1.1.0 Caravan party size change?

[gejianya]

Were there other economy changes besides the ones to caravans and pottery workshops? The cities in my 1.2.0 campaign are all extremely poor. I haven't been able to sell my loot for a week now. A city spends all of its coffers before I can even hand over all of my 30g scarves in the trade menu.

The city store funds on all maps are only 2000-3000, and the loot after the war can no longer be sold, because no city can afford the player's broken equipment, you can only find caravans or lords to sell loot and equipment.

 

[gejianya]

1. Currently 1.2beta limits the number of caravans to 30, but the robbers will rob all players of the caravan within a month or two, and then the player has to travel thousands of miles from the west to the east of the map to connect the NPC Come back, this experience is terrible.

2. The city store funds on all maps are only 2000-3000, and the loot after the war can no longer be sold, because no city can afford the player's broken equipment, you can only find caravans or lords to sell loot and equipment.

3. Now, running a business is no longer possible in the city. You can only trade goods with the caravan, but there is a bug that the price of buying and selling a large number of goods will not float, so you can sell a large amount of goods to the caravan at the highest price. The unit price of the goods will not become lower, which is also a way for many current merchants to make money.

4. The city's prosperity is related to food. After the update, the city has no money to buy farmers' food. The city's militia and garrisons starve to death, the prosperity decreases, the city's economy continues to decline, and the player's tax revenue decreases.

5. For the bandit hiding place, the player just knocked out one and immediately refreshed one next to it, which is disgusting.

6. I believe that the purpose of this update and subsequent updates is to allow players to diversify their gameplay, but the current update player has only one gameplay in the early stage, that is to join the mercenaries and rely on the mercenaries to pay their lives. Therefore, the game has become a work game. You only need to work for the lord to get money to maintain your army. Opening factories and running businesses and being a vassal cannot maintain your army.

7. I play games after returning from work every day, I don't want to continue working for the boss in the game, because I have a dream.

8. We found a major bug, which can be used to obtain a large number of top-level troops, without any restrictions, you can experience all top-level soldiers in the game.

9. The bug that the store kills horses to obtain equipment has been fixed in this update. (Slaughter livestock to scare shop owners)

 

[R4MPZY]

I'm not trying to insult you, all you do here is nitpick my words bla bla you are a dev ass eater can't help that. All you can say is it's EA it's EA whats your problem man? Scared that this game will turn out **** or what? I read a date wrong wow boohoo still it's too early and stupid the change they made but you can't even see that. I'd say have a nice day dumbo.

Well yes, your main complaint was that they asked what the forums thought, and made the change the SAME DAY, which is untrue so yes, If that means i am what you say i am then i dont really care I feel sad for you living in such a tunnel vision of only the negative things.

And i'm not scared at all, already have 100+ hours in this game, cant wait for the total conversion mods µ

If you are so angry they nerfed your way of making money well, find another. And yes it is an EA game subject to minor or major changes in any aspect of the game, if you do not like that maybe you should wait a year.

 

[mexxico]

Were there other economy changes besides the ones to caravans and pottery workshops? The cities in my 1.2.0 campaign are all extremely poor. I haven't been able to sell my loot for a week now. A city spends all of its coffers before I can even hand over all of my 30g scarves in the trade menu.

There is a serious bug about town's money going to 0 quickly at 1.2.0. We will send hotfix for that today.

 

[Yakubog]

After this change game is runned hundreds of days for testing and still I am testing, I requested some player's save files who complained about their destroyed caravans. What I see is everyday 1 caravan is destroyed in all Calradia in average, in some days this number is 0 in some days it is 2. In total there are about 100 caravans. This means that average days your caravan survives is about 100 days.

To see your caravan 100th day is : 0.99^100 = 0.37 (37%)

In 100 days one caravan brings you 60K profit in average. In total you invested 18K and return is 60K in 100 days. This is average situation. However we cannot guarentee your caravan will not be destroyed at initial days. I know if this happens you become disapointed.

Of course there can be several problems. I see that caravans are not selling their prisoners and this probably slows them down after some point also they gain you relationship with notables after their battles with looters. These will be fixed. There can be some other problems too we will deeply examine it and make it better in next patches.

This math is completely flawed and I refuse to believe that you actually believe what you wrote. The fact that 1 caravan, on average, gets destroyed per day doesn't make your caravan have a 99% chance of survival each day. There's so many more factors in play here, location, caravan guards, ongoing wars, looters and bandits scaling progressively with passing time. So far I'm disappointed with the direction of this EA development. You keep "fixing" issues, without addressing their ACTUAL cause. There is nothing wrong with players having a lot of money. Cutting down on all money sources is making the game an incredible grindfest. You know what's the real problem? Lack of late-game content on which the players could spend their money. Honestly, just stop bull****ting everyone, this prolonged skill gain and reduced money gain serves only to hide the lack of working character progression (most perks don't work) or pretty much non-existent kingdom management.

