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Have you done a Defrag lately?

I agree 100%. Although it should be noted that discussions on this are subject to us being banned so, we should all respect the Dev's request and cease discussing it.

sheek 说:

OK. I'm just tired of having 10-20 fps. If it's because of a copy-protection that doesn't need to be there (I've registered and paid) then it's annoying. It doesn't matter too much I'll just keep my texture detail at 50%. I won't be able to do the M&B 200% mod either.

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The copy-protection does need to be there, else people could decompile the code and write a crack after they purchased the license to use the software and release it to the Net. This protects the developers from loosing money, period. It is unfortunate that devs need to take these drastic steps to protect thier property but, realistically, humans will take the easy way out if given the chance to do so. This prevents that option.

When you "purchase" software you do not buy it, but instead by the license to use the game. You never, ever own the software..period.

When you crack it, decompile it or alter the base code in anyway you are breaking the law as you do not own the software. It remains the sole intellectual property of the developers.

So the arguement that you bought the game so you can alter it's base code or crack it is irrelevant.

PrinceScamp 说:

I get a new game, I learn how to play it, a few days later, I look up the cheats, and cheat like mad, as I am not actualy that good at most games. ......

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Of course, you will not get any better skill wise and continue to do poorly at games if you cheat.

BobG 说:

Don't despair, just enjoy the game. Updates from any game's devs are a gift, not a right.

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Normally, this is true, however since we purchased a Beta version of the game with updates promised upon purchase, it becomes my right to expect updates and no longer simply a privilage.

That said however, I will patiently wait for the next update. If however it takes several more months to complete, I will start to get as anxious as everyone else, definately.

Ok Lets break this down a little:

TomteOfDoom 说:

Mordraneth:

Stated facts says that at the time of the attack, Nobunaga only had his personal guard with him, which were hopelessly outnumbered by Mitsuhides force. So much for his paranoia, and this much for the supposed bribe of Mitsuhide:

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His paranoia was in relation to personal attacks made from Iga Ninja not from an army. This was the gambit Mitsuhide played on. Also, in addition to his personal samurai guard, it is rumored he had several dozen Koga posing as gate guards. His security was very tight. He screened every poet, artist, monk and the like on the castle grounds with great scrutiny.

TomteOfDoom 说:

He had plenty of personal reasons(mainly due to the incident in the siege of Yakami castle one might argue), popular support and own ambition to go through with the attack, without any ninja-bribes.

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Which makes him the ideal candidate no? Loss of respect for his lord, ambition, greed and unscrupulous ideals with power, prestige and an army to boot.

TomteOfDoom 说:

Besides, noone believed Oda was anything except himself, who believed he was a god.

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Legends say that Oda had been "struck down" a number of times in battle and always returned to "life". You must remember these were simple, superstious people. More likely he was grazed or his Yoroi took the brunt of the attacks and he survived.

TomteOfDoom 说:

Also, there was no Tokugawa shogunate at that time, and Akechi had no intentions of becoming a subordinate to one either. Clearly not, since he declared himself the new shogun once he got rid of Nobunaga, by which he became known as the "13 day shogun".

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Again, correct. However, the plans were long in the making. Ever hear of a double-cross? How likely is it that after he had taken Azuchi castle he decided to call himself Shogun? The Iga call this short time in thier history "The Great Betrayal", which alludes to what happened here. Fortunately Toyotomi Hideyoshi, another "General", quickly moved in and removed Mitsuhide and after the fall of Kyushu (1587) and Odawara (1590) he finally unified Japan. As you may also know, Tokugawa Ieyasu succeded Hideyoshi in 1598.
What you may not know is the Iga once escorted Tokugawa across hostile lands to his home in Mikawa in 1582. It is said that during this journey, plans were laid and strategies drawn on how to get a Shogun into power who was sympathetic to the Ninja.
It is surmised within the Iga that Tokugawa helped fuel Hideyoshi's ambitions and played him like a chess piece. Advising him to expell the Jesuits/Christians and to proceed with his planned conquest of China and Korea and planned to take the Shogunate after his shameful defeat, knowing it inevitable Hideyoshi would loose.
As you also likely know, Hideyoshi did infact loose, but was not killed and withdrew back to Japan, where he died that year and Tokugawa succeeded him as Shogun and the Ninja began to work for the Tokugawa Shogunate almost exclusively as spies, secret police and the like.
Seems like everything worked out for the Ninja and Tokugawa Ieyasu wouldn't you say?
How convienient

TomteOfDoom 说:

And no, I just can't stop when you keep writing stuff like this, it actually hurts me physically.

