📁 Creative Unit Aesthetics - archive

[John the Roleplayer]

A lot of good material, Jerald. I agree that this would be a proper medieval look for the Battanians. Stating their inspiration as the Celts in the faction's descriptions was perhaps a bit misleading as it made people think of antiquity primarily. They could rather have said "early medieval Welsh and Irish".

 

[Kernowek]

A lot of good material, Jerald. I agree that this would be a proper medieval look for the Battanians. Stating their inspiration as the Celts in the faction's descriptions was perhaps a bit misleading as it made people think of antiquity primarily. They could rather have said "early medieval Welsh and Irish".

The word Celt itself is misleading. The Ethnogroup 'Celt' encompasses so many different peoples over such a long period of time that it's sort of lost it's meaning. We share a common ancestral link but there were so many differences, for example in antiquity and pre-conversion the Druids were the priests of only those Celtic tribes within the British Isles which then spread to Gaul later.

Even the Welsh and Irish are very different. Welsh, Cornish and Breton are the Briton's Celtic ethnogroup and Irish and Scottish come from the Gael's we share common threads but even though I speak Welsh (Southern) and some Cornish I cannot understand Gaelic apart from the odd word.

 

[Piconi]

I don`t mind slight anachrony in the name of achieving a consistent look , so i wouldn`t mind some early dark ages sprinkled in there, like i don`t mind Vlandian crossbows and longswords.
The thing is that the Battanian architecture, village/castle/town and character names we see in singleplayer and multiplayer videos tells us of one thing (not to mention a completely direct refference in the dev blog about Battania), but the Battanian current aesthetic tells us of a completely other thing, more Gatae-Dacian with some "Mad Max" rugged bandits flavour in there, and i personally dont think it fits very well.

Glad to see the community`s opinion is on consensus 100% (after this much time and replies we can freely say it) on the "Battanian Question". This faction needs love the most of them all, and lots of it !

 

[Noudelle]

I don`t mind slight anachrony in the name of achieving a consistent look , so i wouldn`t mind some early dark ages sprinkled in there, like i don`t mind Vlandian crossbows and longswords.
The thing is that the Battanian architecture, village/castle/town and character names we see in singleplayer and multiplayer videos tells us of one thing (not to mention a completely direct refference in the dev blog about Battania), but the Battanian current aesthetic tells us of a completely other thing, more Gatae-Dacian with some "Mad Max" rugged bandits flavour in there, and i personally dont think it fits very well.

Glad to see the community`s opinion is on consensus 100% (after this much time and replies we can freely say it) on the "Battanian Question". This faction needs love the most of them all, and lots of it !

I'd love it if Battania had an entire redesign throughout early access. I really don't want to see such poor art design in the final game.

 

[Kernowek]

I don`t mind slight anachrony in the name of achieving a consistent look , so i wouldn`t mind some early dark ages sprinkled in there, like i don`t mind Vlandian crossbows and longswords.
The thing is that the Battanian architecture, village/castle/town and character names we see in singleplayer and multiplayer videos tells us of one thing (not to mention a completely direct refference in the dev blog about Battania), but the Battanian current aesthetic tells us of a completely other thing, more Gatae-Dacian with some "Mad Max" rugged bandits flavour in there, and i personally dont think it fits very well.

Glad to see the community`s opinion is on consensus 100% (after this much time and replies we can freely say it) on the "Battanian Question". This faction needs love the most of them all, and lots of it !

I'd rather reach a point where the factions all actually look like they would exist in the same world at the same time, similar goals. Considering we got a sort of Irene of Athens era Rome, a pseudo Norman and Rus/Norse faction having Battania represent something archaic in comparison would feel really poor, myself being a descendant of the people who inspired the faction.

People seem to have this odd idea of the Britons and Gaels being the helpless isolationist celtic tribes, despite a large amount of Mediterranean Bronze being made with Cornish tin and Welsh Copper (Heracles travelled to 'The Land of Tin' past Gibraltar in search of one of his tasks for example) and there is a lot of evidence of there being no grand Roman invasion of Britain instead rebellions such as the Iceni came later on. There are Briton chieftains who had Roman style Villas and printed their coins with Roman symbols and in Latin.

My ideal Battainia is one that shows some of that early Briton flair with its jewelery and cosmetics while showing a Dark Ages inspired army to fit with the late Dark Age/early Middle Ages world Taleworlds have created. They're actually way closer than a lot of people seem to think, just need to trim that fur and hide down and show Celtic craftsmanship instead of the Monty Python peasants look.

