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Askthepizzaguy said:

Xardog, hells to the yeah. Now just get Phonemelter and Llandy in here and it will be a party.

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I'll hold out hope that they, and others, check in on the forum some day again and I manage to drag them on Discord, but unfortunately messaging them here is still the best that I can do for almost everyone that used to play.

But hey, I think we've got five (edit: six, counting myself) people with Xardob checking in, and there's half a dozen others that I think might check in on the forum within a reasonable timeframe and still be interested in playing. Adding to that Mahud, and maybe a few others that could play over voice chat, and I think we've got just enough to keep the hope alive!

Speaking of, do you want me to PM you a link as well, Pizza, when I get around to setting up the server? Maybe you'll somehow manage to steal an evening for a game at some point, or at least I'm sure you'll be able to help keep the chat alive.

Adaham said:

Damn, GIFs are gonna be tricky. Anyway, do what you suggested, I wouldn't hold out a lot of hope of this having any success. The less we invest and expect, the higher the chances of actually having some fun.

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Yeah, from what I'm seeing this forum isn't really a valid place to be organizing games anymore. The best we can hope for is to try to find as many of the old players as possible.

With that being the case, I'm increasingly thinking that the priority should be to just get as many people as possible on a Discord server. It would make it much easier to keep in contact with anyone that is still interested in the long term, and it would definitely make it easier to bring new players along. Even if we can't get a game organized right now, anyone who is interested in playing at some point could at least keep in touch without having to check in on a forum that most don't use otherwise.

That said, what do you think about playing some games over voice chat? There are quite a few people that I think might be convinced to spend a few hours that way, who aren't going to be convinced to play on the forum. Scheduling a time that works for everyone has its own difficulties, but in general it's still a much smaller commitment than a game that you have to check in on for weeks or even months, so I think we'd definitely have a larger pool of players to work with.

Sounds good. I was thinking of how I could apply an approach in the same spirit to hosting. First thing that comes to mind is assigning roles solely based on what amuses me, which could also be a good way to annoy you lot enough to make someone else volunteer to host.

Damn, I guess it can't be helped. We'll have to let you play.

Hey, I genuinely enjoy reading your ramblings. I'll have to get back to it once I'm done reveling in the glory of our wolf quicktopic first though. I think it speaks volumes about our pack that I was able to make this prediction less than 24 hours into the game:

"I don't really have any qualms with lynching my packies, but I'm afraid that I'll be lynched next anyways even if I do. I think we are going to have to count on Llandy to carry us this game. "

I honestly don't recall how it went down after I died, because I wasn't really following afterwards, and only read up later. What I do know is that so much of the credit goes to Llandy though. Actually the scariest villain I've ever had the pleasure to play with or against. She took the initiative to buss me hard, so that I could actually make the case that she was never my packmate, and then actually carried it all home after I basically committed suicide to make the point.

@Askthepizzaguy: I imagine I'll be referring to these suggestions a lot if this effort gets off the ground, thanks!

BTW, I'm currently rereading the game that we played together. And man, it's one of my favorite games in retrospect. Mind you, at the time I was so sick of playing a villain again, and it was unfortunate that almost everyone else was also struggling with motivation. But I still managed to pull off perhaps my best villain move ever. Right now I'm about chuckling how you actually managed to come up with a theory where I was bussing both of my teammates almost from the first page - because that's totally something I would do if I had the chance.

Ahh, the nostalgia.

Askthepizzaguy said:

Since I last played here, my wife and I have a 1 year old son and a daughter due literally any day now. Surprised she has not come already.

So I have to hard pass on being in a game at the moment, because I would probably miss entire phases. That's never fair on the game hosts and last time I played here, game hosts always had inactive peeps.

I swung by because I was gathering up links and records of every game I have ever played anywhere, as I am writing a player's guide to being town and werewolf in the game of werewolf or mafia, whichever we call it. The project has no deadlines and can be put on hold indefinitely if need be, so thats what I am doing since I cant play werewolf right now, and maybe not for a while.