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Sorry to hear that *shrug*

I have noticed that you see only "black and white" and no "grey". It is interesting because I am offering you a view of what Iga history says and instead you denounce it because your books dont say such things so it must be fallacy.
Its like my previous example of my people, the Native Americans. The U.S. history books say we were savages, marauding thieves and the like, so it must be true! The books, written by the "victors" couldn't possibly be wrong! The verbal history handed down by the Native people must infact be a lie since is doen't correlate with what the history books say and infact opposes most of what is in the books themselves concerning thier people!
We all know Christopher Columbus found North America and obviously the Miqmac are wrong when thier history says that Vikings landed in what is now Labrador almost 450 years before Columbus! The books can't be wrong about that so the Natives must be! Those unearthed weapons and pottery from the Vikings must be fake!
Or in Japan in the time of the Samurai and Daimyos, the books tell of a time of great soldiers, with honor and integrity. Never mind that a Samurai could come to your home and ask (demand) shelter and food (the little you had after offering a tithe of almost 80% to your Daimyos coffers/stores) and if you looked him in the eyes, you were beaten and or killed. They could also demand to have your wife or daughter for "entertainment". Refusal usually met with a harsh demonstration of thier power and sometimes, in death. The books obviously must be right since it's the accepted history and the various villages where these stories are passed down to remember what life under the Samurai was really like must be wrong.



/sarcasm

You see where I am going with this? I also notice you did not respond to my previous post except to try and find the one weak spot you think you found, instead of responding to it in full. Can't argue what I said so instead you attack one paragraph instead and ignore the rest of the post. I take it then you do not contest what I said and since you did not counter, you must agree...

Corsair 说:

Mord, stop whining because Tomte is debating with you. Just because you can't hold an arguement doesn't mean he's doing anything wrong.

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Actually, he has. By taking this thread slightly off topic and turning into his place to argue with me and anyone else he so decides to, he has hijacked the thread and even after being politely asked by Mitsuhide and myself to stop, he has not done so.
I also believe I am holding up fine in this arguement and if you have nothing of value to add to it, why bother responding at all?

TomteOfDoom 说:

Iga ninja assassinated Oda Nobunaga?
Forget it man, he was killed by one of his own vassals, Akechi Mitsuhide. He actually attacked Nobunaga in Kyoto with his own army. This is such a well documented event that it can't possibly be a cover-up, there were even foreigners there at that very time who witnessed the ordeal.

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*sigh*

Yes he was indeed. However, Togakure-ryu history says that because Oda Nobunaga was so paranoid and his security so tight, a inside, trusted individual would need to be "bought", preferably one with power and an army. You also forget that most people, including Samurai, believed Oda was half-Oni (demon) and invincible. The gamble was that if the army succeeded, Oda would be killed, however if they failed, a powerful retainer and many soldiers would be lost, weakening the target's protection and allowing a surgical strike by a team.
Mitsuhide and his forces did the job, but it was Iga money (or Tokugawa's, again, it is unclear/unstated) or, a promise to have high esteem and holdings within the Tokugawa Shogunate, that bought it. The records from that time (verbal) are not clear what the payment was exactly.Therefore, by Togakure-ryu account, they assassinated him via a hireling.
There is even a celebration every year in what was once Iga Prefecture (now Mie Prefecture) on the day of Oda's death, celebrating thier victory over him at Hannoji Temple.

http://www.yamasa.org/japan/english/destinations/mie/ueno.html

But, alas, you are doing it again. You just cannot stop can you?

Admins, I suggest either locking this thread/poll or, giving TomteOfDoom a warning for constant thread hijacking, since a polite request to stop obviously went unacknowledged.

You will have to excuse my sensitivity on the subject. As it were much of what I have said has been misconstrued and it seems TomteofDeath has this need to argue and take things said way out of context. I apologise ShadowofDeath92.

The irony is I came to this forum because I bought the game and wished to help make it better and make friends here. Instead I have been laughed at, teased, mocked, argued with and belittled *shrug*

The basic gist is, he beleves what is in the history books (written by scribes that followed the Shogun and Daimyos) and I, the one taught verbally to me during my training in Togakure-ryu over 24 years (the people slaughtered in Iga Prefecture by Oda Nobunaga and later assassinated his sorry arse).

