1.5.5 Balance and Further Changes

[Einarcf]

Also, I have had some cav players argue to me that cav has high score because they "finish" people off, not that they deal high damage overall. That they kill infantry after that infantry has already been worked down to say 20 hp by 3 different inf players on your team. Would it be possible to add a damage metric to the game instead of/in additon to the score system? I would be very interested to see what kind of data you have on how individual classes perform.

(I also believe it would stop people being greedy for dealing the last hit, threatening to teamkill teammates, but that is besides the point)

 

[Ikea Knight]

I also very much doubt that there will ever be a competitive event without class restrictions. You cannot have different factions with unique line ups and equipment and assume that the corresponding meta classes (inf, archer,cav) will be perfectly balanced with whatever makes the other faction unique. Certain match ups will always favour certain counters, while class restrictions are the best utility to even out such deficits in balance to restrict the meta abuse.

I disagree.
Factions have still unique traits even with class restrictions. And every faction was designed to have a specific playstyle.
The reason why our class restricition kind of work is because 4 out of 6 classes have heavy infantry -the standard unit for every match.
That's why (at least to me) Aserai and Khuzait always feel frustrating to play.
Additionally our class restricitons also work well for Vlandia, Battania, Empire, Sturgia and Aserai since teams are still able to play the way the dev probably envisioned us to play them.

Khuzait always comes out short because they don't have heavy infantry and not any other usable infantry in general.
With our infantry focused class restricition it's just obvious that Khuzait always gets the short end of the stick.

I think: we already have different factions with unique lin ups that fit into meta.

Basically what I am trying to say is: playing without class restricitions shouldn't change the matches too much because most of the factions are already played the way they are supposed to function.

Sure- if we remove class restricitons now we will see teams with 5 archers or 6 cav or whatever you can imagine. But then it's up to the devs to fix that.

Right now the devs have their hand tied because we are not abusing the game in a competetive setting. I stronlgy believe that it will make the game only better if we at some point stop with these restrictions ( which are a pain in the ass of the admins too) and let the devs do their job.

 

[hoonii]

Khuzait always comes out short because they don't have heavy infantry and not any other usable infantry in general.
With our infantry focused class restricition it's just obvious that Khuzait always gets the short end of the stick.

If that is the case, might sound wild but maybe remove or change the class restriction for Khuzait specifically, so teams won't have to play the worst infantry in the game?
Might sound stupid, just an idea.

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

In Warband I recall a certain balance patch which finally put archers into their place and took away their endless kiting. I also recall different maps layouts and an overall different system with battle. We can now go to argue endlessly if equip selection and single life may be better, but I'd like to point out: we're talking Skirmish right now, so let's not derail.

Skirmish just works different than Battle and that on many levels as well and I guess until proper balancing somehow drops, limits are sadly needed.

Archers never stopped being able to kite in Warband tbh. Sure, Skirmish is different, but they share many principles. Fact remains that inf are a popular and effective class even just now when cav are inarguably overpowered, limits may be needed right now, that's no reason to assume they allways will be though, which is what I was replying to.

Speaking of gamemodes, surprised we don't see other suggestions for classes specific to that mode e.g. why can cav capture flags while mounted, what if infantry capped it faster, etc.

 

[TheBard]

Archers never stopped being able to kite in Warband tbh. Sure, Skirmish is different, but they share many principles. Fact remains that inf are a popular and effective class even just now when cav are inarguably overpowered, limits may be needed right now, that's no reason to assume they allways will be though, which is what I was replying to.

No, it didn't shut it down completely, I never said it, but it has been worse.
I do agree on cavalry being OP. That's a sentiment shared by cav players so I don't really see why we need a tournament without limits for cavalry to stomp all over it.

Speaking of gamemodes, surprised we don't see other suggestions for classes specific to that mode e.g. why can cav capture flags while mounted, what if infantry capped it faster, etc.

These are actually good suggestions.

 

[Aprikosenmann]

But like OGL points out we actually dont have any real proof that cav/arc only would be OP in competitive.
We are playing this game for hundreds of hours and complain for hundreds of hours in forums but we are too lazy/afraid to just test it.
It's pathethic now that I think about it.
Let's do this....Beast#4 no limit!

 

[IceNoVa]

I disagree.
Factions have still unique traits even with class restrictions. And every faction was designed to have a specific playstyle.
The reason why our class restricition kind of work is because 4 out of 6 classes have heavy infantry -the standard unit for every match.
That's why (at least to me) Aserai and Khuzait always feel frustrating to play.
Additionally our class restricitons also work well for Vlandia, Battania, Empire, Sturgia and Aserai since teams are still able to play the way the dev probably envisioned us to play them.

