1.5.1 - Cavarly is pretty weak while archers are still the way to go.

[HalfMetalJacket]

Unit differentiation and diversity. It isn't like Warband where you had troop trees that were snaggletoothed, missing types and tiers for every faction. So they are doing some weird stuff to make sure one faction's unit isn't exactly (or almost-exactly) the same as another faction's.

I get that, and I like the general direction but I think Palatine Guards already differentiate themselves well enough thanks to their heavy armour. That, along with a better progression made them competitive to other archers in the game. Give them an extra quiver, leave their mediocre bow as is and they'll still be very worthy without completely overshadowing other archers.

As they are now though, their 160 bow skill and Steppe War Bow has made them arguably better than the Aserai Master Archer, and flat out better than Khuzait or Sturgian archers. A lack of quiver seems minor now that they have the kit to kill so much more, and clean everything up in melee.

Also to me, it seems daft for veteran archers from a pragmatic military empire to see all these other archers with their double quivers and go 'nah, I don't need extra quivers'.

 

[Dionaea]

Archers should be playing even a smaller role than cavalry in “this time in Calradia”. If I remember correctly, this game is based around 700-1200 where cavalry and infantry were pretty dominant.

Archers aren't all that overpowered, if you place your shieldwall in front of them to soak up arrows, you can send your cavalry to one flank and your archers to another and decimate them. And when it comes to killing the AI, they are ok but not the "you will have 0 casualties as if you where cheating" type of good that I expected from all the posts about OP archers here. (Only Khuzait often have this but then I get so used to not seeing red skulls next to my guys that when it does happen I rage abandon the campaign and start a new one)

The only archer unit that impresses me is the Forest Bandit, I know the Batanian noble is supposed to be almighty but I'm not going to take the effort of finding them in their villages when I can recruit forest bandits from my prisoners.

All in all Infantry usually is the dominant factor in most my playthroughs, especially if you don't spread their formation too thin

But... I've started tinkering with some things for my latest campaign (my character is named Bohemund De Hauteville guess which faction I took )

(made the Vlandian sergeant more like a Norman serjeant with a kite shield and a spear and backup sword and the beautiful western chainmail armor that I gave a bit more defense points and 200 polearm skill, might turn the Vlandian cavalry into Miles, if I decide the Vlandian banner knights don't fit my Norman theme when I start recruiting cavalry, for now my serjeants are pretty capable) so as of now I can't use my experiences anymore to judge the game.

 

[Nalgasucia507]

Archers aren't all that overpowered, if you place your shieldwall in front of them to soak up arrows, you can send your cavalry to one flank and your archers to another and decimate them. And when it comes to killing the AI, they are ok but not the "you will have 0 casualties as if you where cheating" type of good that I expected from all the posts about OP archers here. (Only Khuzait often have this but then I get so used to not seeing red skulls next to my guys that when it does happen I rage abandon the campaign and start a new one)

The only archer unit that impresses me is the Forest Bandit, I know the Batanian noble is supposed to be almighty but I'm not going to take the effort of finding them in their villages when I can recruit forest bandits from my prisoners.

All in all Infantry usually is the dominant factor in most my playthroughs, especially if you don't spread their formation too thin

But... I've started tinkering with some things for my latest campaign (my character is named Bohemund De Hauteville guess which faction I took )

(made the Vlandian sergeant more like a Norman serjeant with a kite shield and a spear and backup sword and the beautiful western chainmail armor that I gave a bit more defense points and 200 polearm skill, might turn the Vlandian cavalry into Miles, if I decide the Vlandian banner knights don't fit my Norman theme when I start recruiting cavalry, for now my serjeants are pretty capable) so as of now I can't use my experiences anymore to judge the game.

Sounds pretty cool dude. Thanks for sharing!

