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  1. SissiJaeger

    The Noble Longbow

    Issue with that video as follows.

    Using regular arrow heads, and that bow you can clearly see from the footage has no were near the power to be an effective weapon at 350 yards, which the yew longbows were.

    So they've basically done a test, come to a conclusion, using the wrong equipment lol
    Now i think you must be trolling. No other way you can be this stupid.
    The bow is historically accurate yew warbow with over the average poundage of english longbow. They use historically accurate points. They use 100% repro copy of the armor and shoot at close range.

    Also :^) english longbow did not reach over 315m which is the longest shot made with longbow in history.
  2. SissiJaeger

    The Noble Longbow

    They did though lol
    You cant be this slow?


    And this is just of the MANY
  3. SissiJaeger

    The Noble Longbow

    The battle of Agincourt were the longbow showed, crossbows and plate armour don't stand a chance, as they absolutely slaughtered an entire generation/s of French Nobility, were indeed welded but a huge majority of Welsh longbowman.
    LOL bows and crossbows dont do horses sht against plate. The only effect it has is that armored opponent needs to cover the visor every time volley is fired and maybe some gaps if the armor has some. But man they cant pierce the plate. And the only reason french lost that battle was their arrogance and lack of any thought in strategy.
  4. SissiJaeger

    The Noble Longbow

    Stratigo hats off to you made good points.
  5. SissiJaeger

    The Noble Longbow

    Mongols were also shooting arrows at armors roughly 150 to 200 years earlier than the famous longbow verse plate armor debate that never goes away (funny though that the normans in chain could conquer the welsh using longbows, but I guess the longbow only became the heat seeking missile some longbow fans assume it is in the hands of a proper englishman). But, suffice to say, I don't thing mongol bows would fair any better against plate armor than a longbow.
    This Is true. No crossbow or bow could penetrate full plate armor at any give distance. Only luck would be hitting visor or gaps.
    But my arguments were never about this.
  6. SissiJaeger

    The Noble Longbow

    Longbow French used was indeed the same as English longbow. And it was exactly the same as everybody else's longbow. Mongols and Manchu used essentially the same bows, some different details notwithstanding.
    Well I didnt know about the french longbows etc. But claiming that mongol and manchu are the same and had the same poundage etc is just bull.
    You havent proven anything at all.
  7. SissiJaeger

    The Noble Longbow

    No way in hell were 166lb composite bows standard issue. 100-120lb is believable, but I wonder if you could get the full power out of those bows on horseback. The Fe Doro Manchu Archery guys cite a lot of figures from China in a period where composite bows were widely used by the military: http://www.manchuarchery.org/historical-draw-weights-qing-bows

    "A 1736 report found that of 3,200 troops at the Hangzhou garrison about 2,200 were able to draw bows of strengths six to ten [80-133], and 80 could handle bow strengths of eleven to thirteen [147-173 pounds]… …In comparison, the 500 troops at the small Dezhou garrison acquitted themselves with honor, all of them being able to take a five-strength bow [67 pounds], 203 a six-strength [80 pounds], 137 a seven strength [93 pounds], and 85 a ten-strength bow [133 pounds]."​

    There's a world of difference between an 80lb and a 133lb bow, but the fact that only 80/3200 could handle bows at 147lb or above seems to imply that most of those 2200 were shooting closer to 80lb. I think somewhere on that website they bring up the subject of mounted archery, but I can't find it now. IIRC you couldn't expect the full power of even an 80lb bow on horseback.

    Now, 80lb was the minimum for a Manchu warbow, and modern replicas at that draw weight can put out 134 joules (comparable to a 160lb English longbow). But this cannot be extended to other composite bows, because Manchu bows had a unique design, with especially large and heavy "horns" at the end of the bow that contribute a lot to energy transfer. Other composite bows would likely still outperform longbows significantly pound for pound, but I haven't seen any tests or figures for modern reproductions.

    About that Swiss crossbow... did any army in human history use bows like that those en masse on the battlefield? They're man portable, but I doubt a single soldier could use one of those effectively on his own. It's not a comparable weapon to a longbow or single-man crossbow.
    CHINA and MONGOLIA are different cultures and countries. Manchu bow is not mongol bow. Mongol bows are mainly 2 types earlier mongol composite bow and yuan bow. Thats like claming that longbow types french used were the same as the english one.

