1.5.5 Balance and Further Changes

[AVRC]

I am all for it. The thing is we let the teams have a vote on the matter again.
Tournaments are events for the community so the admins have to sometimes let go of our personal wishes.
That said, I invite everybody to have a discussion on class limits in Beast / competetiv play.

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/beast-4-class-restriction-vote.437078/

But voting will still be reserved to team captains only.

The benefit of this is that, sure it can be unbalanced at certain situations, but we get to see the exact problems and make the required changes.
The best way to get these out in the open is having a competitive setting where players are ready to do whatever to win.

 

[AVRC]

In which direction e.g. making spam slower?

Just to make sure it is not unstoppable where the other player can not respond through the spamming,

 

[TheBard]

The benefit of this is that, sure it can be unbalanced at certain situations, but we get to see the exact problems and make the required changes.
The best way to get these out in the open is having a competitive setting where players are ready to do whatever to win.

We will see how the vote will develop, but I would like to ask a question, in case the vote reaffirms the limits again.
Isn't the mere introduction and then the reaffirmation of these limits through 3 consecutive votes (BEAST#1, BEAST#2, BEAST#4) a sign that something might be off in the balance?
If I am concerned, I'd say that these people casting these votes are actually spending some thoughts on it and even the introduction of this limit was given extensive thought and discussion.

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

Just to make sure it is not unstoppable where the other player can not respond through the spamming,

Right now the advantage is in the defender's favour, they can always respond and spam struggles to punish assuming the defender even slightly knows how to respond.

If anything it's attack recovery that needs buffing.

 

[Waljaaa]

As I just read in a post from I believe @OurGloriousLeader on another thread, wouldn't it be very usefull to try out the DM pickups without the classlimits 1st to see how that goes and collect data from that? Seems like a better option to me than dedicating a whole tournament to it atm.

 

[Namakan]

We will see how the vote will develop, but I would like to ask a question, in case the vote reaffirms the limits again.
Isn't the mere introduction and then the reaffirmation of these limits through 3 consecutive votes (BEAST#1, BEAST#2, BEAST#4) a sign that something might be off in the balance?
If I am concerned, I'd say that these people casting these votes are actually spending some thoughts on it and even the introduction of this limit was given extensive thought and discussion.

People casting votes having not tried playing without limits for ages, mostly out of fear of "oh it will be so annoying to play vs 3archer/3cav teams". If you want to make a point on balance, limits need to be lifted so we can see what actually happens.

 

[Aprikosenmann]

Just to make sure it is not unstoppable where the other player can not respond through the spamming,

Yeah the majority of the community agrees that spam is too easy.
OGL will not be pleased by this answer because he wants spam to work more

I am all for it. The thing is we let the teams have a vote on the matter again.
Tournaments are events for the community so the admins have to sometimes let go of our personal wishes.
That said, I invite everybody to have a discussion on class limits in Beast / competetiv play.

Aint gonna happen. 60%+ of Players are infantry, why would they vote to doom themself. Just ****ing force no limit and see how the competitive scene brakes down. Then TW may realise that Inf needs a buff.

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

Yeah the majority of the community agrees that spam is too easy.
OGL will not be pleased by this answer because he wants spam to work more

Considering the speed of return hits and lack of turncap, if people consider spam too easy I am happy to give tips on how to counter, please hmu on steam anyone needing help.

 

[TheBard]

Aint gonna happen. 60%+ of Players are infantry, why would they vote to doom themself. Just ****ing force no limit and see how the competitive scene brakes down. Then TW may realise that Inf needs a buff.

I doubt recovery from that would be possible to be honest.

 

[AVRC]

We will see how the vote will develop, but I would like to ask a question, in case the vote reaffirms the limits again.
Isn't the mere introduction and then the reaffirmation of these limits through 3 consecutive votes (BEAST#1, BEAST#2, BEAST#4) a sign that something might be off in the balance?
If I am concerned, I'd say that these people casting these votes are actually spending some thoughts on it and even the introduction of this limit was given extensive thought and discussion.