 

[Piconi]

The thing is, if we were to take each faction's inspiration exactly from the period of time Taleworlds imagined Calradia represents (8-10th centuries real world), with zero anachrony tolerance, we would have at least 3 factions (Sturgia, Battania and Vlandia) looking almost exactly the same, having in mind the cultural pattern that spread from Rus' , through Scandinavia to Brittish isles and northern France/Germany, with very little to no distincive flavour whatsoever.
I am much more inclined to a Romano-british look for Battania, but following the general concept from at least some out of the many pictographic/illustrated archeological book sources :

Ian Heath - Armies of the Dark ages 600-1066, from page 76-80.

and for some specific units i would sprinkle a bit of

Stephen Allen - Celtic Warrior 300 BC- AD 100, pages 33-42 the beautiful Wayne Reynolds illustrations (although i very much prefer the king of illustrations, mr Angus McBride)

in order to gain some of that recognisable, popular culture full-on celtic flavour.

 

[Kernowek]

The thing is, if we were to take each faction's inspiration exactly from the period of time Taleworlds imagined Calradia represents (8-10th centuries real world), with zero anachrony tolerance, we would have at least 3 factions (Sturgia, Battania and Vlandia) looking almost exactly the same, having in mind the cultural pattern that spread from Rus' , through Scandinavia to Brittish isles and northern France/Germany, with very little to no distincive flavour whatsoever.
I am much more inclined to a Romano-british look for Battania, but following the general concept from at least some out of the many pictographic/illustrated archeological book sources :

Ian Heath - Armies of the Dark ages 600-1066, from page 76-80.

and for some specific units i would sprinkle a bit of

Stephen Allen - Celtic Warrior 300 BC- AD 100, pages 33-42 the beautiful Wayne Reynolds illustrations (although i very much prefer the king of illustrations, mr Angus McBride)

in order to gain some of that recognisable, popular culture full-on celtic flavour.

I am with you - After all some of the first images I posted here were these:

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Not too far from the late Roman look from the sources you pointed to - And some of the existing helmets Battania have are already of this style - The issue, once again is their actual body armour and clothing, which would, by making it look more like tunics of this period also reflect more of that old Celtic look at the same time and even the Celtic hauberk wasn't much different in antiquity, it's more the shield shape, spear tip shape and spatha design.

Most of the dev blogs put the timeframe in the 10th-11th (Vlandia is already pulling from 12th-13th) the end of the Dark Ages and the very dawn of the Middle Ages. The Vikings, from the very source books you have referenced sort of prove the 'They'll look the same' thing wrong - especially as there is no Anglo-Saxon style faction. Yes many nations had mail hauberks and riveted helmets, because that was how far technology had come. The Viking kingdom we supposedly have in the game are based on Eastern Vikings and so more Swedish Varangians (I know Norsemen came from all over to settle in the Rus later on) than Norwegian or Danish and will have their Slavic flavour. Seeing as the in game nations share a border I don't see the issue with them reflecting parts of the others armour design either, that's how neighbours influenced each other in reality, if every nation were 100% unique you'd have Chivalry Deadliest Warrior's Pirates, Samurai, Vikings and Knights thing (Planet of hats I think is the term I am looking for).

Never said take from it exclusively - Have another gander at this:

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A Dark Age Welsh clansman not too different from the Britons of antiquity but notice the Chi-Rho, by the 6th/7th century the British Isles were Christian but we had Celtic Christianity this lad is meant to represent the Viking Era Welsh. Here's what 'Christianity' looks like to the traditionalist Briton (Pretty much Paganism still):

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I don't mind the early Christian symbols being replaced with older Celtic ones seeing as Christianity doesn't exist in M&B. But rolling back hundreds of years for the sake of people remembering it from say Rome: TW1 is how you get William Wallace dressed like this:

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And wearing woad:

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Instead of this:

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Imagine being a 13th century Scottish Catholic and adopting pagan symbols from a 8-9 hundred years earlier. It's distracting for anyone who is from that culture, it's sort of like putting horns on Vikings to us (or putting a early Middle Ages Celt in this).

Luckily I have both of the books you referenced and yeah, I agree with you, however the helmets, weapons, shields etc should not be rolled back to antiquity and mixed haphazardly adding in antiquity scutums, leaf bladed spears and Iberian Celtic swords wielded by naked Gauls pretending to be Briton or Gaelic. By the timeframe we're looking at it had been ~500 years since the Picts were launching raids against Hadrian's wall manned by the late Roman legions, the Battanians in game should reflect that they had continued to live and evolve to match the invaders about them rather than be technologically stagnant. As far as settlements and castles go, it's hard because since the Roman era the Celts built in a very Roman style.