 

[whentheragequithappens]

After investing some hours looking into the code, I finally found how to force the AI to order the shield wall formation and archers start shooting at a greater distance. This is the result:



And here you can compare the same battle in vanilla without my modification:


(Please check how the AI moves forward its archers like idiots without firing)


All I have changed is a simple line of code:

if (num < 6400f + (this._isInShieldWallDistance ? 3600f : 0f) && num > 100f - (this._isInShieldWallDistance ? 75f : 0f))

to

if (num < 11000f + (this._isInShieldWallDistance ? 3600f : 0f) && num > 100f - (this._isInShieldWallDistance ? 75f : 0f))


On the other hand, I have also detected that Palatine Guards have 160 in bow skill while almost any other T5 archer unit has 130 (just Aserai Master Archers and Palatine Guard have 160). Master Archers probably deserve more bow skill than other archers but Palatine Guard do not.

this should be a pinned thread.

 

[Dionaea]

I stand corrected! Archers are actually the way to go:

 

[Apocal]

I stand corrected! Archers are actually the way to go:

Forty.
Two.
Minutes.

 

[Marajah]

Forty.
Two.
Minutes.

Spiffing Brit only does videos exploiting exploitable exploits in games. It's pretty entertaining. Anyway, he got lots of viewers and that probably seals the deal if anyone still have any doubt archers are op.

 

[Dabos37]

I have seen that video and it especially remarks how exploitable archers are if using retreat. While retreat should make us lose some men if used when the enemy is close, I am not really concerned about this because in this way we are actually taking the decision to exploit the game. The problem I see with archers is different, even if you do not want to exploit the game and you want to play the game in a fair way, having 30-40% T5 archers in our party feels like exploring the game even when we do not want to do it.

 

[Dionaea]

I have seen that video and it especially remarks how exploitable archers are if using retreat. While retreat should make us lose some men if used when the enemy is close

Hope they don't implement that anytime soon, he just saved at least 3 abandoned campaigns where I got overconfident and now face overwhelming odds, I may only have a few archers because they are an afterthought for me, but now the campaign is saved! I'll probably have to fight, retreat and fight and retreat about 700 times but the campaigns are saved!

Forty.
Two.
Minutes.

It's spiffing Brit, the 42 minutes fly by and there's no such thing as too much Spiffing Brit, it also explains the most efficient way to level smith and making lots of money early on. I knew being a smith makes you rich but he actually explains the mechanic behind it

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

it also explains the most efficient way to level smith

It mentions making 2 handed sword until javelins unlock? WOW
Does he mention you should only use companions to smith so you don't bloat your level and kill your stat gains in USEFUL SKILLS?

I like him too I just get tired of the "smithing so good" advice when it's just money and it kills you growth. I want speed! I want power!

 

[Dionaea]

It mentions making 2 handed sword until javelins unlock? WOW
Does he mention you should only use companions to smith so you don't bloat your level and kill your stat gains in USEFUL SKILLS?

I like him too I just get tired of the "smithing so good" advice when it's just money and it kills you growth. I want speed! I want power!

He explains how the first damage output is what determines the value and thus the skill gain for smithing weapons

 

[Marajah]

It mentions making 2 handed sword until javelins unlock? WOW
Does he mention you should only use companions to smith so you don't bloat your level and kill your stat gains in USEFUL SKILLS?

I like him too I just get tired of the "smithing so good" advice when it's just money and it kills you growth. I want speed! I want power!

Well, he did point out you can level archery (and probably throwing too) killing "friendly troops" lol

I also find it quite annoying that lvling up skills being progressively harder is hidden. It took me forever to find out if I lvl up too much it botches your growth

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

Well, he did point out you can level archery (and probably throwing too) killing "friendly troops" lol

No! That was my secret! Although it has to be allies I think in field battle but own units will work in hideouts. Unless it just changed now and all friendly work.
I know in 1.4.3 when I wanted to study medicine on my troops (blunt arrows) it didn't give me bow. But I did it inside a hideout and it did in 1.5.1
I just laugh and remember how they reduced the skill gains from tournaments. Oh that needed a swift nerf, but friendly fire on Monchung when he cuts in on my looters, that's totally fine.