The limits were decided way before, the game has changed much since then. I believe it is about time we can give it a try. You are free to not want to risk your tournament obviously, in that case we will probably figure something ourselves for an event.

We accept that the balance is not perfect but we believe that we are making progress towards the point it will not be necessary. I am just saying it would be easier to identify the issues much faster in a competitive event with no limits.

I encourage all teams to abuse whatever strategy they believe is unbeatable, and I am sure many of the times our competent players will find a solution to beat those strategies over time. Surely there will be some overpowered strategies and we will adjust those.

A player should be ready to play any class if the situation requires for it, and any composition should be both viable and stoppable.

 

[Rangah]

A player should be ready to play any class if the situation requires for it

I'm not sure that this is a good approach, people always specialize in a certain class in every competitive game, it's not viable to tell an archer main to switch to cav and perform versus other cav mains just to counter a team's strategy and so on.

I am all for playing without class limits, though, as it will point out all the broken things much faster.

 

[AVRC]

I'm not sure that this is a good approach, people always specialize in a certain class in every competitive game, it's not viable to tell an archer main to switch to cav and perform versus other cav mains just to counter a team's strategy and so on.

I am all for playing without class limits, though, as it will point out all the broken things much faster.

Eventually there will be players who can, and their teams will be better.

 

[Aprikosenmann]

The limits were decided way before, the game has changed much since then.

But it developed 180 degree in the wrong direction.
The limit was introduced because Infantry was too weak.

Now lets remember how Infantry was back then:
-only 140gold cost for heavy inf
-heavy inf had insanely strong throwables
->almost no channel time
->insane accuracy while walking
->more throwables
->more damage on throwables
- legionary even had TWO PILAS

Since then cav prize got increased aswell, yes. That might make up for the price change.
But also hidden buff like this happened...
1.5
-couch damage lowered
-in return lance damage increased
1.5.5
->couch damage increased again
but lance damage not reduced in return

 

[Tryerror]

The limits were decided way before, the game has changed much since then. I believe it is about time we can give it a try. You are free to not want to risk your tournament obviously, in that case we will probably figure something ourselves for an event.

I mean, would be nice to make it our/ everyones tournament. You are already a part of it. An E-Sport Pricepool would be a good start too. Supportet through a Battlepass that gives me new skins and a Main Menu Art. Shield Arts would also be great, but nevermind. I am daydreaming right now.
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With the latest Patch I was in Favor of lifting the class limits for cavalery, since she was ballanced imo. Now without the throwing on Inf she is too strong again and needs a limit. The big problem will always be the archerlimit tho. I Am sure you can do something that people wont need a limit but until then you might really need a special event to test things out. Well if you need people I am 100% sure NoVa know some manpower to help you guys out!
(gives Archers 50 HP and nobody will vote for an Archer limit anymore hahahahahahaha)

Edit: I play all Classes and i dont think everyone needs to do that. Same just specialise in some classes or only want to stick to them. I think that is fine. But just my two cents.

 

[AVRC]

But it developed 180 degree in the wrong direction.
The limit was introduced because Infantry was too weak.

Now lets remember how Infantry was back then:
-only 140gold cost for heavy inf
-heavy inf had insanely strong throwables
->almost no channel time
->insane accuracy while walking
->more throwables
->more damage on throwables
- legionary even had TWO PILAS

Since then cav prize got increased aswell, yes. That might make up for the price change.
But also hidden buff like this happened...
1.5
-couch damage lowered
-in return lance damage increased
1.5.5
->couch damage increased again
but lance damage not reduced in return

As I mentioned above, we also believe that Infantry is not effective enough against cavalry at the moment. We are working on it.

 

[IceNoVa]

Eventually there will be players who can (multi-class), and their teams will be better.

The number of those players will be insignificant compared to the entire active player base and even the most versatile players do usually have preferences. Considering we've been going at is for 9 months it's fairly evident that a singular main class is the norm, a secondary class is not uncommon and allrounders are rare. However, between main/secondary there will be a fall-off in performance for the vast majority of players, even those who are regulars in competitive events. And that is not taking into account the amount of hours you'd have to great regularly to stay on top of your game in literally every single class.

