1.1.0 Caravan party size change?

[hairlessOrphan]

Considering half the trade perks barely work does it even have a point

Which comes back to asking why TW would even bother trying to address balancing the economy right now when "half the perks" that affect it aren't working and most of the game systems that interact with it still aren't mature?

Anyway, if the question is, "were caravans too safe?" then the answer to that question is probably, "yes." But that question seems to be the topic of the other thread that you linked, and this thread is asking a different question, "is this an effective change for the game?"

 

[Ted Striker]

Considering half the trade perks barely work does it even have a point getting past the trouble of finding a companion that has trade to use as a caravan

And you can still make money from them, its just not a 100% risk free income anymore, just like any other workshop.

You don't make money until you've earned back your principle. If you spend 18k and caravan only lasted long enough to earn 15k (which doesn't seem easy to do now) you wasted your money.

 

[giltirn]

If the amount of profit per caravan was a problem why not reduce the percentage given to the player rather than making them more vulnerable? They have to be consistently worth laying out that 18k; it shouldn't be just a dice roll whether they make back the outlay before they are captured. I'm not interested in gambling.

 

[R4MPZY]

Because at the moment trade is possibly the least rewarding path in the game. Caravans get attacked within a few weeks of setting out, trade penalties have been upped significantly, and no other mechanics have been put in place to offset this.

I would say trade is still the most profitable thing, problem being after reading other users on the forums that the city wealth is dropping considerably so you cannot even do that anymore

Which comes back to asking why TW would even bother trying to address balancing the economy right now when "half the perks" that affect it aren't working and most of the game systems that interact with it still aren't mature?

Anyway, if the question is, "were caravans too safe?" then the answer to that question is probably, "yes." But that question seems to be the topic of the other thread that you linked, and this thread is asking a different question, "is this an effective change for the game?"

Well the topic of this one is about the caravan party change... And to that yes 30 seems more reasonable than 120, which rivals that of a faction leader

 

[hairlessOrphan]

Well the topic of this one is about the caravan party change... And to that yes 30 seems more reasonable than 120, which rivals that of a faction leader

The topic of this thread is not the size of caravans. It's about whether or not taking away player options with respect to caravans was good. At least, that's what I was going after when I started this thread. Source: I'm the OP.

 

[Melforne]

You can still earn 500 a day with workshops if you build the right one considering the base price of the resource they use in that city.

But caravans had a few problems, they never,ever get attacked ( atleast in 90% of the people in one of the topics discussed ). My caravan was at 120 party size, making me 2k each day and as soon a big enough army was close they ran at 6.5 movement speed, which even steppe bandits dont have ( fastest bandit group in the game ).

Even most lords dont have an 120 troop capacity. I'm currently at day 694 in my campaign ( the very first i started day 1 of EA ) and it never even got into any trouble at all. Aside from that i doubt even half the trade perks are working properly so assigning a companion with high enough trade doesnt do anything yet.

Buffing workshops may be an option but i'm still making 20K each day with a 200party size of elite troops, so there are still plenty of ways to make decent money. It just requires a little work sure, but it should feel as an achievement when you reach that point, atleast thats how i would like it

Well, if it's require you to put in some work to make it go smoothly then sure I might feel the sense of pride and accomplishment when it's a success.
But right now you literally don't have anything to with the success rate at all. It's either just work or failed misserably which, from the response by other player after this patch it's always failed 99% of the time now since caravan need to take quite some time to pays for itself but bandit can obliterate them literally in day 1.

If they let you invest into guard for your caravan, upgrade their speed, choose their trade route or maybe let you have mini quest saving them from bandit raid or something then sure that might be intresting, but right now it's just being either and ok-ish income for your army(I can get a lot more money from just selling loots I got from battle) or an easy way to waste all of your hard earn money.

 

[Rakean]

https://www.reddit.com/r/mountandblade/comments/g2hvhg

I hope those guys read how much they ****ed up with everything and roll back asap. That's legit a bug, not a feature. You can limit caravans to one at most, but not nerfing them ti the ground.