Khuzait always comes out short because they don't have heavy infantry and not any other usable infantry in general.
With our infantry focused class restricition it's just obvious that Khuzait always gets the short end of the stick.

I think: we already have different factions with unique lin ups that fit into meta.

Khuzait inf, with it's current loadout (default spear and option to get a throwing spear) makes them more versatile than regular heavy inf and puts them somewhere between heavy inf and the skirmish or shock inf. An option might be reducing their cost marginally to allow for a triple spaw?
Aserai get's the additional spawn by default and doesn't require any eco management, which is an interesting approach.
True though, they are frustrating to play. Aserai needs a viable spear infantry and otherwise they'd be good. The pike on the guard doesn't count though, since that is just asking to be shot. (a long spear might be a better pick though).

---

Also, I have had some cav players argue to me that cav has high score because they "finish" people off, not that they deal high damage overall.

Data on that might indeed be interesting to look at, from my experience a good cav deals tons of damage. If they pull off the bump slash/stab they can get in a free hit with high damage, which can one-hit low armoured targets frequently (damage includes hits to head though).

 

[Hairless]

A player should be ready to play any class if the situation requires for it, and any composition should be both viable and stoppable.

Eventually there will be players who can, and their teams will be better.

As far as I respect you and your work for multiplayer, this is just pure bull*hit. I have no idea what kind of esport you have in mind for this game, but how esport works in other games is that people specialize in something. League of Legends? Players specialize in playing different positions, even tho some switches happen(for example toplane players can perfrom well on mid and vice versa), they still won't perform as good on the sub-lane.
Here you can say that they can play variety of champions, but we got variety of different weapons. Switching from inf to cav is not like switching champion, it's like switching position you play on. Dota? Same case. If multiplayer was going the direction of everyone being a mutli-class hero, then I think you can clearly tell that something is wrong.

 

[TheBard]

As far as I respect you and your work for multiplayer, this is just pure bull*hit. I have no idea what kind of esport you have in mind for this game, but how esport works in other games is that people specialize in something. League of Legends? Players specialize in playing different positions, even tho some switches happen(for example toplane players can perfrom well on mid and vice versa), they still won't perform as good on the sub-lane.
Here you can say that they can play variety of champions, but we got variety of different weapons. Switching from inf to cav is not like switching champion, it's like switching position you play on. Dota? Same case. If multiplayer was going the direction of everyone being a mutli-class hero, then I think you can clearly tell that something is wrong.

I fully second that as ex-Dota player.
Especially certain heroes/champs require a playstyle which might need to be mastered and just a few are good at this and that. To require everyone being able to play everything at any given time is just stupid, it's not working in any competitive team sport either.

 

[Firunien]

Archers never stopped being able to kite in Warband tbh. Sure, Skirmish is different, but they share many principles. Fact remains that inf are a popular and effective class even just now when cav are inarguably overpowered, limits may be needed right now, that's no reason to assume they allways will be though, which is what I was replying to.

Speaking of gamemodes, surprised we don't see other suggestions for classes specific to that mode e.g. why can cav capture flags while mounted, what if infantry capped it faster, etc.

Not really easy to compare, i mean archers had less HP to begin with. Also in Warband most of the time you play 8v8, so there is less angles to play from if using archerspam. Also archers could be pushed way easier by cav, because of more reliable bumpslash and stab.

But like OGL points out we actually dont have any real proof that cav/arc only would be OP in competitive.
We are playing this game for hundreds of hours and complain for hundreds of hours in forums but we are too lazy/afraid to just test it.
It's pathethic now that I think about it.
Let's do this....Beast#4 no limit!

Well i actually dont think cav and archer spam would be op on competitive, the thing is atm when you join a public game its pure cancer, always archerspam or cavspam. Most people like the game for its melee, but it actually is getting shot to pieces while trying to get into melee. I almost never see a dev on public, thats REALLY weird. Balancing organized play by looking at numbers from unorganised play, take a statistics lesson TW ffs.

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

Not really easy to compare, i mean archers had less HP to begin with. Also in Warband most of the time you play 8v8, so there is less angles to play from if using archerspam. Also archers could be pushed way easier by cav, because of more reliable bumpslash and stab.

