1.5.1 - Cavarly is pretty weak while archers are still the way to go.

[NLCRich]

I was playing a game earlier and I wished I had it on video, but I watched my most elite cavalry units, Imperial Elite Cataphracts, miss still ground units on 3/4 of their charges. I did the tutorial. I had the 6 mounted units from the village right, and I charged in there without realizing all I had was this tiny mace. So I got knocked out and then I watched these 6 horse guys from the tutorial whiff over and over against these basic bandit troops, before almost intentionally running themselves into an obvious attack and dying. It was pretty hilarious. I couldn't believe I lost in the tutorial lol.

 

[Louis Cyphre]

Charge damage needs a massive boost. Right now you get pathetic damage numbers from warhorses with heavy barding that ram into low tier troops.
But cav also needs to be better at actually hitting stuff with their melee weapons.

 

[Dabos37]

After investing some hours looking into the code, I finally found how to force the AI to order the shield wall formation and archers start shooting at a greater distance. This is the result:



And here you can compare the same battle in vanilla without my modification:


(Please check how the AI moves forward its archers like idiots without firing)


All I have changed is a simple line of code:

if (num < 6400f + (this._isInShieldWallDistance ? 3600f : 0f) && num > 100f - (this._isInShieldWallDistance ? 75f : 0f))

to

if (num < 11000f + (this._isInShieldWallDistance ? 3600f : 0f) && num > 100f - (this._isInShieldWallDistance ? 75f : 0f))


On the other hand, I have also detected that Palatine Guards have 160 in bow skill while almost any other T5 archer unit has 130 (just Aserai Master Archers and Palatine Guard have 160). Master Archers probably deserve more bow skill than other archers but Palatine Guard do not.

 

[ElCrisp]

After investing some hours looking into the code, I finally found how to force the AI to order the shield wall formation and archers start shooting at a greater distance. This is the result:



And here you can compare the same battle in vanilla without my modification:


(Please check how the AI moves forward its archers like idiots without firing)


All I have changed is a simple line of code:

if (num < 6400f + (this._isInShieldWallDistance ? 3600f : 0f) && num > 100f - (this._isInShieldWallDistance ? 75f : 0f))

to

if (num < 11000f + (this._isInShieldWallDistance ? 3600f : 0f) && num > 100f - (this._isInShieldWallDistance ? 75f : 0f))


On the other hand, I have also detected that Palatine Guards have 160 in bow skill while almost any other T5 archer unit has 130 (just Aserai Master Archers and Palatine Guard have 160). Master Archers probably deserve more bow skill than other archers but Palatine Guard do not.

Very cool testing man. I understand you took one video of each, but did you run other tests? If so did they have the same result ie losing the battle after the changes, by similar margins? Or did your archer manage to win some after the changes?
I would assume a decent level of variance in each simulation.

 

[Apocal]

Great work @Dabos37

On the other hand, I have also detected that Palatine Guards have 160 in bow skill while almost any other T5 archer unit has 130 (just Aserai Master Archers and Palatine Guard have 160). Master Archers probably deserve more bow skill than other archers but Palatine Guard do not.

But Palatine Guards only have one quiver.

 

[HalfMetalJacket]

Great work @Dabos37



But Palatine Guards only have one quiver.

I would honestly prefer if they got an extra quiver, their old bow and had their skill bumped down to 130. I don't see why they have to be so good at their job. They already get heavy armour and a better progression than everyone else, why do they need excellent armour and a great bow on top of that? The Empire's troop tree power creeps the heck out of everyone, period.

 

[Thoridon]

That's an interesting find Dabo, I might have to change that too. The AI definitely seemed to perform better there. Does it have an effect on sieges?

AI aside, a key issue for me with most archers is that they get a similar melee weapon, melee skill and armour to dedicated infantry of the same tier. They trade a shield for the ranged weapon and ammo but it really gives them an advantage in most situations - with palatine guard in particular they're still strong in melee if infantry do reach them.

Do archers really need a T5 melee weapon, 130 1H skill (matching T5 infantry) and 50 body armour?

