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demiurge 说:

The towns look kind of sparsely inhabited now. It might be more work than it's worth, but maybe some of the prisoner start points could be switched to peasant start points. I mean, you'd have to edit every single scene, so probably not worth doing on its own, but if some later feature required editing every scene, it'd be something to consider then. 12 -15 peasants with 8 - 5 prisoners, something like that.

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Here I am, harping on population again... (j/k ) 

I was just reading back through this thread though and came across this post.  This one stood out to me because I was fiddling around with prisoner start points today and realizing that they are an odd lot.  While 31 and 32 are ostensibly the two resource points, it appears that prisoners randomly pick a point distant from their starting point, run to it, stand around, run back, then pick another point (at random) and do it again.  The only real special thing about 31 and 32 appears to be that no-one spawns at those two, initially.

It occurs to me as I write this though that a change to the spawn mechanic would be required, above and beyond simply reassigning the numbers to a different group.  That is, unless something similar to Berpol's code above controls prisoner spawns as well.

At any rate, this is mostly a bump for Demiurge's idea, since we're talking about the same issue.


[EDIT:]

Reading back I'm seeing some discussions about variety in merchants, and the plans to turn heroes into merchants and slavers *cough* sorry, 'prisoner salesmen'.  I have to say, that's an awesome idea Wicked.    In the meantime though, is there a simple way for us to add variety to the merchant stock with tweaks on our end?  I was sad to find that no matter how many settlements I edit up to merchant levels, they all carry the exact same stock.   Makes getting specific pieces of gear rather complicated.

All hail Queen Lucy?

I have to say, the community here is one of the great things about this mod.   Between Liquid for the idea, and Berpol for the code-wizardry, it's a great hotfix!  Thank you guys very much!

Berpol 说:

The change is actually rather easy, for now it checks if economic upgrade is 2 (and spawns 2 peasants) or not (and spawns 1 peasant).

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You wouldn't happen to know where the "spawns 1 peasant" value in that code you posted earlier is, would you?  (For the truly greedy amongst us.)

I still stand by the thought that half of the problem isn't volume, it's placement.  Now with this hotfix (thanks guys!), this is easily a post 1.x idea, but I still hope that someday we could find a way to increase the number of spawn points and alter post-spawn behavior.  Aside from people on balconies, market stalls have always been a challenge to populate if you want a market bigger than four merchants.

As an aside though, is there any way that map-makers can duplicate certain spawnpoints on their own so as to make copies of the existing 10 peasant spawn points?  This may seem redundant with this new fix, but even with the ability to substantially increase the spawn volumes (I jacked mine up to 6 peasants / spawn-point), their distribution through more complex cities (using that "maze-like" layout Liquid described earlier) is still patchy.


Oh, and an almost completely unrelated, post 1.x idea for scripted events and quests.  Would it be feasible to implement assassin ambushes similar to those found in native, but as a timed, random chance event like traveller and bandit spawns while in settlements?  Or am I just way behind the times and this has been discussed alreay?  (Still only 1/3 done with reading through this thread in it's entirety. )

Francisian 说:

A big city on the begining and yet theres like what 40 people in it (20 troops and 20 peasnts? At least put more peasnts walking around

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I am of the same opinion, of course, which is one of the two reasons I am curious about adding stationary spawn points (i.e. spawn and loiter) for peasants as well.  On the other hand though, I can see some problems for people with older machines having performance issues due to to many peasants in some of the larger cities.

As a possible work around to please everyone, would it be possible to use the same mechanic as calling for reinforcements?  Rather than "call" for them each time you enter the settlement, you instead use a dialog with the Peasant Elder to select from one of two or three levels of active population.  (Meaning that every time you enter the settlement, the appropriate number of waves are called automatically, possibly delayed by short intervals to allow them to wander off and not clump up.) 

Possible settings include 'minimal' (CS standard), 'active' (one additional wave), and 'bustling' (two or three additional waves, depending on settlement size).  As for the dialog itself, it could be couched in terms of issuing civil decrees about public gathering (if low honor), or public health (if high honor).  Even in medieval fiction, lawmaking is all about the spin.  

Additionally, it just occurred to me that if the above solution was possible, the same thing could be done with troops as well (and clumping up while walking around would even be in-theme), to allow greater control over the "flavor" of the theme.  Perhaps limit the number of "wave" options in the setup dialog to reflect the e_m_ status of the settlement?

Liquidninja 说:

That is not so much an issue with entry points, as it is with the AI mesh. In all settlements with AI meshes, you will find that NPCs can navigate from one point to another flawlessly, even climbing stairs, going through corridors and the like. AI mesh - takes a long time, not very fun to make; but it rocks.

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Oh wow.  I thought all maps had an AI mesh.  After fiddling with the tutorial on it for a while I had come to the conclusion that that was probably why maps take so long to make. 

After looking at the mesh in Custow, I can see where the problem I was observing was coming from.

Thanks Liquid!

(It would still be nice to be able to put pezes on balconies though. )

I suspect that something like this (or even more elaborate) may already be in the works.

wickedshot 说:

Post any suggestions or requests in this thread.

Planned Features:

0.6 - raidable, conquerable, degradeable settlements
0.68 - hero professions, game start options
0.7 - dynamic objects, doors, ladder, and more
0.8 - upgradeable indoor areas and special areas
0.9 - spouses, children? more interaction with heroes, quests
1.0 - new overlandmap, polishing
1.x+ Adding content made by others and generally improving everything

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Version 1.0+
-new world map
-placeable settlements (i.e. not camps at first, instead you can make a camp anywhere and then start building it up)
-Add Custom Troops by fisheye

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Berpol 说:

To increase the number of visible peasants I used the arena dummies. When they are far enough away they look quite good... You can see some results in Ashfurt:

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In the distance, they are definitely very helpful (using some right now on my minarets and watchtowers), but on balconies and such, they are close enough that they really stand out as not fitting in.  (The first time I saw your family on the rooftop balcony in Ashfurt, I stopped.  My first two thoughts were "clothing/armor mannequins or wax museum?") 