 

[babelfisch]

Having post on the forum the same day about an idea to nerf the caravan and actually doing it the same day is just bad. Has nothing to do with me thinking I'm knowing everyhing. I would love to work at a game company but I woudn't like living in Turkey at the moment.

Anyways every game company I've seen in my life right now plans these updates way ahead and makes ideas and doesn't just fix their problems with a quick nerf. If you would've actually read my post you would've known I bought an EA game and they working on an EA game would let me to believe they actually would fix the problems we encounter, and I have seen no complaint about the caravan until they started posting about it themselves. Now they got it patched with some nerf and didn't counter the problem at all.

I know something can change but just going about changing it the same day and they will fix it next week again is just stupid planning. You said I know everything but it seems you know it better with your EA blabla. excuses aren't a way to just nerf it quickly and don't think about it anymore it seems they have done that the last 5 years because alot of stuff that seemed apparent didn't get fixed when the game released in EA simple stuff like idk selling a fief to the player which I can just trade for free. If they wanna fix go ahead but at least PLAN.

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/caravans-should-be-safe-income-source-or-not.414500/

 

[two13]

Nerfing caravans seems to result in the considerably decreased liquidity in a long term, when towns at 7k+ prosperity have only some 100 Dinars......
I'm wondering why in this case where the major systems are not completed yet thay are puting resources into such controversial changes,without any obvious improvement of game play experience(which is even worsesometimes)

 

[BattanianDruid]

It is not a bug.

If your caravans are 60-80 people they are 99% safe again. We cannot get what we want (high risk-high profit). They are making you 0.5-1K profit each day. Their initial cost is 18K. Even if one year they survive you already make good profit. Caravans cannot be your only or main income source for years.

There are several income sources at game and you do not have to follow only one :

The problem isn't a lack of sources of income mid or late game when the player already owns a fief or two. The issue is early game when the player is trying to build up a mercenary force big enough to actually threaten enemy lords and break into the big, fun battles we all play this game to experience.

I am doing a Sturgia game right now. It has been brutal. Raganvad lead us into a series of crushing defeats at the hands of the Vlandians and I've been scraping by fighting looters for a couple hours now trying to save up money to....

I guess buy a shop? I am definitely not going to form a caravan in the current state. 18K denars is a lot to save up on the super early game before I can even reliably take on enemy caravans. There is no way that I am paying that cost for something that has a high probability of being raided before I get a return on that investment.

This change has effectively removed caravans as an option for me. Instead I am just spending more time fighting looters and bandits to eventually get enough renown to become a lord, and fighting looters exclusively for that long is pretty boring.

Caravans were a perfect bridge between early game and mid-game. They provided a relatively safe way to cut early game costs enough to expand your army into something formidable. Now I am not sure what use they have. If you have enough money to take a big risk on a caravan you don't actually need that money in the first place, so why would you take the time to build one?

 

[R4MPZY]

The topic of this thread is not the size of caravans. It's about whether or not taking away player options with respect to caravans was good. At least, that's what I was going after when I started this thread. Source: I'm the OP.

I know you are the OP, however the title is literally 1.1.0 caravan party size changes and not "1.1.0 takes away player options" which it still does not, the nerf may not be great and needs some balancing, but 100% safe caravans wasnt great either, that is basically another exploit like the 300K a day carpenter.

Well, if it's require you to put in some work to make it go smoothly then sure I might feel the sense of pride and accomplishment when it's a success.
But right now you literally don't have anything to with the success rate at all. It's either just work or failed misserably which, from the response by other player after this patch it's always failed 99% of the time now since caravan need to take quite some time to pays for itself but bandit can obliterate them literally in day 1.

If they let you invest into guard for your caravan, upgrade their speed, choose their trade route or maybe let you have mini quest saving them from bandit raid or something then sure that might be intresting, but right now it's just being either and ok-ish income for your army(I can get a lot more money from just selling loots I got from battle) or an easy way to waste all of your hard earn money.

