0.93 Grumbles!

[Leifr Eiríksson]

Barabas, Moecker; you two have made such wonderful additions, fixes and tweaks to Vikingr. Both Rath0s and I are pleased to hell and back that we put you two in the care of Vikingr. I thank you, sincerely. The new patch is excellent, for the most part. I absolutely love Barabas' work on the shaders, the new armour textures and the other niggly little changes! Well-****in'-done chaps. 

Now to the horribly gribbly part...

Swords are really frustrating now. I applaud and love the new script for weapon reach and damage. It works perfectly for axes, dane-axes and spears. Perfectly. The combat in Vikingr has never reached such a peak, in my humble opinion. However, the relative 'nerf'* applied to these weapons has given swords a damnable large boost. They suffer from very little whiff and seem to still apply full damage from cross-guard to tip. This is a great frustration when the player now has to fully consider weapon range and relative distance to the enemy when in melee; the sword does not take this into consideration at all. I realise (ergo hope!) that this was unintentional and an oversight. As far as I am concerned, it is the only flaw in an otherwise near-perfect melee system** As I said with ye' before Moecker, if you're not careful swords will become far too prevalent amongst the players at the detriment of mod enjoyment and historical accuracy. Why take chances with an axe, irregardless of how fun it is, when one may take a sword and not risk that whiffing gamble? Prices need to go up across the board for swords vastly or they need to become limited literally across the player teams.

The edited siege mode feels OK. Although I cannot begin to express the frustration that may occur from having to sit idly for anything over x minutes as the map progresses. Defenders gain one life and one life only - that is OK, I'm coo' with that. However I am not, and I am sure others would not either, be cool with taking a throwing spear to the face in the first minute of siege, only having to sit there for a further ten minutes AFK. It's brutal...

Also; someone needs to fix the damnable wall on the interior of the second gate on that new siege map. Currently, once the first door has been broken, the enemy can hop over the walls and open the gate from behind.

* I say 'nerf' for lack of a better term. I don't think it's a 'nerf' at all, simply that against the sword it becomes evident where the flaw in the system is.
** Well, as far as Warband will ever go. 

 

[Moeckerkalfie]

You could have as well posted in the release thread itself, but we might as well use this one to discuss the changes to siege mode and the range script in more detail.
Regarding the minimum range script it has to be said that the idea was first of all to only get rid of the handle hits that have bothered us for so long with the old settings. For all the non-admins among us it should be noted that the script is optional and can be changed to be either deactivated completely, cover only (non-blunt) polearms or apply to both polearms and one handed axes. It was rather daring to apply it so far as we never could test it in the usual combat settings, and that is also the reason why we didn't do any obligatory compensations for it, as would be raising the sword prices etc.

But the fact that the script does not apply to swords is not an oversight at all. After all the idea was to get rid of handle hits, and those are not lethal with swords even in native. First of all we have to see if the script works perfectly, and while we didn't notice any problems so far we luckily always can be open for surprises with warband (just think of the shield bashing script and the reasons it is not implemented in Vikingr, despite being formally functional).
Should the script prove to work as wished we might eventually think of a few ways to make the swords more swordly, but one has to remember that in contrast to a longaxe the entire length of a sword is sharp, and if they whiff across an enemy they would still inflict cut wounds. Rather than evil scheming by Barabas and me to leave out any tweaking of it so far and ruining your game, the current implementation is more of a step into the direction of getting the weapon mechanics final. In the worst case we can always apply the script only to polearms until the next patch.

Likewise for the siege mode, the limited lives are optional. As it is in native one can choose either from 1 to 5 or unlimited lives, only that we enabled this to be set for the attackers too. The eventual goal is to implement a ratio that creates a biased team balance, so that there are more attackers than defenders, but for this patch we have to cope with giving the attackers more lives than the defenders. It is true that the siege can get very long that way, especially if you die early, but we will have to test around with different life settings, and after all it was the first map of siege that we played at all. While having only one life should make you play as if it were battle mode, so that you take as few risks as possible, maybe even longer ways to stay alive and eventually take or defend the flag, I saw many people playing as recklessly as we are used to from the unlimited-lives-setting, where it is considered normal to jump from walls and towers to attack the enemy team rather than walking climbing down a set of stairs.

And thus it might be worth it to give things a bit more time, and the same goes for the siege map that we played. While things like the error messages from changing the lives settings as well as the morale colour system indeed require a fix that we will probably be able to release soon, the map balance itself has to be left to trial for a few more games. Your first complaint was that people could move around the fortress, but you probably saw that once the defenders man both gates there is some serious crossfire, so that the attackers might be better off attacking the outer ring first and lowering the ladder from within to engage in wall-to-wall fighting at the causeway to get a better grip. But map balance is really a different topic and should maybe be moved to the community map pack thread.