TLDR: Taleworld's are really close to something that a Briton or Gael can look at and be happy with their representation, but to shoehorn in aspects of 'pop-culture Celts' without careful consideration would do more harm than good. Just get rid of the leather and fur and give them proper hauberks and tunics with Celtic symbols, art and motifs.

 

[Piconi]

But Battania would have to be anglo-saxon if it we were to follow the timeline closely. Angles, Saxons, "Sutton Hoo" helmet-Vikings,Franks,Normans...you get where i was going.
We already agreed that going more visibly Celtic with Battania certanily doesen`t mean they be inferior in any way. We talked about that on page 21 .

And since you posted the Mel Gibson`s William Wallace, doesen`t this body armor piece look familiar ?

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I say we must wait untill some time arround EA and see if things start moving in any way aesthetic-wise, and if so (or not), then rally up in this thread with some more suggestions, and an arsenal of sources.
As a smart man once said :"Quid pro quo"

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

Most of the dev blogs put the timeframe in the 10th-11th (Vlandia is already pulling from 12th-13th) the end of the Dark Ages and the very dawn of the Middle Ages.

The Aserai and Khuzaits already take more from the 1400s and 1500s than the early middle ages. The game is chock full of "anarchronism" right now so it's clear the developers don't want to just recreate a specific historic moment.

 

[alieser]

Hey guys,
Great suggestions going here, please keep them coming! I have this thread bookmarked.
I wanted to let you know that we are currently working on an overhaul on Battanian armors, which are very much in line with the consensus here. I won't be able to share them yet, but you will be able to see them during the early access. We are also working on other stuff that I hope I'll be able to share in the future.

 

[anton97]

Hey guys,
Great suggestions going here, please keep them coming! I have this thread bookmarked.
I wanted to let you know that we are currently working on an overhaul on Battanian armors, which are very much in line with the consensus here. I won't be able to share them yet, but you will be able to see them during the early access. We are also working on other stuff that I hope I'll be able to share in the future.

Omg

 

[Kernowek]

But Battania would have to be anglo-saxon if it we were to follow the timeline closely. Angles, Saxons, "Sutton Hoo" helmet-Vikings,Franks,Normans...you get where i was going.
We already agreed that going more visibly Celtic with Battania certanily doesen`t mean they be inferior in any way. We talked about that on page 21 .

Whoa, calm down there my man. The Germano-Britons are culturally entirely different to the Britons and Gaels (The differences are what partially caused the next 1000+ years of conflict between England, Wales, Ireland and Scotland).
Even the word Anglo-Saxon is kinda misleading. The Germanic migrations consisted of Jutes, Angles, Saxons and Frisii and were seemingly well timed as many of the Romano-British tribes were not having a great time, for reasons we cannot really know. This is the time of myth where Arthur is said to have rallied those Britons who remained in Britannia to fight the Germanic hordes which seems to have set the outline of the borders between them for over 500 years. The other Britons who were able to move migrated also, to Brittany & some moved back to the Iberian peninsula:

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Those that remained under Germanic rule were put to the sword I assume many were taken as slaves and over time were assimilated into Germanic culture destroying many of the British tribes. As for architecture the Britons built on hills and other high ground areas, a series of fortifications were built all across Cornwall, Devon and Wales.
One of the most famous being Tintagel:

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The Sutton-Hoo helm was of a similar design to Celtic helmets of the era, but the decoration is all Germanic - It's almost Norse seeing as the Germanic migrants were of the old Germanic faith. They worshipped Woden and ironically, a couple of hundred years later, after having formed the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms and converted to Christianity (thanks to Irish missionaries) were invaded in turn by the sons of Odin and the Jutes descendants.
And then the Danelaw and Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms were swallowed up by the Normans, the Britons were originally friendly to the Normans, believe it or not.
The Normans and the Cornish got on extremely well, Cornwall swore loyalty to the newly established Norman 'English' and by 1129 was made a Shire, even later become a Duchy of England in 1351.

The best use of Anglo-Saxon influence would actually be the Empire's Varangian Guard equivalent - After 1066 most of the Varangian Guard were landless Anglo-Saxon nobles and warriors.

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Battle of Dyrrhachium 1081 - essentially Hastings 2. The Byzantines Anglo-Saxon Varangian Guard against the Normans once again.

I've said that I am down with old Celtic symbols, art and decoration for gear, but dark age British equipment should be what they use ahaha.

And since you posted the Mel Gibson`s William Wallace, doesen`t this body armor piece look familiar ?

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This mess is exactly what I mean, the helmet is fine but the rest . No Braveheart Britons/Gaels. Nope. Get rid of that fur, no kilt and swap that time travelling coat of plates for a hauberk.