In my personal unit mod I've edited every faction unit and with ranged troops I've reduced the quality of their melee weapon/skill and given lower armour across the tiers. They still improve with each upgrade but they're always lower in those aspects than their faction's infantry at the same tier. With crossbowmen I make them a bit better in melee than pure archers as they only run 1 set of ammo while pure archers run 2 but still lower than dedicated infantry.

It means that if/when infantry do reach archers they have the upper hand if they still have enough alive, compared to vanilla unit stats where archers turn into Legolas wielding a blade once infantry reach them. T5 archers still perform in melee against low tier infantry but T5 infantry have more of an advantage. It makes me think more about protecting my archers.

It'd be interesting to see the impact of your code modification in addition. Which file is the edit in?

 

[Dabos37]

Very cool testing man. I understand you took one video of each, but did you run other tests? If so did they have the same result ie losing the battle after the changes, by similar margins? Or did your archer manage to win some after the changes?
I would assume a decent level of variance in each simulation.

Yes, tried it about 5 times and while the result could change, all battles were in a similar way because the AI used its archers more effectively. Allowing the AI to use shield wall at a greater distance makes that the AI also use archers more effectively and the result is much better.

Great work @Dabos37

But Palatine Guards only have one quiver.

Thanks!

Ok, fair enough. On the other hand, I do agree with:

I would honestly prefer if they got an extra quiver, their old bow and had their skill bumped down to 130. I don't see why they have to be so good at their job. They already get heavy armour and a better progression than everyone else, why do they need excellent armour and a great bow on top of that? The Empire's troop tree power creeps the heck out of everyone, period.

Agree with this.

That's an interesting find Dabo, I might have to change that too. The AI definitely seemed to perform better there. Does it have an effect on sieges?

AI aside, a key issue for me with most archers is that they get a similar melee weapon, melee skill and armour to dedicated infantry of the same tier. They trade a shield for the ranged weapon and ammo but it really gives them an advantage in most situations - with palatine guard in particular they're still strong in melee if infantry do reach them.

Do archers really need a T5 melee weapon, 130 1H skill (matching T5 infantry) and 50 body armour?

In my personal unit mod I've edited every faction unit and with ranged troops I've reduced the quality of their melee weapon/skill and given lower armour across the tiers. They still improve with each upgrade but they're always lower in those aspects than their faction's infantry at the same tier. With crossbowmen I make them a bit better in melee than pure archers as they only run 1 set of ammo while pure archers run 2 but still lower than dedicated infantry.

It means that if/when infantry do reach archers they have the upper hand if they still have enough alive, compared to vanilla unit stats where archers turn into Legolas wielding a blade once infantry reach them. T5 archers still perform in melee against low tier infantry but T5 infantry have more of an advantage. It makes me think more about protecting my archers.

It'd be interesting to see the impact of your code modification in addition. Which file is the edit in?

Yes, the new AI for infantry and archers formation is pretty nice to be honest and TW made a great job with it. The only issue is that units are using shield wall too late and TW just need to make some tweaks to allow the AI to use its units more effectively. The AI is especially doing a pretty bad job with archers currently, because they start firing too late when they are too close to player’s units (just changing the shield wall distance fix this issue).

I think this change does not affect the sieges behavior but I have not had change to test it in deep.

I also do not understand why archers have 130 weapon skill. Archers are already pretty deadly from distance, why do they need to have the same weapon skill than infantry units?

 

[Thoridon]

There's a fairly template set of stats for most units.

T1: 20
T2: 40
T3: 70
T4: 100
T5: 130

It increases in a fairly uniform way for most units for most factions and applies to most basic skills like athletics and 1h weapon regardless of their role. There are some cases where a unit has been tweaked slightly (eg. a T5 archer getting 160 instead of 130 for their chosen weapon type) but the underlying template affects most, which puts many of the archer units equal to infantry for melee.

The same applies to a bunch of the equipment: In most cases you'll see a T2 unit with a T2 melee weapon, T3 gets a T3 weapon, T4 gets a T4 weapon and so on. This is fine for melee infantry but doesn't make sense that archers get the same melee weapon increases when they already have the big advantage of their bow.

I'm assuming various templates were used to get the troop trees finished ready for EA and that in time they'd plan to customise things further, but so far only a few specific vanilla units look like they've been changed much from the template.