It is interesting how he has centered on strictly the Geisha. It was a term I used out of context. Perhaps I should have said "the Kunoichi posed as prostitutes and entertainers" instead of using a term most people are familiar with. Perhaps also I should have said the Ninja posed as "Monks" instead of "Yamabushi" or "Sohei" since again, TomteofDeath seems to be a "rules lawyer" and will jump on anyone who does not use terms from each period in Japan's history, even though there are many texts that have the Ninja origins with these sects. I maybe should have said "The Warrior Code" instead of "Bushido" as well, since again, he insists that the code only formed when it was called Bushido and could not have possibly existed in another form before that and fails to realize that the code wasnt the exact same but there none-the-less and was refined and enforced during the Tokugawa Shogunate.

So to make TomteofDeath happy, I will say this:

The Ninja when they started striking out against thier enemies, posed as Monks, poets, prostitutes and entertainers, poisoning rice shipments, setting fires, infecting the Samurai with fatal STDs and killing many Daimyo's in thier sleep.

Now TomteofDeath...do you understand now? Is this a huge leap in logic for you?

Also, please, will you stop picking on people? I can count in 3 threads against a few people you are actively "picking" out and on. Chill will ya, it doesn't make you a bigger man or a better person doing so. Quite the contrary I am sure, if you asked other people what they thought.

Also, perhaps you should stop hijacking the thread as this is for a poll and I, in turn, will stop responding in kind.

Thanks

Lets just clarify one thing. I never said Geisha killed anyone, if you reread, I said Kunoichi posed as Geisha and killed.

Ninja posed as many different members of each different caste in an attempt to infiltrate, gather intelligence and kill targets.

*shrug*

But please, continue to mock me and take my statements out of context.

TomteOfDoom 说:

............
Lastly, you have a good point about the difference between ninja and native americans, so why do you even bring it up? The comparsion is almost insultive. At any rate, I think I have already proven that your sources are sub par in terms of historical accuracy. At least I hope that the modders recognize this and refrain from using info that you provide.

On my part, thank you for the discussion.

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Firstly because I was illustrating how victors write the history books. Two, how people can believe one thing and be totally wrong. Third, it is not insultive in the least since I happen to be Half-Cree.
Also, you go by what you read in a book. I have been told mine from my Shidoshi. Either way, if I am wrong or not, I still believe in my Shidoshi and the histroy handed down by the Togakure-ryu for 1000 years.
You are arguing with me from the point of books, and I, from verbal recounting. Its a futile arguement and one I never sought to get into in the first place. It was you who attacked me originally and insulted me in your responses.
When debating, you should leave personal attacks out of the arguement. Not doing so only shows a lack of maturity and intelligence, even if that is not the case, as I assume it is with you.
Either way, I wont continue to debate with you since you are becoming personal and I hope now you can feel all big and manly and feel like you have a huge penis because you believe you are better then me

Actually it was a simple type-o. No-dachi was what I had intended to type.

Too bad that people will nitpick about a typo hehe

Thanks MaDpRoGrAmMeR for defending me, appreciated.

TomteOfDoom 说:

Geisha:
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~oaandrey/geisha/history.html

Bushido:
http://www.geocities.com/klancesegall/2.htm

Yamabushi:
http://www.uwec.edu/greider/Chinese...ages/Krautbauer.Yamabushi/sacred.practice.htm

Martial practice and the ownership of weapons was not restricted to the samurai until AFTER the social reforms of Toyotomi Hideyoshi, the sword hunt for example took place in 1588, before that, japan was one of the most armed countries in the world. Mordaneth, what you say is just a rehash of different facts and sometimes misconceptions, not giving account for where and when. What sohei and militant yamabushi did, there was no laws against. Neither were there any open persecution of religeous sects, only supression of religous militants. It's a huge difference. The samurai themselfes were members of a wide array of different religous sects, and different daimyos were allied to different sects. Some of them even took on priesthood themselfes, Uesugi Kenshin and Takeda Shingen are two famous examples.

Arahan: Yes, there were militant yamabushi too, just as there were sohei, but being a yamabushi does not automatically make you a militant. As the
site suggests, yamabushi were in essense mountain ascetics.

