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adrakken 说:

Nothing is going to change, because consumers are not going to change.

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It's trickier than you think.

Consumers do change, not because they revolutionise themselves at some point, but simply because a new generation emerge with people becoming old enough to be considered as main consumers.

I'm slowing heading to my late 30's, I grew up owning a SNES, a Playstation 1 and 2, I remember using CD and even floppy disks (yes !) to enjoy PC games.

My favorite games were Another World, Secret of Evermore, Metroïd, Tekken 3, Street Fighter Alpha, Ridge Racer Type 4, Final Fantasy 7, Metal Gear Solid, also Baldur's Gate 1, Age of Empire III, Civilzation Call to Power, World of Warcraft, Counter Strikes (when my internet connexion was actually working...) and SO many more.

I'm pretty sure this can sound very boomer-ish for Fortnite or Word of Warcraft (retail version) gamers. Couldn't care less, I genuinely feel blessed.

I guess the main difference between what I could call "my generation" and the actual one (even the next ones ?) is the fact I've been bottle-fed with finished games to enjoy with siblings and friends on a sofa.

I've seen the rise of connected consoles and platforms where you had to create an account and log in, in order to play a game, with online achievements and new fancy stuff. And I have also seen the decay of physical version of games in favor virtual ones to download, until it turned into a norm and updates became mandatory.

And slowly, a whole new population arrived, knowing only things like Steam, Playstation 3 and 4 (even 5 ?), microtransactions, pre-orders, unfinished games endlessly updated and so on.

So yeah, you are right, "consumers are not going to change", but it's just because they are part of a generation that doesn't know any other way to appreciate video games, as mine as its own marks.

Ironicaly, my generation also has a big responsability in all of this since there are good chances many current games are developped by people from...my generation.

From my POV the game industry obviously shapes consumers. I'm not missing proper finished games because I'm some kind of maniac, but because things used to be like that for most of my childhood.

I suppose the responsability of developpers, editors or whatever isn't to release good/finished games only, but also to "educate" (don't like this word, but didn't find a better alternative at the moment, sorry for this) the generations to come by giving them not just what they are willing to give them, but the best they can give them. Good planning and less greed might be a good start.

Yes, I'm 100% aware of the naivety of this statement, no need to remind it.

And for what it worth, since I'm the OP here, I also came back to say that I value discussions, debates and interesting ideas, rather than another "oh you HATER" GIF. Just saying...

Cheers

I forgot to reply but thank you !

Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James 说:

People are seemingly using Baldur's Gate 3 to vent their frustration about other games coming out now, which are mostly just scams. To me it looks boring as hell, turn based squad combat is probably the dullest thing i can imagine building an entire game around, it reminds me of Xcom 3 which people also praised relentlessly at the time despite it being seen as kind of mediocre now.

If Baldur's Gate 3 had come out in say 2018 amongst actual competition nobody would be gushing over it like they are. But its been released alongside such gamer classics as diablo IV with its insane battlepass ****e, and blizzard outright deleting overwatch 1. Gaymers are generally quite mad right now.

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I wrote the OP and yes I use "Baldur's Gate 3 to vent my frustrations about others games coming out now" (and the ones that have already been released btw), but also toward studios/editors and a whole generation of devs that keep the video game industry where undelivery/dlc/gamepass/micro-transactions is a norm.

So what ?

Today players are taking this release to say that this has to stop, tomorow it might be through another game or a particular event.

For the record, turn-based combat systems aren't my cup of tea. I'm not a big fan of the characters design (not that I find it ugly, I just don't like it). And I can't stand generic fantasy universes with elves/demons/blablabla anymore. I played BG1 and BG2 when I was younger, still have the boxes somewhere. But my thoughts about BG3, as well as yours, are totally irrelevant.

The fact Baldur's Gate 3 is a finished game, without petty DLC or any other way to make players pay again despite they bought the game, that the studio truly listens and communicates with its community is simply an anomaly in today standards. And it shouldn't be.

That, is the point.

What Larian has done is reminding everyone this was a norm decades ago. We simply forgot it, drowned by what industry greedy/bad/poor-planned decisions provided us for years and probably as well because a new generation of players never experienced anything else than this.

Don't take us has beta testers or cash cows, finish your games, plan your stuff better and respect your community.

Earth Dragon 说:

People were asking for Mesoamericans, Elves, plate mail, firearms, unlimited companions (even though companions are a HUGE favoritism to the player as is), pidgeon cell phones, more suggestions then I can count that would shatter what economy is there……you have to shift through a lot crap.

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Of course if you start pointing elves and firearms demands for Bannerlord we can safely say devs should never listen to players suggestions.