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Well, that's entirely fair! I wish you luck, and maybe we'll get a chance to play together some other time.

Dago Wolfrider said:

I am still alive and probably able to play, thanks Moose for letting me know.

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And with the two of you, that makes three of us! It's already going better than I expected.

I've bugged Xardob, Eternal and Mahud on Steam as well. Still waiting on replies from the first two. Mahud isn't up for all the reading, but he suggested the idea of playing games over Discord voice, which isn't a bad idea either. Maybe a Discord server for Werewolf in general could work actually, both for more easily organizing the forum games and for quicker games over voice chat, which could maybe even help keep interest long term.

At some point I'll message anyone else I can think of, on the forum, but if anyone has better means to contact other people that used to play here, you definitely have my blessing for that.

And of course, it'd be great if we could get at least a couple of new players this time as well!

Makes sense, I suppose. For me Werewolf has always just been a Taleworlds thing. I doubt enough people check in on the forum anymore, but I'm going to do my best to scour through my Steam contacts for people, like last time.

I don't suppose you'd stick around for a couple of games, in case something actually comes of it?

Rather dead, it seems. I'm starting to get that itch again though, so shall we see if I can't pull off some necromancy a second time? At least there's been a few people checking in, and not like things could be much worse than last time. I'll even host to start with again, if we could scrap together seven players!

Also, huh, did username changes here get reset?

The third faction would have been revealed if one your ghosts was eliminated for whatever reason, and else when you got close enough to winning.

Roccoflipside said:

As far as ghosts not using the night chat as much, it seemed to me that, until the last night, discussing who we were going to use our powers on seemed... Backwards, since the wolves could jut read what we were doing.

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I don't think the ghosts necessarily needed to discuss their abilities in the night chat, though that could be useful as well. But people need to realize that the best weapon the village has is discussion, so if the dead are allowed to keep talking there's absolutely no reason to stop making cases on your favorite subjects and trying to swing the opinions of the living.

Xardob said:

Soot, the biggest problem with this setup I think is that the game would have worked much better with a couple more players, as you originally intended. As it was, it seems the setup had a few too many ideas for its size, making some ideas not pan out the way you intended.

In hindsight, I'd do a few things a bit differently. I think the most interesting change would be to start the game with a dead wolf as well. Let the wolves choose one of them to start the game dead and be able to influence the dead side from the beginning. It would make for a more dynamic game on both phases, I think. I also think the wolves should have a power to banish a soul each night in exchange for not killing anyone. It would give a balanced way for the wolves to deal with specials.

The third party is always an interesting element in a game, but it doesn't seem to have made any impact here. I think the biggest problem is that no one considered it a possibility. There was nothing to indicate there was another threat out there, so it didn't affect the discussion in any way. This is usually a common problem with third parties when there's no explicit statement from the host saying they exist. I'm not sure how to solve this because I'm not convinced just telling everyone how many factions there are is any better.

I was also surprised by the lack of participation from the dead during the night. I expected the villagers to make more of an effort to make cases against their suspects, but I guess the lack of direct influence on the lynch made the prospect of building a case less appealing. I think some mechanic that would force discussion during the night might help with this. Maybe give the dead a collective vote on the next lynch and have them discuss during the night which player would receive that vote?

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That first part is certainly true. I tried to adjust everything accordingly, but the 14 player setup still seems a lot better.

I don't know exactly how to handle starting with a dead vengeful spirit. Would you just start with two deaths on night 1, and give the village the information that one of those is wolf? Anyway, restricting you guys from having influence over the night phase was actually specific balancing decision I made; if the village failed to catch a wolf, they'd not be able to interfere with the specials, but the earlier that one of them died the more damage they would be able to do to the specials. But yeah, that could certainly work differently if attacking a ghost was simply made optional with the night kill instead.