I also find it quite annoying that lvling up skills being progressively harder is hidden. It took me forever to find out if I lvl up too much it botches your growth

Yeah if I could change one thing in Bannerlord (it's a tough choice) I think I'd gut that mechanic. I'd also like to ditch attributes too and just let FP cover the whole skills.

 

[Dabos37]

Funniest thing is that the guy who recorded the video did not even spread archers in lose formation to make them all fire at the same time (in line formation second line archers do not fire).

To be honest, while all the exploits showed in the video should be fixed, I really do not care at all about some of them. Some of these exploits could be avoided by just do not using them. On the other hand, what I really find an issue is the archers performance because we cannot just stop using archers. So even if I do not want to exploit the game, I feel myself forced to cheese the game because my archers just kill everything too fast and most of battles get ridiculously easy.

 

[Dionaea]

Funniest thing is that the guy who recorded the video did not even spread archers in lose formation to make them all fire at the same time (in line formation second line archers do not fire).

To be honest, while all the exploits showed in the video should be fixed, I really do not care at all about some of them. Some of these exploits could be avoided by just do not using them. On the other hand, what I really find an issue is the archers performance because we cannot just stop using archers. So even if I do not want to exploit the game, I feel myself forced to cheese the game because my archers just kill everything too fast and most of battles get ridiculously easy.

Cheese is good! It helps us fulfill our power and hero and superiority fantasies. Games are supposed to be escapism from the existential dread called life, not an extra challenge to give us frustration and feelings of inadequacy

 

[Kut]

I think his exploiting the retreat option. Not archers.

We can do this same thing with javelin infantry. Are javelin infantry is OP then ?

We also can do same thing with heavy cavalry charge. After the first charge, we can retreat too. Thereby we can maximise cav's damage and minimize their recieved damage..

Retreat via menu is must change. It's almost cheating like this. Retreat via F keys command can be replace this. With this way, it's more fair and immersive imo...

 

[Dionaea]

It's working though, I had given up on my most fun campaign because I had an unwinnable battle.

I'm using the retreat exploit now, managing to kill about 5 to 7 enemies each time before I have to retreat or risk losing a soldier. Managed to whittle the khuzait enemy down from 415 or so troops to 365.

Still have a few dozen more times to go. taking a short break from it now

I'm so glad I finally got to exploit a Spiffing Brit exploit before taleworlds patches it (usually they patch exploits before I discover them)

 

[Marajah]

It's working though, I had given up on my most fun campaign because I had an unwinnable battle.

I'm using the retreat exploit now, managing to kill about 5 to 7 enemies each time before I have to retreat or risk losing a soldier. Managed to whittle the khuzait enemy down from 415 or so troops to 365.

Still have a few dozen more times to go. taking a short break from it now

I'm so glad I finally got to exploit a Spiffing Brit exploit before taleworlds patches it (usually they patch exploits before I discover them)

He still didn't show the best way to abuse that. It's in defensive sieges! Depends a little on the map, but you can kill 100 troops while they are breaking the gate, retreat, kill a 100 more as they move that ram again against the gate and so on. Easy way to win 10 to 1 odds.

 

[Dabos37]

It is me or archers are even stronger after the last hotfix?

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

It is me or archers are even stronger after the last hotfix?

Edit: Nevermind I haven't played them yet since today's hot fix
Edit: Played them some, they're the same to me as described below.
Well, compared to themselves in 1.4.3, no they're not as good (except some highest tiers). Basically they're slower/dummer, some have less ammo
But compared to other troops types in 1.5 and 1.5.1 they may be better by contrast, since other types got even more dum and the AI has new weird things it does.

To me there's a threshold where having large amount of ranged troops just obliterates an approaching enemy formation. With just 20 or so you can see they're just not as good as they were before. But with 100, even if they don't kill at as much range and speed (compared to 1.4.3) they still crush and enemy to the point where by the time they reach you they can't put up much fight.

That, said an equal power enemy ALWAYS reaches my line, even if greatly weakened, which did not always occur in older builds.