In the other hands, I've seen more serious propositions, led by common sens this time, about diplomacy, politic, dynasty management or economy features. And I do believe TW completely underestimated (and underworked) these aspects of the game.

Let's take an example of politic/dynasty missing features:

Relationships between all members of the dynasties we patiently build are set to the bare minimum. Basically there is a trait system and...that's about it !

When your main dies and you got to choose a new heir well...this doesn't bother anyone in the game. No jealousy from a sibling, distant cousin scheming a civil war, some rival taking the opportunity to seize power, etc. It's just like "oh, ok, we got a new heir, long live our new king/queen". (Sucession Law and Civil War)

I have SO MANY other examples.

But to be fair, I think some ideas like this should have come directly from the devs when they brainstormed, years ago. They were supposed to be clever enough to deliver the best game possible, because they are professionnals and we are not.

Once released, a game like this should only be plagued by weird elves/firearms demands from players, since every others serious spot has been officially filled. And we are far from that.

And another one, because why not ?

"when it comes for modern gaming (...) when you buy a game on the release there is a really good chance that you're buying a game to be a beta tester"

offconstantly 说:

Don’t lump TaleWorlds in with greedy devs who over monetize there games. At least Bannerlord has no in game purchases and is a „complete“ game. Baldurs gate is a new standard but Bannerlord is still a great game even with its issues. The reason I still ply Bannerlord is because it is not like most games these days that cram microtransactions down your throat.

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Rather than "greedy" they are more in the "poor planning" side of things, which isn't better for the players.

No, Bannerlord isn't a "complete" game.

Micro-transaction or DLC aren't the problem here.

The problem is that the game is unfinished, constantly updated and rely too much on modders to provide lacking features. And they sold it full price.

I simply don't agree with that and, I suppose, you shouldn't as well. (not saying the game is bad, but unfinished, not the same)

Turret0487 说:

waiting on the white knights to show up and proclaim:

" BUT OFFICIAL RELEAZ IS JUST A MAKRETING TERM !!11! NO ONE REALLY EXPECTZ A GAME TO BE FINISHED UPON RELEAZ !!1 "

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Claiming this would be a bad a signal sent to video games industry.

If players (us) want things to change, they also need to see the problems for what they are, stop lying to themselves, skirmishing/trolling each other for whatever reason and agreeing with the actuals models.

I don't mind a fix or two, but at the end of the day: official release = finished game, period.

anoddhermit 说:

BG3 is a sequel to a classic game by a successful RPG developer that was making good games in the same basic vein prior.

Name recognition, nostalgia, good reputation, no BS monetization, and not trying to copy and shoehorn every new fangled AAA feature into the game to keep up with the Joneses but focusing on what this kind of game should do best all went into BG3.

Bannerlord actually has a lot in common with it, the big differences being TW is like 1/4th the size of Larian's BG3 team, probably had less money thrown at them to make Bannerlord, and they were more indecisive about the direction of the game during development - which is also a more complicated game in some ways I would think - the turn based with pause formula is not very demanding compared to the kind of crazy stuff Bannerlord's mass real time combat involves.

So I don't really think there's that much for them to learn or that they deserve flak for not being Larian, which had the fortune of a variety of things converging in their favor when they were given a major IP to work on. Credit is certainly due to them for handling that opportunity better than most would, however.

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You might be correct about size, recognition and budget comparaison. But I don't think this is the right angle to see the problem.

Taleworlds took the decision to develop an ambitious game on their own, knowing how difficult it will be to handle that much work, also knowing they were going to trap players (and modders ?) in some endless updates timeloop for YEARS to come, aware their product will be unfinished and lacking basic features (we sure can make a list).

And knowing all that, they sold it around $50 from start, through a pre-release state and since the full (?) release they now keep making adverts about, sales or not. Adverts for an unfinished game, once again.

But wait, there is more. It's not like they didn't have prior experience. They made Warband and various iterations of it. They knew what it took to develop that kind of game. As far as I know, no one forced them for some even more ambitious sequel (or prequel ?), that will need more ressources, talents and management. They just thought it was ok to repeat the same process: release a delux template and update it for years, right under our nose.

So yeah, sorry, I don't think it's a matter of size, recognition and money only, but common sense and good planning.

It's probably safe to say today is still early for Taleworlds to release such a game as Mount & Blade: Bannerlord.

But they aren't the only one to blame here. There are a lot of studio/editors like them, whatever their ressources, names, size, budget, country. It's greediness or poor planning everywhere. Most of them have a sneaky or clumsy way to not deliver finished games for a reason or another. It's a whole generation of devs, studios, editors responsible of the actual state of video game industry. A state where players are the real losers.

You want to play Street Fighters ? Sure ! But you will end up with a basic game, then you gonna have to pay season pass for more characters, etc.

You want to play Stellaris ? Sure ! Do you also have money for DLC ?

You want to play Cyberpunk 2047 ? Sure ! But wait...the game needs serious updates.

[add your fav game here]

I remember a time when you bought a game and then...that was it, you had your game.

I do hope the next generation of devs will understand this and respect the players by releasing finished games. Whatever if it's AAA or not. Then we could consider that "the standards has been raised".

F

sh1ny4 说:

in your library under home you can check if tools are enabled
if they are go in the uncategorized category (you may need to disable the play button under home that filters only the softwares you have installed), you should see the modding kit among many other tools

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Found it thanks !

Hey, how do you guys download the modding kit from Steam ? I tried looking for it following instructions, but it's 2023 and it seems I can't find the "tools" checkbox.

babelfisch 说:

On the other hand it's perfectly fair to expect better considering all the money, time and manpower they put into it.
However, I am happy that Taleworlds still owns the license and not some other studio. Activision / Blizzard has all the manpower, talent, money and time in the world and Diablo 4 is still worse than Diablo 2. Which is just one example for the mismatch between current video games and people's expectations.

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Yes but it's like taking the worst example to accept what we currently have to deal with.

Blizzard is now a cash machine that has basically losts it soul over the years (because of Activision, as far as I know), they now release bad sequels, take bad decisions, their remakes attempts are laughable (oh hi "Warcraft III: Reforged"...) and bonus: their work environment is toxic. It's a mess.

In the other hand TalesWorld allows everyone to provide great ideas through modding, but they don't seem to know what are to prioritise, take ages making decisions, seem stuck in a "fixes updates" loophole, keep the community in a constant fog and despite all of this they consider their game completed enough for a proper release. And they sell it around $50. Another kind of mess.

Having expectations because a studio has money, manpower, talents, ideas or even some independance is fair, but it's is even more legitimate when you actually bought the game. We buy because the studios tell us it's worth it and we believe them.

And I'm not sure a bad sequel/remake from a billions dollar studio or a game that will still need updates 5 or 10 years after release from a indie (?) one is worth it.

Whatever Blizzard/Activision or TalesWorld, at the end of the day we end up with products that turns to be disappointing or unfinished (and usually expensive in both case). I suppose that makes us, the players, the real losers.

froggyluv 说:

Pepperidge Farm remembers

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Never tasted, but looks like very good cookies .

Albastı16 说:

I am not going to lie, I kinda got hyped up for this update too but the fact they only started to implement these stuff three years after the initial release tells a lot of things about the priorities and the vision that developers dedicated to this game. Which is unfortunately contradicting with my aspirations for this game (and most likely with yours too, given your first comment)

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You are absolutely right, couldn't agree more.

To be fair, I'm concerned by this weird trend that spreaded in video games industry, where releasing unfinished products (in purpose) seems to be an acceptable business model.

Studios just have to polish stuff for years, fixes after fixes, update after update, despite their games have been officialy released and sold at full price. It might be justified for a multiplayer product only, such an MMO, FPS and E-Sport stuff, but for solo games...really ?

Good thing they still "thanks" everyone for still being here, by eventually giving some free virtual token/medal/cosmetic/whatever from time to time.
That's great, I guess.

I remember an age, probably in an another life, where I bought completed games and played them. Nothing less, nothing more. Studios thought their game could have been better ? Well, they eventually learned from their mistakes, released a better sequel and so on. At this time, thinking about the future of video games was actually thrilling.

Fine fine, I'm starting to write complains again, bad habits, years of frustrations I suppose, sorry about that.

Ok, I'll say it loudly in order to convince myself:

"1.2.0 is a good omen and the indisputable proof of a glorious future for Bannerlord (but not in 10 years, isn't it ? Is it ?), amen"

Count_Morfetico 说:

But there is no denying that last update is a nice addition and a steer in the right direction.
Credit where credit is due.

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Indeed 1.2.0 is the best update we had for long time, hats off for this TW, they deserve it.

I just wish this is now the new cruise speed they are involved in, so we can expect having a proper game with more variety in the following months...and not in 10 years, because it would be so unfair for the players to wait over and over, many of us actually bought the game during early access. And it was already a long time ago.

Starlord 说:

I feel like the price of the game is justified. In this new generation of inflated game prices, it's nice to see a reasonably priced game. That said, mods add a ton of content that should have been present on final release.

Give this game as much time as Warband had to stew and I'm sure it will be a different game in another 4-5 yrs post release along with any DLC taleworlds will add. Everyone will say it shouldn't take so much time but this was kind of the same with Warband, took forever before taleworlds was finished with balancing and features, and then modders unleashed on it.

Can't justify the small updates which change nothing but break game for mods (although most mods that work with v1.1.x work with the newer updates for me but it can be tricky).

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Don't have anything to say about the price I paid, to me the early access was very promising and deserved my support.

And for what it's worth I rarely spend any gold on early access games, since many turns to be too bugged or disappointing at some point.

But this isn't EA anymore for Bannerlord. The game has been fully released and, once again, too little has been added to game since I first experienced it.

At least this is my (strong) feeling.

And according to many threads on this very forum, as well as on Reddit, various Nexus Mods and Steam comments walls it seems I'm not the only one.

I'd glady consider "giving this as much time as Warband" if the game wasn't actually in a full release state.

$49.99 is a reasonable price for a game indeed.

The thing is, reasonable turns into concerning when a full released game (dare I say a final product ?) lacks basics/obvious features, becomes dull and boring at mid-game, when all you get are mostly silents updates with barely new stuffs (and an endless list of fixes...that will also seems to be fixed again in the next updates) and most importantly: no communication from the studio about what to expect to properly answers to these issues.

As far as I know, I have no idea if TW is aware of all our concerns.

Are they reading this forum ? Do they know many modders brought importants features to their game ? Are they inspired by some of those mods or even similar games like Crusader Kings 3 for any future new contents ? Do they actually need more time to provide us new features and complete the existing ones (workshops level, diplomacy, etc) ? Will DLC be involved for those hypothetics new features ? What are they priorities ? Are they currently struggling with the game for some reasons ?

I believe these are legits questions that needs to be anwsered.

Sadly I have little doubt the only hints we can expect anytime soon are another lists of obscure fixes, maybe a couple of new armors, why not a cool new cut scene or some over-situational feature (like the Sally Out Battle...) that won't really add much depth to the game.

Did I paid $49.99 to be constantly in the dark, frustated with a game and stuck with vain assumptions threw all over Internet ? Nope.

Considering that once players (I'd rather say customers) bought the game they'll be ok to have an unfinished game for years, with little communication around, just because their previous release (Warband ?) has been set around that kind of weird pace...well sorry but I think it's dishonest and disrespectful.

And being an indie-game studio isn't an excuse. It's no secret game developpment can be tedious, costly and time consuming. But no one forced them to make an ambitious game on their own and sell it. People paid and showed support, now it's time to deliver your game, rather than a deluxe demo.

julijs 说:

the entirety of early access to post release shows that they haven't done any better, even bear minimum. as for why they can't do any better is up for any assumptions made here, consider yourself enlightened now.

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Many thanks, but to be fair it's hard to feel enlightened when I already know this story...

I bought the game before Christmas 2021, played a solid month and then stopped for a whole year.

When I came back in feb 2023 I was like "so it's officially the full release ? Early Access was already so good, hell yeah !".

Well...I just can't believe how heavily modded my game is now to keep me hooked.

Spectacular Knight 说:

This thread is just ridiculous.

Modders don't look for broken games just so that they can spend their free time "fixing things", they want games with excellent core mechanics that can be expanded upon and serve as a base for creativity.

Taleworlds isn't deliberately making a broken game in order to attract modders, they're just can't do any better. Modders are trying to salvage the game because the basic gameplay of riding around on a horse and killing things is so compelling.

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Yes indeed, so what ?

I remember saying that many modders create their own mods because they feel the game misses a lot features and has a serious lack of depth.

I also remember listing some examples of these mods, with links, as well as quoting some of the modders involved and the reasons why they made their mods (usually because the game is dull, AI stupid, etc).

This doesn't mean I believe the only purpose of modders is to "spend their free time fixing things" on "broken games" as if it was some kind of sick hobby (if this means anything).

As you said, for modders a game is good base for creativity, no doubt about that, 100% agreed.

But when, in April 2023, your workshops are still stuck at "level 1", the diplomacy features are still almost non-existent, your children keep looking like perfect clones and SO MANY others things...well some people get frustrated so they decide to bring new features and eventually "fix" the vanilla version.

But don't make me wrong, "fixing" things can also involve creativity and some modders are actually pretty good at this.

But I believe frustration is the number one motivation for modders.

Even the people behind Calradia At War, a very creative mod, are doing this because they wanted to bring something "more immersive" to the base game (be my guest and check the mod's page).

If you really want pure creativity, without any new feature added and fixed things, you can simply create new clans, new troops, new armors, even neko-cat ears if you are into kawaï stuff or whatever else.

"They're just can't do any better".

How do you know "they can't do any better" ? Do you work with them ? Someone told you maybe ? You saw something, somewhere, on Reddit or Youtube ? Are you talking on TW behalf or it's just your thoughts after all ? Wait..do you mean nobody is creative enough at TW ? Or maybe is just a matter of money (so it's poor planning then) ? Please enlight us.