I tried to hint at the Necromancer's existence in a few ways. The whole setting of the game was one big hint, and how he featured in the narration. Not to mention how I worded a few things, such as:

SootShade said:

No innocents or vengeful spirits have any special abilities before they become ghosts.

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Apparently it wasn't obvious enough, but I also didn't want to confirm the existence of a third faction. I have no idea why everyone discarded the idea so quickly however.

Giving the dead some influence over the lynch is certainly one idea. Maybe giving them power over banishment would work better however, for the simple fact that then they would be voting for who to off among their own number, creating the same dynamic as with the lynch.

Adaham said:

Also, Arch3r...could you tell us now why you were so vague as f**k? I mean, I get the Vieira thing, even though "just not talking to him anymore for a prolonged period of time" was maybe not the best way of handling that, but even at night you weren't as clear as "I scanned Curio. He's a villain", and instead put things slightly unclear. Was that something in your role, or...?

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Oh right, about that... Archer's ability actually didn't make him a seer, it just gave him a chat with a living player of his choosing. I quite specifically wanted to avoid any role that could directly reveal the alignment of any living players. I think he made up that part of the ability to test Vieira's reaction, but funnily enough things might have worked out if he'd just properly run with it to push people into killing Crassius, since he clearly had a strong read.

Xardob said:

[quote author=Adaham]Let's see whether Arch3r confirms the Curio scan. If that is the case, we won't be able to push for Xardob. But if it's unsure, then Xardob must die tomorrow regardless. His comments at the end of the day were too damning. Even the daftest members of team blue must see it now.

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I practically confessed after Dago's lynch and still survived the night. I think the only thing I left out was the nom, nom, nom. Luckily Dago self voted and it wasn't as satisfying, or I would do it.
[/quote]
Yeah no kidding, the fact that Hawk didn't immediately target you was a shock to me. Or that no one else tried to push him to target you for that matter. I think that was the most obvious oversight by the ghosts on the last night.

Also, here's a bunch of post game thoughts that I was writing up after Hawk decided to target Moose, which basically sealed the deal:

So, it was a bit weird, but there were a few things that combined to prevent the game from ending with the missed lynch on the third day. First of all, there were a whopping three roles out there by this point in time that could prevent a night kill – aside Jock and Dago, who worked as they described, Adaham could have sacrificed one of his bound ghosts to save himself. As any of those those preventing the night kill would not have been enough, Hawk as a 1-shot vigilante would have needed to kill a vengeful spirit as well. With half of the village being vengeful spirits there was actually a good chance there, but that didn't play out.

That said, the existence of the third team, Adaham and Brutus, was what actually prevented the game from ending right away when the wolves were equal in number to the rest of the village. Because the game shifted into a night phase, Brutus, as his bound (converted) ghost, counted against the wolves' victory condition (and for Adaham's). Note, the vengeful spirits had a similar ability, of being able to count as half a player during the night. This didn't come into play at all here, and it might have been overkill as an ability anyway. It was meant to balance out the Necromancer's ability, but considering that it took two nights for Adaham to convert a single ghost it was probably not necessary. Adaham as the Necromancer was the only one that had special abilities whilst alive, as well as another one specifically designed for his role if he became a ghost.

Other than that, the dead vengeful spirits got their abilities in the same way, and from the same pool, as the innocent ghosts, picked at random when they died. It was a bit tricky to design them all to work for both teams, especially as there were certain things I wanted to avoid – such as straight up scans on living players. Additionally the sheer number of abilities that could come into play was a concern, so I think some of the abilities maybe ended up a bit underwhelming. The stronger ones I tried to balance out to have distinct downsides. Some of them ended up quite interesting in my opinion, though. I also did have the idea to maybe turn one of the dead innocents into a vengeful spirit in death, but that would definitely have been overkill here. Though doing that and having the vengeful spirits start with two players on their team, in combination with the spirits partly counting for the victory condition, could have worked out better. That said, I don't think this setup really favored the vengeful spirits by much, if at all, taking into consideration the various mechanics.