What i think would be ideal, in times of peace you would like a "cheap" caravan of 30 mid-tier men, in times of war you should be able to invest a little into them, increasing the size/having a patrol of different tier units depending how much you want to invest, better to earn less than nothing at all right?

When the war is over and the danger more or less gone ( except for bandits ofcourse ) you can revert them back

 

[two13]

The problem isn't a lack of sources of income mid or late game when the player already owns a fief or two. The issue is early game when the player is trying to build up a mercenary force big enough to actually threaten enemy lords and break into the big, fun battles we all play this game to experience.

I am doing a Sturgia game right now. It has been brutal. Raganvad lead us into a series of crushing defeats at the hands of the Vlandians and I've been scraping by fighting looters for a couple hours now trying to save up money to....

I guess buy a shop? I am definitely not going to form a caravan in the current state. 18K denars is a lot to save up on the super early game before I can even reliably take on enemy caravans. There is no way that I am paying that cost for something that has a high probability of being raided before I get a return on that investment.

This change has effectively removed caravans as an option for me. Instead I am just spending more time fighting looters and bandits to eventually get enough renown to become a lord, and fighting looters exclusively for that long is pretty boring.

Caravans were a perfect bridge between early game and mid-game. They provided a relatively safe way to cut early game costs enough to expand your army into something formidable. Now I am not sure what use they have. If you have enough money to take a big risk on a caravan you don't actually need that money in the first place, so why would you take the time to build one?

I find Sturgian units too weak comparatively at present, both in singleplayer and multiplayer, seems incompleted

 

[Incanuth]

I think the primary problem with this change is that it makes sense in the context of a "normal" conquest-focused playthrough one might do their first couple of campaigns, but not so much in the larger scope of a sandbox/simulation in which players are given tools which facilitate a myriad of play-styles. If someone wanted to play as a merchant, for example, this change now hurts one of the few mechanics we had to interact with in that role. It already felt lackluster, but was just about the only mid-game you had as a merchant. This change would actually be fine if it had been done along with other changes that make caravans something you can interact with more, not just having it off doing its own thing while all you can really do is hope the caravan survives.

Money from caravans was nothing next to what you get from battles or being a mercenary; this change kind of just funnels you towards the war/conquest playstyle because the alternative is an even worse slog than before to hit 225 trade skill (where your only late game mechanic is as a merchant). Because the trade skill is bugged and doesn't get exp from having caravans, you have to run the same couple of efficient trade routes and sell for a profit many many times. Caravans were nice in that their extra income allowed you to do bigger trades and keep some steady progress on leveling trade - which, as I pointed out, can only be done one way at the moment.

Really all we need are more tools/ways to interact with caravans, and maybe those are coming. (More interaction would be nice in most other aspects of the game as well, not just as a merchant)

 

[R4MPZY]

Caravans were a perfect bridge between early game and mid-game. They provided a relatively safe way to cut early game costs enough to expand your army into something formidable. Now I am not sure what use they have. If you have enough money to take a big risk on a caravan you don't actually need that money in the first place, so why would you take the time to build one?

In times of peace i would agree, but in times of war there should never be a 100% safe income source. Even workshops or fiefs are not 100% safe so why would a caravan be ?

 

[BattanianDruid]

In times of peace i would agree, but in times of war there should never be a 100% safe income source. Even workshops or fiefs are not 100% safe so why would a caravan be ?

They already weren't 100% safe before the nerf. I've personally lost a few caravans due to enemy lords attacking my caravans prior to the change, but they were safe enough that I could expect to get a return on my investment before such a thing occurred barring really, really bad luck. Now it is almost expected that I won't get my money back.

 

[mexxico]

After this change game is runned hundreds of days for testing and still I am testing, I requested some player's save files who complained about their destroyed caravans. What I see is everyday 1 caravan is destroyed in all Calradia in average, in some days this number is 0 in some days it is 2. In total there are about 100 caravans. This means that average days your caravan survives is about 100 days.