For ninja, use the word shinobi, as it's more era proper. Skip all the specialized "ninja gear". If shinobi fought in open confrontations, they used equipment suited for this, that is, the same as anyone else. Since this game cannot handle stealth combat or surprise attacks, there's no need to include equipment specialized for those situations. Model these special ninja weapons faithfully, and they will simply put the user at a dissadvantage in open combat.

As for yakuza, the term didn't come to life until after the Tokugawa unification. By then, many samurai were discharged, since the need for them ceeded with the war. They became ronin, and roamed the country, looking for other means of living. They often turned to occupations relying on martial proficiency, such as police and bodyguards. Others instead became criminals as the other possiblities were occupied, and with their roots in the samurai culture, they helped found the yakuza, which came to be similarly organized.

Ronin during the sengoku jidai however could easily find employment with clans, since the war was raging at it's fullest, so there was little need for them to turn to other solutions. If you were a permanent ronin at the time of war, it was either by your own choice, or because you were so pitiful, noone wanted to hire you. Some samurai remained ronin to be able to freely develop themselfes as they wished, as with Miyamoto Musashi, who remained a ronin for most of his life, only entering shorter periods of service. However, if you still were a forced ronin, in time of war, you would not organize criminal enterprises in populated areas, since the level of mobilisation was high throughout the period. It was more common that dispossessed samurai formed gangs of bandits and highwaymen together with other social outcasts and pillaged the countryside. Some of these bands grew into smaller armies and was considered a strong liability.

At any rate, there weren't many ronins during the Onin-war either, because it was by that time the daimyo's were born, as commoners took the oppertunity to fill the gaps of the samurai families, weakened or destroyed by the war. Thus, it's safe to say that all fighting men were spoken for, since the samurai families were being decimated, and the rising daimyo's were scraping together any fighting-able man they could get their hands on.

Furthermore, the daimyo's in turn were at this time regarded as little more than organized criminals themselfes, and surely, they started out as nothing else than a bunch of individuals organized around a self-proclaimed leader, together protecting a piece of land which they claimed by force of arms. It was they who by own accord made the existing higher strata, the buke and kuge recognize them as an authority, once they had made their power clear.

This is just to give you some historical backdrop to the period of interest, make of it what you please.

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Ok I will provide my links now, and again, you decide:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamabushi -Yamabushi

http://www.konigunninjutsu.com/history.html -Ninjutsu

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~malokofs/SCA/Persona/History/samurai.html -Sohei and Samurai


The issue is, the lore and history of Ninjutsu has only been commited to paper in the last 200 years. Before that it was handed down verbally. I guess the issue becomes do you believe what was passed down by the Soke, or by historians who were part of the Shogunate.
Its similar to the Native Americans. Until the last 30 years, they were demonized and called horrible names and even attributed with being the aggressors, called cannibals, witches etc.. We now know different right? However the difference is, that isnt ancient history and the facts came to light as they are still generally recent.

Duke John 说:

I would listen to Tomte if I were you. The black clad ninja is a tale of fantasy. In pictures they were drawn in those clothes since it was considered a rule that black figures are "invisible". I guess we all know that black clothes isn't particularly camouflage since it provides the greatest contrasts with every colour..........

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I said nothing about the Shinobi-shozoku. However you are correct in that the outfit we all know today was not thier standard dress, even on missions. Some sources state they wore dark grey uniforms, or dark reds, greens, browns etc... I was taught that they dressed the part of whatever they were doing and dressed to best fit in that enviroment with out attracting attention of suspicion. If they infiltrated a castle, they dressed as servents or Samurai and more often then not, monks of some degree or poets.
The uniform we see today is derived from the suits used in Kabuki theater for the stagehands to change the props and backgrounds unseen by the audience and not authentic in anyway.

TomteOfDoom 说:

Arahan:

Don't draw anything from what Mordraneth says, at least not if you don't want a fantasy-setting, because that's what he offers.

Firstly, there was no bushido prior to the Tokugawa reforms, Mordraneth suggests that the ninja were fighting what their later ally created, before it even happened. Obviously complete bull....

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Tokugawa reformed Bushido into what we know in modern day but did not create the ideals of Bushido. The code was first formulated in the Kamakura period (1185–1333) and put into writing in the 16th century.; the term itself, however, did not come into wide use until the 17th century under the Tokugawa Shogunate.
Also, perhaps instead of being condencending and rude, you could cease the personal assault and stick strictly to your version of Nippon history.

TomteOfDoom 说:

Secondly there were no geishas prior to the edo jidai, which puts out even more of his ideas as pure fabulations.