In general, my intent with the game balance was actually for the game to drag out quite a bit longer in days. With the amount of roles that could prevent night kills, and all of them coming to play against the wolves by the final night, I thought there was a good chance of that extending the game. Additionally, the two different villain teams working against each other I thought would extend the game – well it did slightly, that just wasn't enough for a turn around. In fact, the whole design of the Necromancer role was to keep him in the game as long as possible so that he could counter the wolves, but that didn't really play out all that much even though he survived until the end even without said abilities.

Furthermore, I'm kind of shocked that the innocent ghosts didn't make more use of the thread during the nights, until the final one. I genuinely thought it would be a huge advantage to be able to have more people able to contribute to the discussion, especially when there was every reason to believe that half of them were confirmed innocents, and when none of them had to be considered as candidates for the lynch. I can see why there would be less motivation to talk after you are dead, and you can't directly contribute in the lynch (aside Brutus that is) though, and maybe the number of dead people as well.

There were a few other things that didn't come into play as well. The banishment mechanic is an obvious one, I do agree that it would have been too much to sacrifice a lynch to use that. The possibility of letting the ghosts have their own vote on that instead came to mind, and in hindsight I think it's better, but I was afraid the ghosts would die off too quickly when combining that with some of the other ways ghosts could die, and obviously it wouldn't have benefited the village here anyway. If one of the vengeful spirits was dead, they would have been able to eliminate one spirit every night, and the other part of Hawk's ability was to do the same. If Adaham tried to convert a vengeful spirit he would likewise have eliminated them.

So with all of that being said (I really don't get to WoT enough when I'm hosting), I hope you guys can see that I put a lot of thought into how to make this setup work, even if the result wasn't quite as I'd hoped. I think it could easily have worked out differently, and I would count this one as a clear case of one team outplaying another (and the third being angry at one of those). But obviously there's room to improve here, so I'd really like to hear what you guys think now that everything's largely revealed. And most importantly, do you guys think there's potential for having another game with a similar but improved setup in the future?

On that night no one slept. When even the dead were up and about, there was little hope for anyone to get any rest. The vengeful spirits, in their now practically rotting host bodies, left their homes almost as soon as the sun was down, walking out amongst the other dead. The remaining living villagers huddled in their homes as they waited for death to come to them. Soot fortified the ancient tower with every ward he could muster, though they seemed to break under the assault of the energies of realm of the dead almost as soon as he could raise them.

Moose was busy trying to drink himself into oblivion, just like the last two nights, when he got a visitor. In the dim candlelight of his home, he didn't even notice as a ghost passed straight through his closed door. Only as the spirit of Hawk came to loom over him did Moose feel a chill that awakened him from his stupor, but he did not have time to even scream before the ghost fell upon him, squeezing what life he had remaining out of him. Perhaps fortunately, Hawk, whose soul was completely shattered in this lack heroic attempt to save the village, would never know that Moose was, for all his faults, entirely innocent.

When the vengeful spirits came by some time later, having to break down the door on their way in due to the cumbersome bodies of flesh and blood their all currently still inhabited, the only ghost that could be found was a confused Moose who was just waking to his own unlife over the body he'd just recently vacated. Seeing that their visit was unnecessary, the vengeful spirits soon left the confused ghost behind, for they still had a purpose to fulfil. They had to plan for their final attack at dawn.

As the sun's dim and distant light began to shine through his window, Vieira did not feel joy at the fact that he had survived, but dread at how the world outside seemed no less dark and cold for it. Hearing a knock on the door, he poked his head through the window to see who it was. Seeing what appeared to be two walking corpses turn their heads to stare back at him, he withdrew back insid. But Vieira was already an old man to begin with, and the effects of the realm of the dead were the harshest on him. After seeing his beloved village completely destroyed like this, he was already resigned to his fate. Having never bothered to bar the door he simply sat down and waited as the two vengeful spirits walked inside.