To see your caravan 100th day is : 0.99^100 = 0.37 (37%)

In 100 days one caravan brings you 60K profit in average. In total you invested 18K and return is 60K in 100 days. This is average situation. However we cannot guarentee your caravan will not be destroyed at initial days. I know if this happens you become disapointed.

Of course there can be several problems. I see that caravans are not selling their prisoners and this probably slows them down after some point also they gain you relationship with notables after their battles with looters. These will be fixed. There can be some other problems too we will deeply examine it and make it better in next patches.

 

[R4MPZY]

They already weren't 100% safe before the nerf. I've personally lost a few caravans due to enemy lords attacking my caravans prior to the change, but they were safe enough that I could expect to get a return on my investment before such a thing occurred barring really, really bad luck. Now it is almost expected that I won't get my money back.

They were about 90% safe depending on how your faction is doing in the war against others. In over 700 days none of my caravans ever got attacked, atleast now they are

 

[kwando]

Please you couldn't even use something as basic as a search function so instead you just say they made the topic and nerf the same day so i highly doubt insulting me proves anything

And there have been several posts about caravans since the workshop nerfs last week. Many people were wondering why 4 workshops combined can hardly make 2k together, when 1 caravan easily makes more profit.

But again... search function..

I'm not trying to insult you, all you do here is nitpick my words bla bla you are a dev ass eater can't help that. All you can say is it's EA it's EA whats your problem man? Scared that this game will turn out **** or what? I read a date wrong wow boohoo still it's too early and stupid the change they made but you can't even see that. I'd say have a nice day dumbo.

 

[Watercrown123]

After this change game is runned hundreds of days for testing and still I am testing, I requested some player's save files who complained about their destroyed caravans. What I see is everyday 1 caravan is destroyed in all Calradia in average, in some days this number is 0 in some days it is 2. In total there are about 100 caravans. This means that average days your caravan survives is about 100 days.

To see your caravan 100th day is : 0.99^100 = 0.37 (37%)

In 100 days one caravan brings you 60K profit in average. In total you invested 18K and return is 60K in 100 days. This is average situation. However we cannot guarentee your caravan will not be destroyed at initial days. I know if this happens you become disapointed.

Of course there can be several problems. I see that caravans are not selling their prisoners and this probably slows them down after some point also they gain you relationship with notables after their battles with looters. These will be fixed. There can be some other problems too we will deeply examine it and make it better in next patches.

I'd just like to point out that while the average death rate of caravans is 1 per day, isn't that mainly counting AI caravans that from what I've seen are still up at 40-50 men rather than the 30 that the player gets? It seems around 40 is a critical number because the moment it drops below that there seems to be a far higher rate of caravans being destroyed. I'll just throw in a little plug to my own poll thread where I'm trying to collect a larger sample of people's experiences, maybe that can give you a little bit of extra data to use?

I might be totally misunderstanding your data set though and in those tests you had all caravans set to 30?

 

[Pillowpants]

After this change game is runned hundreds of days for testing and still I am testing, I requested some player's save files who complained about their destroyed caravans. What I see is everyday 1 caravan is destroyed in all Calradia in average, in some days this number is 0 in some days it is 2. In total there are about 100 caravans. This means that average days your caravan survives is about 100 days.

To see your caravan 100th day is : 0.99^100 = 0.37 (37%)

In 100 days one caravan brings you 60K profit in average. In total you invested 18K and return is 60K in 100 days. This is average situation. However we cannot guarentee your caravan will not be destroyed at initial days. I know if this happens you become disapointed.

Of course there can be several problems. I see that caravans are not selling their prisoners and this probably slows them down after some point also they gain you relationship with notables after their battles with looters. These will be fixed. There can be some other problems too we will deeply examine it and make it better in next patches.

Were there other economy changes besides the ones to caravans and pottery workshops? The cities in my 1.2.0 campaign are all extremely poor. I haven't been able to sell my loot for a week now. A city spends all of its coffers before I can even hand over all of my 30g scarves in the trade menu.