Tamerlan said:Chel I think there is something wrong with lords. Just killed Lord Nelag in battle and got 101461360 experience which pumped me from level 27 to level 59 instantly. Dont think it was intended.
Jheral said:I don't disagree with you. The reason I suggested they be made a seperate tree is that I wanted to make a distinction between regular and irregular soldiers, though I suppose one could just as well make an extended troop tree to cover both. That would be better, actually.Nahadiel said:Completely agree with you but not at the Men-at-arms. As you say, men-at-arms where "professional" soldiers that "worked" for a Lord, their guard, the core of his troops. And its expected their numbers increased during war times. But those men came from the villages as well as the militia. The difference is that they were trained veterans and well equiped instead of being recruited as cannon-fodder. So I'd keep the Sparehawk's troop tree and see the heavy infantry and horsemen (upgraded from militia) as the Men-at-arms. The Lord provides the equipment.
Jheral said:The current mercenary troop tree is too small, in my opinion. There isn't enough diversity. As I see it, the mercenary troop tree should be the biggest of all, covering just about all troop types, but requiring a lot more money to recruit and maintain, compared to the troops belonging to the different factions.Nahadiel said:I'd keep the current mercenary tree that mixes mounted and melee. If I where a mercenary I'd buy a horse as soon as I could or rob it after the battle.
Jheral said:More variety in weapons would be good, yes. At the moment I get the feeling that the Northmen are just renamed Nords (which I suppose is very possible). Bows are another thing entirely, though. I seem to recall that bows were used just about everywhere(which they would be. Archery is not only for combat, you know, and hunters are likely to be everywhere, so it's a convenient skill to have. ). I got the impression that crossbows weren't all that common in the seven kingdoms.Nahadiel said:-I'd leave bowmen to Dorne, North and Stormlands, ginving crossbows to the rest. Thrown weapons for Ironmen, some Dornish and Swamp/Marsh-people (or wathever they are called in English since there is a party leaded by Howland Reed).
Jheral said:It would certainly need balancing, but it's certainly a step in the right direction.
I would make a clearer distinction between the lowborn and highborn (so to speak).
Peasant militia, which would be the troops you recruit from villages, should never really become that powerful. Swords, chain mail etc would be very expensive, much more than your usual farmer would be able to afford, and as such, shouldn't really appear that often among them(much less plate armour).
Perhaps something like this (for the 'main' troops. Dorne, the Iron Isles, and in some ways the North, might have slightly different structures):
3-5 Tiers in each, with the top tier of one being compareable to the 2nd or 3rd of the next in level, stats, etc.
- Peasant Militia - Conscripts, levies, guardsmen, etc... Lightly armed and armoured, and with little training, compared to the others. No plate, very little chain, mostly armed with spears, crossbows, bows, few swords, etc... Mostly light infantry and archers, but could include some light cavalry as well.
- Men-at-Arms - 'Professional' Soldiers. Better training, arms and armour. For armour, mostly chain, maybe some plate for the heavier troops. Made up mostly of heavier infantry and some cavalry.
- Knights - (For lack of a better word.)Squires, knights etc. These would be the best in terms of both training and equipment. A mixture of heavy chain mail and plate armour, but mostly mounted troops, unlike the men-at-arms tree.
shevchenko65 said:IDK man-at-arms sort of seem like mercenary troops to me. They are professional soldiers, like mercenary's, who basicly go from war to war.
Sparehawk said:About troops' trees...
After reading all posts, I'm thinking, that there should be 3 main categories:
- Lowborn militia - could be hired in villages, cheap, bad armor and combat skills even at higher upgrade levels. Have several troops' trees, depending on region (Basic, Dorne, North, Iron Isles)
- Mercenaries - could be hired in taverns, quite expensive, good armor and combat skills. Have several troops' trees, depending on profession (Melee, Ranged, Mounted). Maybe, Brave Companions mechanics could be used here instead of original upgrade mechanics. Or, maybe, Companions could be just another additional tree.
