no money enough also out of topic I accept castles should be more strategical fiefs because their economical benefits are already weak. They have no military or economical benefit currently. This is something we need to fix. If we make general game economy balanced and if we can offer player alternative solutions to his problems then there will be no need to increase caravan workshop profits, daily 200 average (workshop)- 300/400 average (caravan) will be reasonable.

One last addition : Because all world elements are connected somehow any one new addition can damage workshop / caravan profits. For example cavalry ratio speed bonus will be reduced to 40% from 60% in 1.5.7 to make overall world balance and gameplay better / reduce OP of Khuzaits (their cavalry ratio is higher than other factions). This reduce at speed bonus of cavalry ratio increased daily cavalry loss ratio 1% from 0.5% (no enemy case). Because caravans have high cavalry ratio and they were faster when this bonus was 60%. Like in this example even we did not change anything about how caravans work their expected ROI (return of investment) and average life on map is reduced. So in some patches these profit expectations can be broken but we will fix them when we see it. What happened workshops in 1.5.6 is something like this. Also I see that caravan problem before it is released and give caravans a small speed bonus to keep average daily caravan loss ratio at 0.5% at 1.5.7.

Would it be possible to include workshop levels? Something like expanding the size of our operation to increase output capacity, so instead of using 1 grain to produce 1 beer at a cycle, we could invest more money to increase the production to take 2 grains and produce 2 beers. I don't know if this is exactly the way it currently works, it is just an example.

The idea behind it is to allow us to increase our passive income and balancing it with an investment requirement, plus it also factors in item prices, so increasing the operation would only be profitable if the town had enough supply (connected villages in good conditions + producing the resource required) and if there were enough caravans going by to prevent produced goods from flooding the markets and causing the price to drop too much.
 

mexxico

Sergeant Knight
Would it be possible to include workshop levels? Something like expanding the size of our operation to increase output capacity, so instead of using 1 grain to produce 1 beer at a cycle, we could invest more money to increase the production to take 2 grains and produce 2 beers. I don't know if this is exactly the way it currently works, it is just an example.

The idea behind it is to allow us to increase our passive income and balancing it with an investment requirement, plus it also factors in item prices, so increasing the operation would only be profitable if the town had enough supply (connected villages in good conditions + producing the resource required) and if there were enough caravans going by to prevent produced goods from flooding the markets and causing the price to drop too much.

This should be done only after adding inventory to shops. So player can buy cheap input items and move them to inventory of shop. Shop first uses these items and if these are depleted then should buy from town marketplace. Otherwise increasing convertion amount will not end with higher daily profit in 60-70% cases.

Caravans? No, my last one, who costs 22.5k made 2k before been destroyed by looters.

Each caravan has about 0.5% daily being destroyed probability in average. So if we assume 10000 forum users built caravan till now 200-300 of them lost their caravans at first 5-10 days. (No enemy kingdom case)
 
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