I also very much doubt that there will ever be a competitive event without class restrictions. You cannot have different factions with unique line ups and equipment and assume that the corresponding meta classes (inf, archer,cav) will be perfectly balanced with whatever makes the other faction unique. Certain match ups will always favour certain counters, while class restrictions are the best utility to even out such deficits in balance to restrict the meta abuse.

---

Edit due to AVRC being a ninja:

As I mentioned above, we also believe that Infantry is not effective enough against cavalry at the moment. We are working on it.

That is great to hear.
Potentially the hook spear feature from SP, as someone proposed, might actually be a valid option. Atleast worthy of a test outside of the classic ideas of "rear the horse" or, have something to throw/shoot and roll the dice of destiny or death.

 

[hoonii]

1.5
-couch damage lowered
-in return lance damage increased
1.5.5
->couch damage increased again
but lance damage not reduced in return

I have been testing especially this in the game for a few days now, to see if couches were good again or not.

• My feedback is that couch lance is definitely where it's supposed to be. The damage can be reduced by a bit I agree, but it only deals high damage at max speed(how it's supposed to be), my couch lances deal significantly lower damage at lower speed. Heavy infantry, as long as I can see, can withstand couch lances to back if they're running away from the incoming knight, it deals like 70-80 damage to varyag's back at least, but that is probably not the same for mameluke as it has one of the fastest horses thus more damage. I think a timer delay after a couched lance should suffice for balancing it.
• Lances on the other hand, are still slow as a truck, but for some reason hits like also a truck, at high speeds of course. I am not sure about this but I think there is a little damage modifier difference or something between lances and spears and lances hit harder than spears although they have the same damage on paper, or at least it feels like that. True lance damage was not decreased but as you mentioned they are 200 gold=max 1 heavy spawn per player. Because most lances are longer than long spears an experienced cav main can easily dodge spears and outrange them. I think for that reason infantry feels unsafe and maybe the long spears need a little bit of reach or a speed buff.
• Now the lance bouncing off etc. problems are fixed I think lances have a little bit of superiority over spears as cav right now. A damage nerf to lance thrusts(not couch lances) should suffice for balancing issues.

I hate to say it but throwables are actually kinda useless right now, especially the throwing axes; they don't feel like axes anymore. True I wanted a nerf for them because they were literally broken but damage nerf and heavy infantry losing it really pushes people towards playing cav or archers imo. Throwables were a big threat to cav and they would fend them off, now the cav has barely any threat to face apart from the archers and broken-ass crossbows.

Heavy infantry really is in a bad position right now because they lost nearly all their utility against other classes. People say cav is op but it really isn't, it's just infantry is so bad in terms of dealing with them cav feels op but it is true that cav have an advantage over infantry.

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

I also very much doubt that there will ever be a competitive event without class restrictions. You cannot have different factions with unique line ups and equipment and assume that the corresponding meta classes (inf, archer,cav) will be perfectly balanced with whatever makes the other faction unique. Certain match ups will always favour certain counters, while class restrictions are the best utility to even out such deficits in balance to restrict the meta abuse.

Of course you can have comp without class restrictions? Warband had none for years and had a variety of class setups from heavy inf builds to heavy cav. It just needs better balancing to iron out the most egregious issues, mainly cav wise.

Agree that there will be few people skilled at multiclassing though - they require quite different input styles.

 

[HugoTheFrenchMan]

Thanks for the info!

 

[TheBard]

Of course you can have comp without class restrictions? Warband had none for years and had a variety of class setups from heavy inf builds to heavy cav. It just needs better balancing to iron out the most egregious issues, mainly cav wise.

Agree that there will be few people skilled at multiclassing though - they require quite different input styles.

In Warband I recall a certain balance patch which finally put archers into their place and took away their endless kiting. I also recall different maps layouts and an overall different system with battle. We can now go to argue endlessly if equip selection and single life may be better, but I'd like to point out: we're talking Skirmish right now, so let's not derail.

Skirmish just works different than Battle and that on many levels as well and I guess until proper balancing somehow drops, limits are sadly needed.