    "I think somewhere on that website they bring up the subject of mounted archery, but I can't find it now. IIRC you couldn't expect the full power of even an 80lb bow on horseback." Thats like saying somewehre in internet someone clamied something. Also your links are studies for 1700 century china which is not even near the time of mongols.

    My sources are from mongolian history and universities.(the reddit one is just path to one link)
  8. SissiJaeger

    The Noble Longbow

    As you can see in my post, I stated a recurve bow of comparable size as a longbow would far out perform it. But they weren't made for this purpose. Can we give each modern infantryman a light machine gun? Sure we can, but the main purpose we want for those troops is mobility and ease of use. So prior to tackling the statement I have to state the following for clarification:

    -=-=-= In your statement are you referring to a recurve bow that HAS the power of a 100-120lbs single piece warbow? Or are you claiming that the recurve bow was of 100-120lbs poundage? A recurve bow of 80 lbs of poundage HAS the potential energy of a 100+lbs war bow. Not only that, it can be shot consistently.

    A recurve bow a massive 120lbs translate into far greater power, and this is far far more difficult to shoot consistently on horseback.

    IF the statement you made was alluding to the former (comparable transferable energy), then we are agreeing and I dont really know what you are disagreeing on me about.

    IF the statement was in relation to the latter idea then I dare say it isn't accurate. Bare with me and I can explain. I recall the paper " Buried with his bow and arrows: The exceptional cave burial of a 14th century". Mongolian Warbows were most often found in the 100lbs potential range, you could find some in the 120lbs. But mostly, 100lbs or below. Potential to store energy, and actual draw weight are two different things. Again, a well made and oiled up recurve bow of 80lbs of draw weight, has the energy on release as a warbow considerably bigger than itself.

    But given their main goal wasn't stopping power, but mobility. Anything larger than 100lbs on horseback would become less simple to use. Again, that isn't to say larger bows couldn't be used. I can't remember the source, but I can agree with you as much as saying that riders did carry secondary bows of far greater power and size, if they had to shoot dismounted. Honestly though I don't recall this piece of detail.

    Moving on though, as any archer can varify, at some point you need your body firmly planted on the ground to draw the string if the warbow gets too large, if you wish to capitalize on the bow's qualities. using a 120lb bow on horseback serves no purpose if you half pull and release a few dozen arrows. Poundage exceed 120lbs would then require , on horseback, a single arm without much use of back muscle, stable ground where your feet are planted and forward arm can be locked to draw 120lbs consistently and quickly. Thus, we can assume this wasn't anywhere common.

    Finally though, how can we make this assumption? Poundage of merely 100lbs or above, throughout a shooters lifespan deforms the joints of the stabilizing arm. Producing an obvious enlarged larger bones. These warbows used in the west were simple warbows, made of one piece of material. So their potential energy and draw weight are comparable.

    Deformation such as those found in Europe, are not found very commonly on Asian soldiers. This fact alone tells us the average soldier in Asia did not shoot anything closely resembling a 100lb bow. Regardless of assumptions or competitions (which do not have the same toll on the body and a nation's logistical system to wage war) we can conclude that asian warbows were not closed to 100lbs+ draw weight, as their bodies of the same species as their European cousins, did not suffer/enjoy of enlargement/deformations of their stabilizing arm.


    !!! Can their bows hit far, yes. Were their arrows lighter? Yes, Were their arrows standardize, no; many were self made or scavenged. But their objective wasn't to have a cannon on horseback, their main tactic was feinting and attack from far closer range.
    i.e: can I shoot a handgun over 200 yards...technically yes, but that isn't what is designed to do.

    !!! I have never in all of my years, heard of a recurve bow on horse back exceeding 120lbs for a rider as standard military practice.This one I am legitimately curious about, more about its design and training regiment.As I have explained above the mere basis of biological markers found in European bowman when using warbows that exceeded 100lbs-120lbs demonstrates Asian bowman did not use the same poundage, nowhere near close. So if you have that info, please let me eat it up. After all this is my bread and butter.