At that moment however, a ghost seemed to appear out of nowhere, rushing at the vengeful spirits. Through the night Dago had stood watch over the village chief's house. Vieira, despondent as he was, hadn't even been aware that he and his home had been entirely separated from the village during the night by the ghost's powers, safe from harm. As the sun rose, Dago's protection faded away, but seeing how he had not yet been chased away by the sun's ever weakening light, Dago hoped that he might have enough power now to intervene directly. Unfortunately, he was not able to muster much of a resistance as Hamlet, or the centuries old soul now possessing the rotting body, held him back. Crassius meanwhile shambled over to where Vieira was sat down waiting. Barely a touch from the vengeful spirit was needed to drain the last of the life from Vieira's frail body. The ghosts of Dago, Vieira and Archer, who also emerged from the village chief's body with his death, could only watch helplessly as the vengeful spirits shambled off afterwards, looking for other victims. Rocco, likewise, watched in horror as the abilities of his ghostly form proved useless.

Jock had likewise watched over a villager that night, ready to sacrifice what remained of his essence to protect Adaham from harm. That had proved to be unnecessary, but instead he witnessed many shocking things, as he followed the guard that left his home soon after sundown. It appeared that Adaham had a bodyguard of his own already, as Brutus soon joined him, and he had intended to recruit another, though he was turned away from Vieira's home by some strange ghostly power before he could add Archer to his host of ghostly minions. By the time that they instead headed for the tower where Soot was holed up, Adaham, or rather the Necromancer, who was hidden within that body, addressed the frightened Jock directly.

"It's too late for this village now. Another life has just disappeared, and that old man is likely to follow soon. Protect the one that's taken residence in my tower, and there might still be a way out for your soul. Else the realm of the dead will soon swallow us whole, and the spirits of my old acquiantances will be after us as well."

Soon the necromancer presented his plan to Soot as well. In desperation the young man agreed to add his meager arcane understanding to that of the ancient, though greatly weakened, necromancer. Together they, and the ghosts of Jock and Brutus, one of whose cooperation was more voluntary than the other, prepared for a final defense as they felt even the final spark of life in the village down below get snuffed out. The necromancer's tower was after all filled with a great deal of power, even after a part of it had leaked out to cause this disaster in the first place.

As Xardob and Adaham, and the old spirits possessing those bodies, came face to face there, their encounter was strangely tinged with nostalgia. The memories of the two villagers that they'd also seized, and the friendship between them, mixed with hatred from centuries past, and memories even older. The vengeful spirits finally discovered their true enemy, one that they'd thought long gone, but who had in truth hid in the very same tower that he'd trapped them in for the past centuries.

By the end of the confrontation the necromancer and his newfound allies were driven back inside the tower, as the power of the ghosts proved yet too feeble even with the diminished light of the day, and the vengeful spirits finally seized the village fully. As a last act of desperation, the necromancer repeated the very same magics that had left him sealed in the tower last time, resigning himself and the others with him to centuries of imprisonment. He was patient after all, and saw no reason that he shouldn't have yet another chance in the future, once his tower once again crossed into the realm of the living. The rest of the village meanwhile was lost in the realm of the dead, the ghosts of the innocent villagers slowly scattering and the vengeful spirits finally finding the freedom they'd looked for.



The Vengeful Spirits are victorious. Congratulations to Xardob, Hamlet and Crassius.


Sorry guys, that took rather long. I forgot I had an RP session today, which dragged on. Should probably just have left it and finished tomorrow. As it is, the final narration is a lot less grand than I'd planned, but I'm too tired to care.

I actually only updated that just now, thanks for the reminder. There's always one in the narration posts as well.

Anyway, since I'll be busy around the deadline, I won't be too strict with it - though if all the orders are in a few hours before, I'll try to get the narration out on time.