- Warriors of oath - professional soldiers and nobility. Could be hired only from prisoners and in player's own castles/cities. Not so expensive as mercenaries, almost as good in combat as them. Maybe a bit better, but not much. No upgrade trees at all or very small (no more then 2-3 positions) ones.
ser Jeekim said:I registered just to say that this mod is terrific. I've been totally hooked to Song of Ice and Fire since I first laid my hands on it, and this game is just perfect for a Westeros-themed mod!
Triple hurrah to Sparehawk!
I'll try to give some constructive input also
5) If possible, Lannister army should be made mercenary-heavy somehow. I also support idea that mercenaries remain a separate troop tree, expensive and hireable from taverns.
Or maybe give two distinct upgrades from Horsemen: Lancers and Veteran Horse Archers? Also, please don't take out Dornish Sergeants and Master Sergeants These are my favourite troops!
Now this may be misplaced, but I could use some help also... I've developed my character all the way to level 30, having learned only personal battle skills, STR and AGI, with a focus on two-handed and polearms. Hard fighting on tourneys has got me around 2000 renown, so my party size is 96 right now. However, with no Leadership skill whatsoever, morale is becoming a problem and I won't dare to attack those ridiculously heavily defended (250+ men) castles, as I play without reloads. Any advice?
... and I do not even imagine, how is a city with 800 men supposed to be taken! Or is it not?
Jheral said:shevchenko65 said:Since the Brave Companions were a pretty foul and reputably the worst of all mercenary companies, do you think we could rename them to something else?
I've been thinking about that, too, but I can't really come up with an alternative. I suppose one could just make all mercenaries that way (customizable equipment, jacks-of-all-trades in terms of skill(perhaps with some branches of the troop tree specializing more) etc...), and just call them mercenaries.
monsterfurby said:Hm, I have to disagree here. Mind you, Renly Baratheon, the Tyrell Family's supported King, is currently part of the Baratheon faction. He really needs to be put into the Tyrell Faction.shevchenko65 said:I think Highgarden and Lannisters should be allied fighting Barantheon.
That would be great, but actually the North led the offensive campaign in ASOS. It was Robb's army advancing past the Neck, not the Lannisters, so I believe the North and House Lannister should be the most aggressive, with the other factions taking the back seat to their struggle.And different factions should have different personalities. Like Lannisters and Tyrells and Ironmen should focus on taking castles, Dorne and North only on defending their territory.
I know you have some planned events to occur on the todo list, maybe you should add more events. Like the Frey/Bolton betrayal of the Starks, Tywin and Joff dying and Tyrion leaving.
I second this!
shevchenko65 said:Starks had raids in the west, but I don't think in the game sense they should try to capture castles, only to hit and run. Plus I think, the North especially, should try to do a better job defending their own villages from bandits/greyjoys. Always pissed me off to see lords in castles sitting doing nothing as the raiding parties came right up to towns chasing me.
SirSlack said:Just wanted to stop by and thank you for a great mod so far. Really has made me interested in Mount and Blade again.
Do you think it would be possible to implement this mod in as well?
Or at least the best part of it which is variety of course when choosing a personal crest/House crest and having Man at Arms that wear the same. Just something I thought which would add to the immersion.
Sorry for the misspelling. I read the books in Spanish in wich The Vale is called "El Valle", literally meaning The Valley, and wildfire as "Fuego Valyrio" whose direct translation is Valyrian fire. Didnt know they werent a direct translation. You see, KingsLanding is written as "Desembarco del Rey" wich literally means... KingsLanding.Dryvus said:
Dryvus said:Nahadiel said:Sparehawk said:BTW, any ideas what troops should have Arryns?
There seemed to be a lot of knights in the Valley when Tyrion, Catelyn and Sansa arrived there. I also have the RPG d20 system (I hate d20 ) of Game of Thrones in which R.Martin is supposed to have done some revision for the background and it says the Valley is full of knights and proud minor noble families eager to provide more famous knights.
So, IMO heavy cavalry (as Valley knights) would fit, but also they could be on-foot knights making a heavy infantry (Gate defenders or whatever). On the other side, you could add infantry skirmishers as mountaineers. I'd also give the Valley a couple of wildlings spawning points to create a problem like the Greyjoys. The only references about their weapon preferences are on the Bronn's duel (complete armor, heavy longsword like a bastard one, and big shield) and the Lords meeting that Littlefinger arranges.