Now one could make a special subboard for this thread, but I think so we can actually use it more it would be nice to get some more opinions about the limited-lives siege mode here. It is one of the bigger changes we made and once the hotfix solved the error messages (so far we worked it out already) we should get to play it more often too. The waiting time is a problem that I agree with, but maybe it is a worthy punishment to avoid the "directed team deathmatch" that siege mode is with unlimited lives. Thanks to a few structural changes in the module system we will be able to implement some more intricate mechanics for the future patches, and so one can hope for things like a attacker/defender ratio and similar things. But so far it would be interesting enough to see how it goes with limited lives only, and to see if many see it like Eirikr and prefer unlimited lives or whether there are any other preferences.

 

[Aklis]

I agree with Eirikr here. Before I half got the hang of the axe ranges, everyone with a sword just tore through me, and even if you've got it figured out, a sword-user can easily exploit you by stepping inside your arc, seeing as how he'll move quicker toward you than you can move away from him. Sure, a kick would solve your problem AND give you ample opportunity to whack your dastardly sword-wielding foe in the head, but it still feels like swords are too strong, in my mind.

 

[C_Ronin_Rico]

Well yeah i agree with Aklis. I'm not experienced about the game, its development and medieval warfare as you are, so i'm not sure i have the right of word here, but i always equipped 1 hand axes and even before the release of the latest patch, i was "complaining" about their speed and damage (too slow and weak).
A simple war axe is slower and shorter than a sword despite it is the half of its lenght and weight. The target is now unreachable, and when you reach it for an hit the damage is pretty poor. I hit many times my enemy tonight, but i almost never killed him, whatever i hit the back, the head or the chest. They are now pointless considering the new effectiveness of swords.
I also read some 1h axes are unbalanced. I agree on parries, but is this affecting the swing too?
Take it as an humble opinion of a common player who probably doesn't have enough knowledge about medieval weaponery and warfare. Also first night doesn't mean nothing, playing more probably will help me to understand more and more all your changes

Thank you again for your efforts! Best mod around here so far guys!

 

[hrotha]

I love what you've done with the axes and polearms. It's revolutionary and it adds even more of a unique character to Víkingr (when you install other mods, you're changing the setting; with Víkingr, you're changing the game!). This makes axes less effective, but that's how it should be IMO. Prior to this patch I rarely went with a sword, and I almost never even considered a short sword or the Gaelic sword.

The mod might benefit from further tweaking, of course. Ways to close the current gap between swords and axes could be making swords even more expensive (right now you can still get a sword for the very first round as basic infantry if you're willing to go without a throwing weapon), making axes even cheaper (which might work from a game balance point of view, although I don't like the implications of making it so that a warrior who only has an axe instead of an expensive sword can perhaps afford better armour than a warrior who does in fact own a sword; although this can already happen), giving axes higher damage values, increasing their bonus vs. shields (and increasing shield HPs at the same time), tweaking the swords so that there's even more of a damage difference between hitting at the perfect point of the arc and hitting in a way that only barely avoids a whiff (if that's possible at all)... The possibilities are endless. But I think we need to play a bit more, see what happens when people figure out the way axes work now and all that.

 

[Aklis]

Another thing that came to me is that, at least later in history, very rarely used the bottom half of the sword. Wouldn't it be possible to just add the script to swords as well, to enforce this?

It's a ridiculous idea, but it does make sense for gameplay reasons.

 

[Moeckerkalfie]

For now we just disabled the script for one-handed-axes, as it is a server-setting just like automatic/manual blocking. The eventual balancing of swords is better left for the next patch and done properly rather than making up a hasty solution right now. Still any criticism to the script itself is of course welcome so it can be fine tuned until next patch.

 

[Waidulf]

For now we just disabled the script for one-handed-axes, as it is a server-setting just like automatic/manual blocking. The eventual balancing of swords is better left for the next patch and done properly rather than making up a hasty solution right now. Still any criticism to the script itself is of course welcome so it can be fine tuned until next patch.

That's sad. The new script was one of the very improvements ever. I agree that swords have to be rescripted too in the future, but ...

 

[Moeckerkalfie]

As I wrote it is completely optional, so if you are a fan of it as it is right now you can simply turn it on again as admin for a while. But as the rest of the equipment is not really adjusted to it yet I would only use it sparingly as a prototype so to say, and keep it on the default setting of only affecting polearms for the bigger part.

There will be a next patch eventually, where we can properly adjust the sword/axe balance with the script, but things like that are better not done in a hotfix, and the reactions here show that applying the script to the one handed axes is not good for the balance with the current settings.

 

[C_Ronin_Rico]

Well the path of perfection is a long way to walk on, what's important is not follow the wrong road and we all agree you chosen the right one

 

[Horsa]

I have to say I like the new way axes work! Good job, it's more realistic now. Swords also cost more now and they also do less damage than axes.
It also seems that the combat pace has changed a little bit but I still don't have an opinion on that.

 

[Merlkir]

I have to say I like the new way axes work! Good job, it's more realistic now. Swords also cost more now and they also do less damage than axes.
It also seems that the combat pace has changed a little bit but I still don't have an opinion on that.

I haven't played Vikingr in forever and the thing I really didn't like (when I tried it today) was how I moved very slowly, it was almost floaty, like I was sliding. That will take som time to get used to, if I stick with it that long.

But hey, it's probably also frustration about how much I sucked.

 

[Dragomir]

I have to say I like the new way axes work! Good job, it's more realistic now. Swords also cost more now and they also do less damage than axes.
It also seems that the combat pace has changed a little bit but I still don't have an opinion on that.

I haven't played Vikingr in forever and the thing I really didn't like (when I tried it today) was how I moved very slowly, it was almost floaty, like I was sliding. That will take som time to get used to, if I stick with it that long.

But hey, it's probably also frustration about how much I sucked.

The movement seems faster than it was before the update, actually

As a runner, at first I didn't like it either. But with time I got used to it and saw how it encourages teamwork, makes the gameplay less random and native - like, so overall it's a nice gameplay enhancement.

 

[Horsa]

But hey...

It's not like you move superslow, but they added inertia so that you can't suddenly change direction with your body without experiencing a force, of course all spinning related weirdo moves are still there since it's a mechanics problem (even if not so evidently) but I think now it's a major improvement over native glitchy movement.
The problem is that you have to get used to the fact you can't go easily in and out the range of your enemy as you could before, thus blocking and footwork become more important than simply dodging and spamming. In my opinion.

 

[Partizan_Rusi]

It's not like you move superslow, but they added inertia so that you can't suddenly change direction with your body without experiencing a force, of course all spinning related weirdo moves are still there since it's a mechanics problem (even if not so evidently) but I think now it's a major improvement over native glitchy movement.

Now i get it with inertia that followed after increased armor mass.
So devs now can invent bicycle by adding Agility skill to classes that reduces movement inertia :]

 

[C_Ronin_Rico]

So that's what we have now, correct me if i'm wrong.

Swordsman have just to continuously backstep slashing the air until the top edge of the sword hits something for an instant kill/severe damage.
Axeman keep chasing the swordsman until the edge of the map, slashing the air frustrated by hitting nothing and finally killed by a nippy sword swinged 100 km far away from him.

Maybe i'm wrong.

 

[Hengwulf]

nah you are wrong. you need to throw the axe and steal the sword

 

[Hengwulf]

It's not like you move superslow, but they added inertia so that you can't suddenly change direction with your body without experiencing a force, of course all spinning related weirdo moves are still there since it's a mechanics problem (even if not so evidently) but I think now it's a major improvement over native glitchy movement.

Now i get it with inertia that followed after increased armor mass.
So devs now can invent bicycle by adding Agility skill to classes that reduces movement inertia :]

I think that is in Brytenwalda nowadays, though I only play Vikingr now.

 

[Horsa]

So that's what we have now, correct me if i'm wrong.

Swordsman have just to continuously backstep slashing the air until the top edge of the sword hits something for an instant kill/severe damage.
Axeman keep chasing the swordsman until the edge of the map, slashing the air frustrated by hitting nothing and finally killed by a nippy sword swinged 100 km far away from him.

Maybe i'm wrong.

Ahahah lol, I don't know.

The main reason you die in a situation like that is because when someone misses an attack he obvisouly doesn't get stunned and he can attack immediatly a second time. Recovery time is basically 0. So If i have a sword i can slash the air miss, dodge your tiny ax and attack again, and you can't parry because you're in the middle of your attack animation. Add a sidestep or backpedal a little and it's gg. And this is what every player does, even those who whine a lot about backpedalers.

The trick to avoid this in my opinion is to hold the attack a little bit so that you can get in range and don't miss, but being the ax very short and swords a lot longer, it requires a lot of skill,. much higher than wielding a sword.

 

[hrotha]

Usually, when I'm an axeman fighting an egregious backpedalling swordsman, I just let him be. No point chasing them indefinitely when you could be contributing elsewhere in the battlefield.