 

[babelfisch]

This math is completely flawed and I refuse to believe that you actually believe what you wrote. The fact that 1 caravan, on average, gets destroyed per day doesn't make your caravan have a 99% chance of survival each day. There's so many more factors in play here, location, caravan guards, ongoing wars, looters and bandits scaling progressively with passing time. So far I'm disappointed with the direction of this EA development. You keep "fixing" issues, without addressing their ACTUAL cause. There is nothing wrong with players having a lot of money. Cutting down on all money sources is making the game an incredible grindfest. You know what's the real problem? Lack of late-game content on which the players could spend their money. Honestly, just stop bull****ting everyone, this prolonged skill gain and reduced money gain serves only to hide the lack of working character progression (most perks don't work) or pretty much non-existent kingdom management.

I believe you are confusing two different issues which need to be handled separately.

 

[JConnolly]

It is not a bug.

If your caravans are 60-80 people they are 99% safe again. We cannot get what we want (high risk-high profit). They are making you 0.5-1K profit each day. Their initial cost is 18K. Even if one year they survive you already make good profit. Caravans cannot be your only or main income source for years.

There are several income sources at game and you do not have to follow only one :
-castles / towns : 20% of prosperity as tax
-villages : 50% of profit from sold items are taken as tax
-workshops (everybody were runinng same 1-2 workshops, this is why pottery shop is nerfed, pottery shop was creating 2 potteries from 1 clay and this is way more profitable compared to other conversations thats why it is nerfed)
-caravans : they are making trade and you get 20% of their money when their capital passes 10K.
-battles : you get loot from enemy deaths, you get woundeds as prisoner
-tournaments

When you watch gameplays lots of people were feeding their armies with 1-2 caravans however caravans are only one small game element they should not be your main money source. If you feel they are useless or if you are in a risk group (if you have lots of enemies currently or bandits are overpopulated) you do not have to form a caravan. If you want more money sources you should try to get more fortifications you should increase your relation with other clans (I accept which is hard currently - there are less ways to get relation (will increase by time), one way is voting for them in elections by spending influence)

If you execute every lord you caught bandits are overpopulated in long term play. So your caravans are in more risk ofc. What you did in past have an effect in future. In future there can be new perks for giving your caravans +10 party size maybe but more than this is OP.

Caravans are good at early and mid game however in late game you should find other sources.

Q : Why forming a caravan costs 18K ?
A : You are giving 10K as initial money to caravan. They are buying their first trade goods with this money and all trade is initiated from this 10K. 8K is cost of 30 men you get. These troops are level 16/21/26 troops. They should be at least 250 denars per each one.

By the way Stewardship skill level of companion can give extra party size to caravans too in future however this will be so low compared to their normal effect when they form clan party. Trade skill is most important skill you should consider while selecting a leader to your caravan. (I accept there are less companions with good trade skill, however I am not dealing with this part)

Q : Why player cannot give trade routes?
A : It can be added in future. After major problems are solved.

"After major problems are solved", yet instead of addressing and solving the major problems, you're wasting development resources in nerfing caravans into the ground to the point where they are basically useless. Somebody ran the math and it turns out your caravans now have a 6% chance of turning a profit. 18k for 6% chance of a profit. How is that viable?

 

[Watercrown123]

"After major problems are solved", yet instead of addressing and solving the major problems, you're wasting development resources in nerfing caravans into the ground to the point where they are basically useless. Somebody ran the math and it turns out your caravans now have a 6% chance of turning a profit. 18k for 6% chance of a profit. How is that viable?

As the creator of said math that was based off of mexxico's earlier estimates. He's revising that to 1% now which would give a 68% chance of making profit which I still wouldn't take but isn't completely ridiculous. At this point we'll have to wait for more details. My poll still suggests that the majority are finding numbers much closer to the original but there will be some confirmation bias involved there and it's hardly a representative group yet at 40 last I checked.

 

[two13]

There is a serious bug about town's money going to 0 quickly at 1.2.0. We will send hotfix for that today.

I understand that there may be some special reasons fou you to be too busy releasing patches, or you are not in charge of this. But M&B is essentially a experience-driven game which players play for fun, not for pushing themselves to struggle in solving problems as what we do in competitive games. M&B is for players to play at will, not for Taleworlds to teach how players should play. I dont understand why when you have a whole lot of contents to fill in this early access semi-finished product, your focus is not to improve gameplay experience but to 'adjust' it, or ruin it as it seems. It's not wrong that you are trying to lengthen playing period per save, the approach, however, should not be violently decrease players' gain per time unit, but to add more playable, enjoyable subjects, and to improve the existing systems. Ubisoft's Division 2 has been ruined for similar reasons, and such occasion is especially dangerous for a EA game whose positive comments can be fairly vulnerable. I truly dont want to see M&B meet an end like that. Please, beware of M&B's current situation.