Hearing of their impending doom, the villagers launched into fierce discussion, but soon enough everyone had exhausted themselves with bickering, arriving at an impasse once again. After hours of mostly silence however, another man who professed his innocence, Dago, agreed to be lynched, and the village fell into confusion. Had they managed to catch one of the vengeful spirits in such a baffling way, or were they now yet one step closer to doom and hoping to be saved by the ghosts of their fellow villagers?



It is now Night 4. No, the game is not yet over. PM me your night actions.

With six ghosts in play, and the game nearing its conclusion, hopefully we'll see some real action tonight! And don't forget the thread either, the game's balanced around the idea of the dead adding their takes to the discussion.

Deadline:
July 26, 6:00 pm GMT
Countdown



Next time I host I think I'm going to forbid self votes.

Adaham said:

SootShade said:

Maybe we should start the game at LyLo, if it gets discussion going this well.

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I was actually once thinking about such a setup, sort of as a quick fix, possibly even in a tournament format. The only thing I could never figure out, was how people would go about making decisions without any prior interaction. If anybody has an idea, that'd be cool. I'm envisioning something along the lines of a daily chess challenge. That could be fun.

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Maybe add a couple of specials that can act during the day to gain information? Would have to be pretty specific to work for the scenario.

Or you could start with a night phase, just arrange the first day to start at LyLo. Slightly more information, maybe easier to work in specials.

Votecount:
Dago: 2 - Moose, Crassius
Crassius: 1 - Dago
Adaham: 1 - Hamlet

Not voting: Adaham, Vieira, Xardob



Maybe we should start the game at LyLo, if it gets discussion going this well.

On another note, I do hope that the PM incident, as something unrelated the game, doesn't get brought up too much more.

The morning came again. Sort of. The sun was out, but appeared distant and as though covered by a veil, even as there were no clouds, so there was still a purplish gloom over the village. The remaining villagers emerged from their homes, now looking almost as gaunt as their recently dead fellows. Lethargy worse than could be caused any lack of sleep was shown by their tired movements. No one seemed to be in much of a mood to talk even as they gathered together again. Looking around, they found that Hawk wasn't there, and upon inspecting the man's home they predictably found his body drained of the energies of life, just like Archer and Jock had been when they were found. It seemed that the care he took in speaking his mind had not spared him the attention of the vengeful spirits.

In a procession that had become all too familiar over the past days, the rest of the dwindling village gathered to bury, and offer hollow prayers for, Hawk. Soot waited by until the ritual was completed, though he had no words to offer for as long as it took. He seemed a bit better off than most of the villagers, whether it was his youth or some of his more esoteric means that had protected him, but the tired look on his face was the same as the others. As the others had finished laying Hawk to his unfortunately temporary rest, Soot waved his hand to have them gather and follow. At least he wanted to be a bit farther away from the line of fresh graves before delivering more grim news.

"I'm sure that you've all felt it already. This place has shifted dangerously close to the realm of the dead, and should its energies fully manifest our mortal bodies will not be able to bear it. Should you fail to strike down one of the Vengeful Spirits today, I'm afraid that this whole place will be swallowed into the realm of the dead before the sun can rise tomorrow, barring a fortuitous intervention by the ghosts of the recently departed", Soot explained grimly, "I hope that those among you that still hold attachments to that realm living will do your utmost at this time. Time is against us, and a single misstep might lead to us never finding our way back there again."

Thus the living villagers, who knew well that their numbers were not even as many as the seven that still appeared to remain, prepared for yet another day of desperate struggle. Soot withdrew to prepare whatever rituals that he could still hope to have an effect. The Vengeful Spirits were gleeful at the whiff of their impending victory, but knew that they could not yet become careless. And the ghosts of the dead watched on as all of this came to pass, as the veil that kept them from interfering frayed ever further.



It is now Day 3, there are seven alive and four votes are required to lynch.

Deadline:
July 24, 6:00 pm GMT
Countdown

Yeah, next day will be shorter.