I agree cav helped keep archers honest, I posted this a while ago in the discord. The pushing around really hurts cav being able to specifically target and kill someone, and you can't even dismount on an archer to engage in melee because the archer can just steal the horse.

 

[IceNoVa]

Well i actually dont think cav and archer spam would be op on competitive, the thing is atm when you join a public game its pure cancer, always archerspam or cavspam. Most people like the game for its melee, but it actually is getting shot to pieces while trying to get into melee. I almost never see a dev on public, thats REALLY weird. Balancing organized play by looking at numbers from unorganised play, take a statistics lesson TW ffs.

Usually you do see some on TDM, but that gamemmode is just wildly different and is 90% archer, cav or shock infantry. Results are obvious, most players spawn and die within 20 seconds.

 

[Marko͘]

Would love to see a riding/difficulty skill reintroduced. Don't let classes mount horses they aren't meant to.

Additionally, these changes OGL proposed:

• Disallow mounted units from capturing. It's an extra tactical decision for the players to make that could make them more vulnerable, and adds more to infantry value/purpose.
• Give infantry a slight capping speed bonus, highlighting their purpose as 'boots on the ground' even further.

 

[TheBard]

Would love to see a riding/difficulty skill reintroduced. Don't let classes mount horses they aren't meant to.

Devs maintained that this is to stay, although it has finally been nerfed with the last patch.

 

[Marko͘]

That sounds pretty inconsistent to me. If you're already pushing the class system, might as well make it consistent and enforce class archetypes as they are designed.

 

[sammytobe]

No, since they have class limits.


Not by weaponry strictly but with the ability to catch up and punish archers. We will be doing some experimenting with moves and aim speeds.


Baiting the archers to switch to melee
Getting all archery fire by standing in front with a shield
Baiting shield troops to break their shield wall
Baiting spear troops to put away their spears
etc...

About the AI abuse, I think people have to adjust their comps and tactics to solve this issue. My clan BTL has never complained about cav harassing our archers or enemy cav turning our shield units so their archers can get shots on them. This problem is solved by protecting archers with cav and pressing enemy archers. People can't just shield wall or circle formation on a flag and expect to win. If something is not working they need to try something else. I feel like the people complaining about this run solo archers in a group of infantry which has never really worked at least not in competitive play.

 

[Aprikosenmann]

Would love to see a riding/difficulty skill reintroduced. Don't let classes mount horses they aren't meant to.

Additionally, these changes OGL proposed:

• Disallow mounted units from capturing. It's an extra tactical decision for the players to make that could make them more vulnerable, and adds more to infantry value/purpose.
• Give infantry a slight capping speed bonus, highlighting their purpose as 'boots on the ground' even further.

Just recently the attributes were changed so that mounted inf/arc are riding really slow and inf is shooting pretty bad. Was definetly an awesome improvement. Your other two suggestions are nice aswell!

 

[Aprikosenmann]

Not really easy to compare, i mean archers had less HP to begin with. Also in Warband most of the time you play 8v8, so there is less angles to play from if using archerspam. Also archers could be pushed way easier by cav, because of more reliable bumpslash and stab.


Well i actually dont think cav and archer spam would be op on competitive, the thing is atm when you join a public game its pure cancer, always archerspam or cavspam. Most people like the game for its melee, but it actually is getting shot to pieces while trying to get into melee. I almost never see a dev on public, thats REALLY weird. Balancing organized play by looking at numbers from unorganised play, take a statistics lesson TW ffs.

But to be fair 98% of skirmish games played are non competitive. Seems reasonable to balance around that. Problem is: it isnt balanced class wise.

 

[hoonii]

Would love to see a riding/difficulty skill reintroduced. Don't let classes mount horses they aren't meant to.

They kinda did though, idk if you noticed but non-rider classes are utter **** at riding horses now. Maneuverability is ****, speed is ****, I think weapon damage is reduced as well especially with 2 handed weapons. Even a vlandian knight will easily catch up to a non-rider class using a horse and this is one of the most welcome changes ever.

 

[Marko͘]

Sure, those penalties sound good as solutions to a problem there shouldn't be in the first place. You still can't catch up to someone on foot that stole your horse they shouldn't have been able to mount at all in the first place lol

And as to why you had to dismount in the first place, one of the reasons:

The pushing around really hurts cav being able to specifically target and kill someone.

And no, I'm not a cav player but occasionally playing cav definitely doesn't feel as 'clean' as it did for me in Warband when it comes to pressuring someone in a 1v1 with bumps.