 

[HalfMetalJacket]

There's a fairly template set of stats for most units.

T1: 20
T2: 40
T3: 70
T4: 100
T5: 130

It increases in a fairly uniform way for most units for most factions and applies to most basic skills like athletics and 1h weapon regardless of their role. There are some cases where a unit has been tweaked slightly (eg. a T5 archer getting 160 instead of 130 for their chosen weapon type) but the underlying template affects most, which puts many of the archer units equal to infantry for melee.

The same applies to a bunch of the equipment: In most cases you'll see a T2 unit with a T2 melee weapon, T3 gets a T3 weapon, T4 gets a T4 weapon and so on. This is fine for melee infantry but doesn't make sense that archers get the same melee weapon increases when they already have the big advantage of their bow.

I'm assuming various templates were used to get the troop trees finished ready for EA and that in time they'd plan to customise things further, but so far only a few specific vanilla units look like they've been changed much from the template.

I also find there's a particular amount of points that every unit in the game gets across the board, like all t6 troops end up with 915 total points by the end.

I do wonder what the final troop trees will look like by the end though. I do hope they make them all unique, but similarly viable.

 

[Schmutz]

I was playing a game earlier and I wished I had it on video, but I watched my most elite cavalry units, Imperial Elite Cataphracts, miss still ground units on 3/4 of their charges. I did the tutorial. I had the 6 mounted units from the village right, and I charged in there without realizing all I had was this tiny mace. So I got knocked out and then I watched these 6 horse guys from the tutorial whiff over and over against these basic bandit troops, before almost intentionally running themselves into an obvious attack and dying. It was pretty hilarious. I couldn't believe I lost in the tutorial lol.

jesus xD
I am sure they are working on it since it seems to be a result of the collision tweaks

 

[StewVader]

Agree 100%. The CAV AI is just bad, there is almost no point to have Cav since their charges don't do anything, and they can't hit anything.

 

[Apocal]

I would honestly prefer if they got an extra quiver, their old bow and had their skill bumped down to 130. I don't see why they have to be so good at their job. They already get heavy armour and a better progression than everyone else, why do they need excellent armour and a great bow on top of that? The Empire's troop tree power creeps the heck out of everyone, period.

I can't say I've ever noticed +/-30 on a unit's skills. But I've definitely noticed only one quiver.

 

[HalfMetalJacket]

I can't say I've ever noticed +/-30 on a unit's skills. But I've definitely noticed only one quiver.

Well tbf, I have been playing with a mod that increases the passive effects of unit skills. Still, they didn't have the Steppe War Bow before, and equipment still has the biggest effect. Maybe it really was just that.

No idea why TW decided to buff that and their skills, rather than just giving them a quiver.

 

[Tork789]

Spoiler: Check this out

 

[Schmutz]

Spoiler: Check this out

Spoiler: Check this out

 

[Tork789]

Spoiler: Check this out

Working on it. Waiting until Nvidia announces 30x series so the prices for lower models will fall.

 

[Schmutz]

Working on it. Waiting until Nvidia announces 30x series so the prices for lower models will fall.

 

[Dabos37]

I can't say I've ever noticed +/-30 on a unit's skills. But I've definitely noticed only one quiver.

Well, it depends, in most of the battles having 40-50 Palatine Guard units means that you can get 100-150 kills without engaging in melee and without running out of ammo. This means that one quiver is more than enough to fight and easily win most of battles.

On the other hand, fighting enemies with a lot of horse archers or fighting huge battles, one extra quiver is probably much more useful. I am in favor of decreasing Palatine Guard DPS, even if they have to get one extra quiver. What I personally dislike about the current issue with archers is that they kill too fast and any DPS nerf will be pretty welcome. On the other hand, after the 1.5.0 patch and after increasing the shield wall distance, I find archers not broken anymore and they are now just OP but not insane as before.

Improving cavalry AI and making some small changes will be probably enough.

 

[Apocal]

No idea why TW decided to buff that and their skills, rather than just giving them a quiver.

Unit differentiation and diversity. It isn't like Warband where you had troop trees that were snaggletoothed, missing types and tiers for every faction. So they are doing some weird stuff to make sure one faction's unit isn't exactly (or almost-exactly) the same as another faction's.