 

[shnauser]

The entire thread with poll asking players thoughts about caravans and if they should be
100% safe or have a risk was a joke to begin with. It came at the question from the point of view that in that version of the game caravans where 100% safe which they where not.
Most people would agree that there should be a risk and as such that was the top poll answer, but that lead the developers to go with the change as they felt they where 100% safe which they weren't in the first place.
Caravans where fine the way they where. Small risk but a risk non the less.
I'v had multiple caravans robbed by enemy factions even loosing one to a pack of 50 sea raiders. That was fun. Having to ride across the entire map to Vlandia to get my companion back loosing one of my castles in the process as i was not in a position to guard it.

With this change caravans are pointless until you have enough money to gamble the risk of 18k. Probably never. Or why would you ever?
Game is a mind numbing slogg early game until you have a fixed income that can sustain an army that allows you to take part in sieges and larger battles. Loosing the option of caravans simply reduces your options and goals in how you play as you build for the next phase where you get to take part in larger skirmishes.

Did caravans generate to much money? Yes. Where they 100% safe? No. Are they better now? No.
They are pointless now.

 

[Granitekey]

First I'll just say that I appreciate your thorough response and I can definitely see some reasoning in your points.

Now, when it come to actual gameplay, since downloading the new patch my 3 caravans have all been destroyed within 15 minutes of playing...
2 were killed by Looters, and 1 by an enemy Lord.

I currently play as a Vlandian hybrid Merchant/Mercenary, where we trade during peace and we go to war when necessary.
I rely on my workshops and caravans to provide for my party during peace time.

As stated before, all of my caravans were totally destroyed 15 minutes into the new patch! Clearly this is not a risk I'm taking but rather I'm throwing my gold away...

I can clearly understand the importance of balancing OP mechanics but please be a bit more considerate and think your steps through.

I choosed the same way to play the game like you.

But the main reason for me to form a caravan is to gain the 1 renown each day the caravan exists. I mean how do you reach higher clan tiers as a trader if you have just a few battles with looters and just by winning turnaments.

But if you have too much to do with picking up your companion and creating constantly new caravans is sooo annoying if they just have 30 troops to deal with.

I just want to say that I agree with your opinion and in my opinion you need a possibility to gain more renown if you loose your caravans all few hours..

 

[cnconrad]

After this change game is runned hundreds of days for testing and still I am testing, I requested some player's save files who complained about their destroyed caravans. What I see is everyday 1 caravan is destroyed in all Calradia in average, in some days this number is 0 in some days it is 2. In total there are about 100 caravans. This means that average days your caravan survives is about 100 days.

To see your caravan 100th day is : 0.99^100 = 0.37 (37%)

In 100 days one caravan brings you 60K profit in average. In total you invested 18K and return is 60K in 100 days. This is average situation. However we cannot guarantee your caravan will not be destroyed at initial days. I know if this happens you become disappointed.

Of course there can be several problems. I see that caravans are not selling their prisoners and this probably slows them down after some point also they gain you relationship with notables after their battles with looters. These will be fixed. There can be some other problems too we will deeply examine it and make it better in next patches.

Your math is not really correct or atleast you are implimenting it incorrectly. Lets use your numbers since you are a developer and have access to all the information you could want. 1% is much lower than my experience or anyone else I have heard from. But lets use the best case senerio to show just how bad caravans are at the moment.

At only 1% chance per day which is much lower than any tests I or any players seem to have gotten results on you only have a 37% chance to make it to day 100.

That means you have a 37% chance of making an actual profit of 60K-18K = 42,000 in 100 days which averages to 420 gp a day. 600gp a day ignoring the initial 18,000 in wages to start.


BUT it means you have a 63% chance of making less than 60k. That is terrible. At an average of 600gp per day you need around 30 days to break even. You currently have a 26% chance of not even breaking even. This investment is not remotely worth it. A 1 in 4 chance of losing money, vs a 1 in 3 chance of eventually making 420 gp a day which you have no control over.

Also remember we are currently only using a 1% chance if we use a 2% chance since you said a 1-2% chance its destroyed every day.
.98^100 that drops you to a meager 13% chance that your caravan will last 100 days to make the 60k in profit. But you have a 55% chance of actually losing money on your investment.



In what world does that make for good fun gameplay? If i asked you in real life for 18,000 dollars cash up front for a 13% chance to get paid back 60K in 100 days vs a 55% chance of not even breaking even. Would you do it?