    Mongolian bows had heavy war arrows which they could shoot at longer distances than longbow.
    Mongolian warbows were almost as heavy poundage as longbows. They had average draw weight of 120lb. https://books.google.nl/books?id=JtOqIc9t2qsC&pg=PP14&lpg=PP14&dq=historical+mongol+166+pounds&source=bl&ots=gucLIbp0tq&sig=3x2QvenOSU_2-Fg9o157GShQhgg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nCHqUpXEK6XT0QXblYCYCw#v=onepage&q=166 pounds&f=false

    Also the arrows they used could penetrate armor on distance.

    English longbow werent the most efficient, powerfull and did not have the longest shooting distance. I dont know why british or longbowfans cant understand this. They used warbows with war arrows while shooting in distance. http://www.atarn.org/mongolian/mongol_1.htm

    Mongols could have not conquered the largest empire in the world if the mongol/yuan bows would not have been able to pierce armor.
    Also composite bow is way different in draw than longbow(I shoot traditional bows myself).

    I have my proof here.
    Do you have any proof or are you just making assumptions?
  9. SissiJaeger

    The Noble Longbow

    Yep. You are right.
    Bit in the game cavalry bow, that is better then longbow, will be kinda OP.
    Well mongol composite bows and yuan dynasty era bows were superior compared to longbow.
  10. SissiJaeger

    The Noble Longbow

    So vanilla values are highly inaccurate. If this game was as easy to mod as Stellaris, I'd have made a realistic mod already putting my decade as a professor into the mod. So to save you a wall of text.

    Yes it is powerful beyond belief.
    Balance wise,up to each to decide so I will not touch the very subjective field of should they be A or B.

    Historically, Recurve bows are more efficient than long bows. They are commonly known to have less range, and power only because they were made with the purpose of mounted cavalry mobility and weight in mind.
    But, and it was well within the capacity of asian nations and tribes, if you make a recurve bow the size of a warbow, it would roughly be 10-20% more powerful while having far less difficulty in using it.

    i.e: an 80lbs recurve bow has the power of a 100-120lb warbow. The former is much easier to shoot, believe me they are beautiful. Like comparing german made HK handgun to a Glock.
    WOOP WOOP
    Hold your horses there good sir!

    Mongolian composite bows have historically shot over 500m and hit a target. And also the warbows mongols used were around 100-157lb depending on the actual bow and user.
    :smile:
  11. SissiJaeger

    Siegetowers... again.

    I tested catapults.

    Really i cant understand why you even need them. It throwed few bolders above walls that did absolutely nothing.
    Lol I just used catapults too but I got like 3 times over 10 kills.
  12. SissiJaeger

    Siegetowers... again.

    Another info:
    There is no improvement in siege ai. When my battering ram was destroyed all infantry left the siege tower after pushing it to the wall and now they all indle and try to go up the 2 ladders against the wall.
  13. SissiJaeger

    Siegetowers... again.

    Yeah just tested with full of joy I went into a siege and built siegetowers to see their might aaand... I was lucky if even 1 of the ladders would be used.
  14. SissiJaeger

    The Noble Longbow

    The upside of crossbows in medieval time was that you could give crossbow to any peasant and tell them to point and shoot and they could learn it fast and easy. The crossbows were inferior to normal longbows and composite bows in range and accuracy.
  15. SissiJaeger

    Beta Branch Patch Notes e1.2.0

    Siegetowers are not working... Just sieged a city and still they use 1 ladder if they use ladders on towers at all.
  16. SissiJaeger

    Bows are WAY too accurate.

    Bows are like modern snipers. It's so boring. If you wanna win, go 100 bowman. BOOM! Congrats you won! No need to move your character….

    Before I even tell the rest of the army to move, the fight is over with even 30% bowman… pew, pew, pew, pew, pew, victory!

    FIX THIS AND NOT NERF THE INCOME EVERY PATCH! FOCUS ON MORE INPORTANT STUFF PLEASE!
    They need to update how the ai uses their shields and how the ai lords deal with archers.
    Im done on this post I have proven my point and stated the evidence. There are links to historical stuff earlier on.
  17. SissiJaeger

    Bows are WAY too accurate.

    Yes I might have overstated on the asian bow part but it is proven and reocorded that they shot greater speeds, greater distances and better effectiveness compared to longbow. So what we can take from that is their speeds are greater than the longbows from the tests.
  18. SissiJaeger

    Bows are WAY too accurate.

    Eastern composite bows have way longer powerstroke so add that into you calcs too.
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