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Actually, you are incorrect. Geisha have indeed been around since pre-Edo, however, they were both men (Taikomochi) and women until the Edo period when the practice became legalised. Ochaya (tea houses) used Geisha for over 500 years by this time, albiet, without licenses.

TomteOfDoom 说:

Thirdly, shinobi and ninja are still just terms for medieval japanese covert operators. These could be anything from hired thugs to actual samurai, they could also be clans/families specializing in the trade, either to further their own interests(self-preservation or ambitions of power) or to hire themselfes out to others. These families may or may not have had their own teachings, but know this, just as there was no bushido by that time, there was no ninpo either.
Instead, each house or clan had their own "house-codes". That holds true for merchants, farmers and ninja too, not just samurai. These were simply family-rules, in the manner of "the head of the family suggest this and that should be done, and these are matters worth pursuing etc...". These codes could also include recommendations in fighting styles, if the house concerned was a fighting family(buke), and would thus suggest the members to use various weapons or tend perticular schools.

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Again incorrect. The characture Nin is comprised of 2 Kanji characters, To (sword) and Shin (Heart). The characture represents Sword over Heart, or to Endure. The actual translation is "To Endure". The suffix -ja- denotes a person or persons. Like Nihonja (one who is Japanese) or Ninja (one who endures). Ninja, were and are still a class of operative seperate from Shinobi in the minds of most Japanese.
Shinobi translates as "stealer in" or "in stealth" and is now commonly used to describe any spy, agent or assassin uwho uses subterfyge and stealth to achieve a goal.
Thugs are not called Shinobi, nor Ninja. The term used to describe them is Yakuza or, translated "violent men".
Again, you allude that there was no Bushido or Ninpo at this time. Again, you are incorrect. Ninpo, or the basis of the system of belief, formed over 1000 years ago. Perhaps you need some links to historical sites and books to correct your mistakes?

TomteOfDoom 说:

Furthermore, there were no secret society of persecuted religous refugees such as Mordraneth describes. Sure, many religious sects came in conflict with various daimyos, and then they used all manners of warfare against them(they probably employed shinobi too), but some allied themselfes to daimyo instead and supported them(religously, monetary or with soldiers), given that it would protect their interests. Religious sects who fielded soldiers gave birth to sohei, military priests. It was basically just a powergame, to keep the influence on the population that supported their temples/shrines/teachings and made their livelyhood.

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The Zen Buddhist is taught that should one meet thier master on the road, kill him. This literaly means that no man or woman has any master. This teaching, among others, was against the ideals of the Daimyos and this lead to the persecution of these Zen Buddhist sects. Also, the practice of martial disciplines of any kind by commoners was outlawed and the Yamabushi violated this decree daily. Again, perhaps a link or two, maybe some book referances would clear up your misconceptions?

TomteOfDoom 说:

A note should also be made about the yamabushi; this is not so much a term for a militant group, as for a very different branch of religous practitioners, with roots in Yamato-japan. The practice, named shugendo, was actually an escape from the state enforced buddhism of that time, and derives much from the indigenous believes of japan. It later became a mix of a vide variety of sects and beliefs, and served to bring the imported religions(buddhism and confucianism) closer to the native ones.
The term yamabushi, which seems to have something to do with warriors(due to the -bushi) simply translates as 'one who sleeps in mountains'. So as you might understand, "yamabushi ninjas" who were strictly buddhists is a strong paradox too.
However, just as the more directly buddhist sects spawned militants, so did the yamabushi.

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Again, let me clarify. The Yamabushi split into various sects after the persecution. Some became Sohei, following a more Tao look on combat and spirituality. Others, became Yamabushi Tendai, who formed enclaves in the mountains and stayed with thier Zen teachings, still training in militant practices however. Of the last two, one went on to develop the Kuji Kiri (9 Gates) and began to discover what is now Ninjutsu; the other, became Sugenja and discarded the Zen aspects of thier beliefs, embracing a more esoteric outlook; worshiping nature and the elements.

TomteOfDoom 说:

Also note that there were no special ninja-armor made from leather and split bamboo, that would just have been a waste of good leather, since the bamboo would actually weaken the leather rather than reenforce if used as a compound. You would actually practice weaponcuts on bundles of bamboo, that sort of explains the materials protective quality.