Their troop composition wouldn't really be any different than the typical Western Europe-based medieval army common throughout Westeros. Knights, light cavalry, infantry, and ranged troops on foot. Dorne and the Iron Islands are the only places whose military really stands out as different.
shevchenko65 said:From my reading of the book, it seems that infantry isn't a really developed force in Westernos. It seems that most infantry is made up of either archers and crossbowmen, or spearman infantry. The elite troops would be the knights, and they are equiped with both lances and swords. So I think for everyone except Dorne more ephasis should be put on cavalry than on infantry, and infatry shouldn't upgrade further than vetern footmen or something like that.
Yes, I meant the Brave Companions, didn't remember the actual name. They can have a wide variety of bows, thrown weapons, horses and armor.Jheral said:I assume you mean the Brave Companions? The troops that you can design however you want? I suppose it could do well enough for this.
Yes, I read KL somewhere at the forum and seemed right for me . If it is possible to add new kinds of parties to the list a modder should be able to do this by adding Tully parties to the list, attaching their Lords to Stark faction, giving them a behaviour and bonding those Tully units to riverland villages. More difficult would be to name them as "Tully army/castle/village" as they are supposed to be in the same faction. Maybe could call them all (Tully&Stark) "The King on The North" faction (as called in the books)?Nahadiel said:I think this could be done keeping Riverrrun, The Twins, etc. in the Stark faction, but giving his parties and villages a different troop tree. In fact, the Tully give an oath and became vassals of Robb Stark. This could be an interesting way to manage troop trees and conquests. If you conquer a village from the north, it's still a northerns' village, so it should provide northern recruits, not your faction ones.
I was considering something like this, as well, but I didn't know if it would be possible or not (my modding skills are just about non-existant). It would be a good way to do it, if possible. Regarding King's Landing (assuming that's what you meant by KL) and surroundings, I have no idea, tbh. What is it at the moment, Stormlands?Jheral said:I think this is a good way to reproduce the different loyalties of the Riverland Lords. This way Riverrun and The Twins would provide Riverland recruits to Stark's faction while Harrenhal does it for the Lannisters. The problem would be to decide which troop tree KL (and his surrounding villages) belongs to.
Sparehawk said:BTW, any ideas what troops should have Arryns?
Sparehawk said:I'm not as good in balancing, as in scripting.Nahadiel said:---Dorne and Highgarden:
-Dorne is sopposed to be known for their hit&run tactics, their horsearchers and lancers in light armor. I was surprised when I saw those crossbowman and helms needing 16 strength. Meanwhile, Highgarden in the novels has the heaviest cavalry while Lannisters have the numbers (spending money in sellswords) but Tyrell's knights have 0 Strike power and Lion/Kingswards are the really tankish cavalry.
If I'll post here combined tables of all kingdom's troops, could you help me to tweak them?
Jheral said:Yes, they should definately leave villagers alone. However, I'm not sure I agree with them not having upgraded soldiers. I mean, sure, they're sort of like bandits, and they're weren't exactly an army, but according to the books it would appear as if they were quite a threat. True, they relied mostly on ambushes and raids, but even then you'd still need some strength, no? I fail to see how low-tier troops only can do much of anything against the caravans/armies of the factions.
On the subject of the fire swords, did they use them all the time, or was that just for things like the Hound's trial by combat? I know Thoros used one in tourneys and the like, but it seems a bit impractical, not to mention a waste to do it in every battle, what with the swords themselves being ruined. I think Thoros used wildfire during the Hand's Tourney in A Game of thrones, but I seem to remember the sword used by Beric against the Hound was like real fire(personally I'd go for real fire for the swords, if at all. Just because you can use something, doesn't mean it's always practical to do so, and I doubt they had enough resources to justify throwing away swords for no real reason.).
Jheral said:I can agree with the Tullys being separated from the Starks, but as they were close allies through the entire war, I think it would be better to keep them as one.Sparehawk said: