0.590 khergits need a buff

[allthesedamnnamesaretaken]

I think they need a little buff now. With the horse hitboxes fixed, they're being skewered left and right. When khergits come up, people leave en masse since noone wants to be stuck playing them.

They used to be nigh invincible to other cavalry because of bugged horse hitboxes but now they get chased down and horses killed by spears to the ass. Horse archery is useful on large open plains, but M&B maps are anything but, and people hate random featureless maps and they get voted off immediately. Therefore, they need to be balanced for the maps people like to play.

Their main problem is that they are supposed to be good at skirmishing, and can't do anything in a heads up melee. But skirmishing isn't very effective on most maps because you just get picked off by enemy ground ranged units who are smaller targets and more accurate than you. Their good armor is also a lot more expensive than other factions.

My proposal for changing the khergits would be to increase their strengths, and not make them better in categories that other factions excel at:

-increase their riding skill a lot so enemy cav in an equivalent horse can't catch up to them or maneuver as well as them
-increase their horse archery skill and bow proficiency so they are more accurate skirmishers.
-reduce their armor and warhorse costs
-reduce their athletics to discourage them from fighting dismounted on purpose. (or if already at zero, increase athletics of other factions)
-make their unique steppe horse worth using somehow?

Thoughts?

 

[silentdawn]

Called it.

Anyway I do agree with most of what you said. I don't think they should decrease there athletics they are already slow lumbering light infantry that get slaughtered in the village map. I think they should also get a horse with superior maneuverability for those closed in streets. They also need better weapon selection. For an all Cavalry faction they have little to offer for the lancers.

 

[Gabeed]

I think they could use Athletics to avoid the need for a separate footman class.  Otherwise, I'd wait regarding a buff--all the Khergits are used to the faulty horse hitboxes, and now different tactics are required.  I think that once people get over the shock that they just can't run infantrymen over and keep their shield up, we'll see the implementation of new strategies. 

 

[allthesedamnnamesaretaken]

I think they could use Athletics to avoid the need for a separate footman class.  Otherwise, I'd wait regarding a buff--all the Khergits are used to the faulty horse hitboxes, and now different tactics are required.  I think that once people get over the shock that they just can't run infantrymen over and keep their shield up, we'll see the implementation of new strategies.

The alternate strategy now is skirmishing, but their skirmishing skills suck. There isn't any other tactic out there. You either lance them or shoot them. What other strategies can you use?

 

[cdvader]

Nope. My score was 13 kills and 3 deaths today, I was in the khergit team VS swadians, the teams were uneven, 3 on our side 5 on theirs, yet I still reaped like a scythe in the crops. Although I do agree with a small boost to athletics, I still can kill easily enough.

[quote author= allthesedamnnamesaretaken]
-increase their riding skill a lot so enemy cav in an equivalent horse can't catch up to them or maneuver as well as them - Agreed. But not too much.
-increase their horse archery skill and bow proficiency so they are more accurate skirmishers. - The reticule is already at the maximum?
-reduce their armor and warhorse costs - No thanks, I usually have 10k gold spare when I play as a khergit, so that ain't a problem.
-reduce their athletics to discourage them from fighting dismounted on purpose. (or if already at zero, increase athletics of other factions) - No way! It'll be a huge disadvantage for Khergits in the Siege mode.
-make their unique steppe horse worth using somehow? - Agreed.
[/quote]

In overall: I can't see why you're complaining. I love khergits and I love playing them, and I guess I can say I'm good as them.

EDIT:
[quote author=allthesedamnnamesaretaken]
There isn't any other tactic out there. You either lance them or shoot them. What other strategies can you use?
[/quote]
I never use a lance as a Khergit Lancer, only a heavy scimitar and the best shield. Yet somehow, I still reap the enemy.

If you can't play as khergits, don't "blame" them being bad or something. I think they're great atm, no need to adjust.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

Erm, obviously "balance" involves the factions being basically on equal footing when the players are equally skilled. It sounds like you were just much more skillful than your enemies. If anything that makes you less qualified to comment on faction balance. You should be thinking about what tends to happen, not what happens for you personally.

 

[allthesedamnnamesaretaken]

3vs5 isn't indicative of a good even match. Get into one of the large 12vs12 or larger games and you'll see what I mean. arrows, bolts and axes flying everywhere and you'll be unhorsed real quick by that or enemy horsemen. Once you're on the ground you're meat.

If you're able to use your sword against infantry then they don't know what they're doing. A good team will have spearmen protecting their ranged units so anything other than lances are suicide.

 

[ignoble]

I think if the steppe horse had speed up to say, 45, and maneuverability increased further beyond other horses, it could solve some problems. If the khergits could turn on a dime, or perhaps jump higher (or jump at the current height while others cannot jump so well) while pursuers crashed into walls, it could solve the village problem. Or make a new horse with such qualities, and leave the current steppe as their free horse. Making horse armor more effective could also help. I find it rather frustrating that even warhorses get torn apart by thrown weapons and arrows. Considering the huge speed and cost penalty of the warhorse, I feel it should be able to take a somewhat worse beating.

 

[Arch3r]

You are right cdvader, many people complained about crossbows while they were already good in my opinion. Some people couldn't use them and thats why they thought crossbows needed a buff, but other people were very good with it already. Same for the khergits, you have to play smart with khergits, unlike the mass raping/horse-knock-overing before the 590 patch. Khergits will now be forced to stay in a group and try to separate footmen rather than attacking groups of them.

Also I think lancers do need a little buff, since they don't have many advantages over horse archers. They could use some more melee skill and maybe remove horse archer shields to make more people use lancers. I also think lancers could use some athletics because they're so slow on foot. And yes I also think the steppe horse needs to be better, more maneuverability.

 

[cdvader]

[quote author= allthesedamnamesaretaken]3vs5 isn't indicative of a good even match. Get into one of the large 12vs12 or larger games and you'll see what I mean.[/quote]
Alright, I'll bring another scenario what happened yesterday.

There was Vaegirs VS Khergits on the River by the Fort map, teams were around 15vs15 maybe? I was on the Vaegir team. Teams were balanced. Yet ALWAYS we lost, their score was 10 vs 1 in the end, we didn't even get a chance, even though we used tactics (We always held to the cabbage patch near our spawn). Now, you can't say everyone in their team was skilled?

Dunno, you must be either really bad as khergits or something. Hell, I think the khergits are actually overpowered. Also, I hope anyone remembers that battle... It was truly epic.

 

[allthesedamnnamesaretaken]

Every match I've played today with khergits involved, they've been utterly slaughtered. The reason is always that they can't touch enemy infantry. A couple of spearmen protecting ranged units will kill horses and then they get mopped up on foot where they can't fight for ****.

 

[UberWiggett]

the what 13 nil match with the swadians not 30 minutes ago was more for the 3 or 4 aussies playing for the khergits :/

 

[cdvader]

That would explain it.

 

[allthesedamnnamesaretaken]

That was just 1 of them. I played at least 5 khergit matches today. They lost every one quite badly

 

[SteveO]

Also I think lancers do need a little buff, since they don't have many advantages over horse archers. They could use some more melee skill and maybe remove horse archer shields to make more people use lancers. I also think lancers could use some athletics because they're so slow on foot. And yes I also think the steppe horse needs to be better, more maneuverability.

Can't Khergit archers also buy lances?  I don't play Khergit so ignore this if they can't, but I believe I remember someone on ventrilo saying they could.

If they can, just remove their ability to do so.  That should balance the two. 

 

[UberWiggett]

in truth, I did find khergits today a lot weaker than last night, even when not on horseback. Though again the match was several laggy people vs pings <100. And I am a noob.

 

[RalliX]

I am only thinking about the bugs currently. For some reason my first person view doesn't work.
(Elaborating: Whenever I press R, instead of first person view, it repeats the last 2 frames that were current when I pressed it, and when I press it again, it changes to normal 3rd person, and I can actually see where I'm going again.)
There are also a few problems when interacting with in-map equipment such as siege ladders, or the gate opener on the castle level, mostly because you can't open the gate for some reason(you can't press F on the opener)
(The siege ladders often can only be put up from a certain way, like, you have to go all around the ladder until you find the working spot you can press F on.)
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________
In any case, these need to be fixed, especially for the Nords', and Khergits' sake, because the Khergits cannot get through the front gate when on the offense in siege mode, and the Nords cannot charge the castle and put up the ladders.(Not without alot of hassle first.)

 

[allthesedamnnamesaretaken]

Well i just came off a game where khergits won 12-0 on ruins vs rhodoks, so I'm a bit divided now on this issue. Ruins is a very cav friendly map, and there were definitely some very skilled players on khergits that had scores of around 30-3. They do suck on infantry friendly maps though. Perhaps they need an infantry siege unit, just as nords and rhodoks received a cav unit they didn't have from native.

I still think that khergits should have better riding skill and something to make steppe horses worth using though.

 

[Giledhil]

I think they are fine : weak in close combat but deadly in open field.

 

[Berserker Pride]

Unless you want everyone ditching the game on a village or siege map if khergits come up the faction needs some options in its troop tree.  I can't even tell who is better at melee lancers or archers because they both suck so bad.  You can't leave a faction so one-dimensional that its only options are running people down outside or trying to skirmish from range.  I agree that in open fields the khergits will probably just have to adapt, but in battles like village or siege or any new close-quarters map they come up with the khergits will lose every time.  Crossbows are better and khergit lancers suck as much on the ground as they always did.  Khergits either need to give lancers better melee weapons(two-handers) and a 40 defense armor or they need some kind of infantry unit or mounted dragoon unit that can do both.  And giving the lancers some athletics wouldn't hurt either.  The first thing a side losing to khergits will do is camp.  Who do the khergits send in in that situation?