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Ahhh you see, here is where you are assuming. The Koga did indeed have such armors. The difference is again, they were split and dried bamboo stalks, soaked in Koji (rice mould base) then sun dried. The peices were then attached to tooled leather, not boiled or hardened. This was used only in battlefield formations to prevent archers from decimating the rear ranks and could easily and quickly be discarded for melee combat. This type of armor however did not last very long as this was made around the time the Portugese started trading firearms to the Samurai, making it effectively useless.
The Japanese use bamboo bundles for cut testing that are not treated or dried save for being pitted of thier cores. They are then, cut into strips, tied and woven like a mat and then rolled into bundles. Much weaker then a split stalk.

TomteOfDoom 说:

The bottomline is, heed anything that Mordraneth provides at your own risk, if you wish to keep the historical approach.

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Perhaps you should do some research and then debate your stance. Again, if you like I can provide links to numerous sites and a listing of books you may purchase inorder to prove or disprove what I have said, if you are so inclined.

Too true

Blue Coyote 说:

You can say "the victors write the history books" as lightly as you please, but since, as you say, you are a practitioner of the art, then you are just as biased when it comes to the history of Japan. It really comes down to what we prefer to believe.

Even the histories on the links you provided condradict each other. For example, one has the ninja as purely Shinto practitioners. Another has them, as you said, as Buddhists persecuted and harrangued for their beliefs- which is interesting, considering ninja were still active even after Japan became predominately Buddhist. The links even admit that ninja history is extremely foggy and indefinate, relying on reproduced diaries and other questionable ancient literature.

Note: Was I to assume that you were a practitioner of said art just because you discussed ninja with us? I don't know how you expected us to draw that conclusion without actually telling us beforehand.

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That is why I supplied several sides of the history books, so people could decide on thier own.
Yes, that is when the assassin for hire image began to surface and what many view us as today, unfortunately. When a culture only learns to fight, after the war is over, what does one do?
Also, I apologize, I had thought I had mentioned it in my first post. After rereading it, I realized I had not.

Fujiwara 说:

ACTUALLY, shinobi wore a set of silenced, padded mail, with the woven chain sandwiched in between two or more layers of cloth. This protected them from the slashing attack of a katana, and was MUCH more flexible than the armour described above. Any more armour than that would have hindered mobility and stealthiness. The armour described above is a tatami dou, lit. "folding armour", and it was worn by ashigaru and poor bushi, not ninja.

The following is a link to my armour sensei, who also happens to have advanced degrees in Japanese history. I trust his judgement on the matter:

http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/ninja.html

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Actually, they wore 2 suits. One for warfare (which they did rarely) and one for stealth missions.
You failed to notice I assume the line that states they used this type of armor for military formations only, not stealth based missions at all.
Did you also know that the Koga also had a 3rd set of thier own, personal armor, unique to that clan, that was made from split bamboo and soft tooled leather used to deflect arrows when in the rear of formations when assisting the Samurai? It could easily be shed and allowed then to survive the barrage of arrow fire until ranks split and they could move to the rear enemy lines.
Either way, I am going by what I was taught by my Shidoshi and like you, I trust his judgement on the matter, but unlike you, I am not being patronizing in my reply =)

Arahan 说:

Hello Mordraneth,

I do not necessarily question the validity of the information you provide, but I would like to see any sources you might have handy, just out of interest. Thanks for your contribution. Perhaps you would like to get involved with the mod project overall? We could always use another theme guru.

- Arahan

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No insult taken =)

Here are some brief descriptions I have found on Ninpo history:

http://www.shinobi-kai.com/history.htm

http://www.boston-ninpo.com/History.htm

http://www.ninpo.org/ninpohistory/ninpohistory.html

If you wish to purchase a book written by the 34th Soke Massaki Hatsumi, the URL is:

http://www.kungfumovies.net/29633.html

or for a complete list:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/V0O8F9FY2L7T/104-1651564-2042356

Hope these help =)

I would be honored to assist in the project if I may. Though I am unsure as to how. My area of knowledge mainly is the Edo period. If I can though, sign me up and thank you.

Blue Coyote 说:

This information seems sketchy, and conflicting at times. Where did you get all this, Mordraneth?

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You mean despite the fact that I am a long time practioner of Togakure-ryu Ninjutsu?

Many many sessions of history with my Shidoshi. Remember, the victors write the accepted history books, but usually the beaten keep thier own account as well.

If you are interested in history from the Ninpo side, I would be happy to provide some links to several Bujinkan sites.