I say we must wait untill some time arround EA and see if things start moving in any way aesthetic-wise, and if so (or not), then rally up in this thread with some more suggestions, and an arsenal of sources.
As a smart man once said :"Quid pro quo"

I hear that brother.

The Aserai and Khuzaits already take more from the 1400s and 1500s than the early middle ages. The game is chock full of "anarchronism" right now so it's clear the developers don't want to just recreate a specific historic moment.

Not at all, the rise of Islam was 632-700 and after this the various Islamic Kingdoms were almost perpetually in conflict with the Byzantines over Anatolia and the North African provinces. The Mongolians are not the only Eurasian steppe people there was the Avars, Alans, Khazars, Bulgars, Magyars all throughout this period who were following the success of the Huns, Rugians, Goths etc.

Hey guys,
Great suggestions going here, please keep them coming! I have this thread bookmarked.
I wanted to let you know that we are currently working on an overhaul on Battanian armors, which are very much in line with the consensus here. I won't be able to share them yet, but you will be able to see them during the early access. We are also working on other stuff that I hope I'll be able to share in the future.

This is great news! Clean up their craftsmanship, lose the fur and hide, add in some nice antiquity style decoration and you've got a certified winner chief.

 

[gopat]

Hey guys,
Great suggestions going here, please keep them coming! I have this thread bookmarked.
I wanted to let you know that we are currently working on an overhaul on Battanian armors, which are very much in line with the consensus here. I won't be able to share them yet, but you will be able to see them during the early access. We are also working on other stuff that I hope I'll be able to share in the future.

That's awesome news, thanks for letting us know

 

[Captain Obvious]

Woah loving the sound of the overhaul, can't wait!

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

Not at all, the rise of Islam was 632-700 and after this the various Islamic Kingdoms were almost perpetually in conflict with the Byzantines over Anatolia and the North African provinces. The Mongolians are not the only Eurasian steppe people there was the Avars, Alans, Khazars, Bulgars, Magyars all throughout this period who were following the success of the Huns, Rugians, Goths etc.

I know that, but the actual armour they're using is more like something from the 1500s or even 1600s than the 1000s. Not that there is anything wrong with this; if they based everything off the 1000s then most of the factions would be identical.

 

[Kernowek]

I know that, but the actual armour they're using is more like something from the 1500s or even 1600s than the 1000s. Not that there is anything wrong with this; if they based everything off the 1000s then most of the factions would be identical.

Armour technology wise they're similar enough to the Khazars who were defiantly there pre-1000ad as they fought the Varangians & Rus. They just have a more Mongolian/Eastern Steppe clothing & decoration style.
From the Dev blog "The Khuzaits are based partially on the Mongols but also on their more modest cousins, the Avars, Göktürks, Kipchaks, and Khazars, who were more regional powers than global ones."

7th-11th century.

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8th-9th

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5th century Huns

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Mash them up and you've got the Khuzait without going to 1500.

 

[Kernowek]

Here's another big Battania dump:

Settlements and Fortifications:

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Clothing:

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Warriors:

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The High King:

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Most of it deriving from the late Roman Legions (especially seeing as the Briton Auxiliaries made up part of that force).

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[Revverie]

And since you posted the Mel Gibson`s William Wallace, doesen`t this body armor piece look familiar ?

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I dont want to be mean but im a fashionable man and that outfit looks hideous. I mean if they're aiming for an outfit that looks cool instead of realistic/historic this is definitely NOT hitting the nail, the armor here looks more plastic and it doesn't combine with the fur up there is like hanging there and looks taken out of another place, the green skirt is horrible too that colour tone does not fit the scheme and the gloves with the white shirt omg no. It's time for fashion review guys. Imo I would remove the fur in the neck and see how it goes, and I would change that green for another tone, and make it bigger on the chest, like the one on the left, it looks like a towel rather than a skirt.

 

[Noudelle]

Hey guys,
Great suggestions going here, please keep them coming! I have this thread bookmarked.
I wanted to let you know that we are currently working on an overhaul on Battanian armors, which are very much in line with the consensus here. I won't be able to share them yet, but you will be able to see them during the early access. We are also working on other stuff that I hope I'll be able to share in the future.

That's great to hear
This is one of my biggest complaints with the game and I'm very glad it's getting fixed.

 

[Quiet_Monk]

Hey guys,
Great suggestions going here, please keep them coming! I have this thread bookmarked.
I wanted to let you know that we are currently working on an overhaul on Battanian armors, which are very much in line with the consensus here. I won't be able to share them yet, but you will be able to see them during the early access. We are also working on other stuff that I hope I'll be able to share in the future.

Best news so far this week