No offense intended, of course.  I thought it was a really creative idea!  I just felt bad that it stood out so much at close range.  With some of the architecture styles, having people at that range on houses is kind of a moot point (due to a lack of balconies).  But with the "steppe" style, there are lots and lots of balconies... Omsg...  Makes for a very empty looking city, especially when cities built in that style were so renown for feeling crowded and overpopulated.

My other main reason for asking though is that even in Custow, I see peasants walking into walls on a regular basis.  It would definitely be nice to be able to have them populate hard to navigate parts of the city without doing a walking shikantaza impersonation.

Francisian 说:

...put more peasants in the latter upgrades of the citys, i have seen a screent shot in the improved buildings threadh and there was one with a street filled with all sorts of pesnts moving around, this would add so much to immersion, imagine moving around your town and seeing much more people doing their business...

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Forgive me if someone has already addressed this, I am slowly wending my way through this thread...

I had a similar interest to Francisian in terms of (having the option to) more densely populate settlements.  Would it be possible to add another group of entrypoints after #49 that are NPC loiter points?  The idea being that a 'loiter' point could allow a scene-maker to not only flesh out a settlement's apparent population more without having to worry pathing issues from points 10-19, but also engage is some otherwise impractical, creative peasant placement without borking things up.  (Up on otherwise inaccessible balconies, etc.)

Just out of curiosity, how does the pathing logic on points 10-19 work?  Is it that any npc at one point can travel to any other point in that group?  Or do they pass from point to point in order?  (From 1 to 2, or 2 to 1, but not 1 to 3?)

Liquidninja 说:

Eca 说:

Just out of curiosity, is there any concern about setting some standards on fortification and layout when siege goes in?  My point being that not all settlements are created equally when it comes to defense. 

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The general standard that wickedshot put out for the scenemakers way back when was essentially:

1) Some sort of wooden fortifications for military 1 settlements.
2) Some sort of stone fortifications for military 2 settlements.

Naturally, most scene makers have stretched that "some sort" quite a bit. Some of them completely foregoing any semblance of a standard defence.

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I'm toying around with an Arabian style settlement right now, so in the spirit of theme and "stretching", I was wondering if anyone thinks that modest stone defenses (low walls and bulwarks, some earthworks, sparse spike-hedges, etc.) might be a reasonable substitute for "some sort of wooden fortifcations" for e1m1, in an environment largely bereft of wood?

A very intriguing idea, but I am curious what effect does the outpost have on nearby enemies without any scouts, and will the outpost "assist" nearby scouts that engage in combat?  Would it be possible to increase the radius in which an outpost group can initiate combat, but make sure that the outpost itself is not present on the battle-map?  (Not likely to be an issue unless the player decides to jump into the fray.)

As for it being a castle-in-a-pocket, it would be neat to actually do up some separate "castle" maps for outposts that are more low-walled palisades than high walled keeps.

I have to say that in Medieval 2: Total War, outposts were invaluable for their ability to flexibly fortify choke-points on the map.  I'm curious to see if they achieve the same effect in MnB.

Crroatian 说:

i just hope that siege will be implemented soon

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It's definitely the feature I'm most looking forward too.   After all, being able to do siege battles is one of the things that makes MnB so unique in the first place.

Just out of curiosity, is there any concern about setting some standards on fortification and layout when siege goes in?  My point being that not all settlements are created equally when it comes to defense. 

I can see as many ways that could be interesting and fun as much as I can see them being a problem.  I'm just curious what other people's thoughts on this are.

Berpol 说:

To your original question:
To hire peasants directly from another settlement you have to talk to the elder peasant (he appears with the first economic upgrade).
To get peasants that way you need a positive reputation with the settlement (each hired group reduces reputation by 2) and 200 denars.

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Oh cool!  I didn't realize any function had been implemented for him yet.  Awesome, thank you!

Berpol 说:

Cedero 说:

Thank you both very much. I have given my workers two tools and it is now 54 production.

ANd to make sure, production gives me more resources yes?

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To put it short: Yes

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2 points / 1 (400+ gold) tool seems a bit off to me. 

Early on, when your production value is the only way to directly increase the speed at which you upgrade other than recruiting more villagers and capturing more slaves, is also the time when money is the tightest.  Once you get your first upgrade, things start steaming along nicely, as there are enough enemies to fight to make the money you need to purchase resources outright.  After you are done upgrading, there are significantly easier ways of making money than tools...

So I guess it's just a matter of giving you the ability to optimize your production?

Cedero 说:

Oh, and the peasants that the caravan brings me after I loot another settlement, are they prisoners or peasants when they arrive in my town?

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In addition to what Liquid said (thanks for helping me with this conundrum as well ), it is my understanding that prisoners of the settlement you are raiding will, when freed, join your populace/army.  This can be seen when the slave caravan leaves the settlement you are raiding and heads for your capitol.  You can see that in addition to the slave driver, there are sometimes peasants, harvesters, and soldiers driving the slaves.  Those are former slaves of the settlement you just raided.

Liquidninja 说:

Peasants/workers that arrive from looting other settlements will all end up (eventually) in your own workforce. So your productivity will improve for the better.

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In addition to this, something Liquid mentioned to me in another thread where I had a similar question, it appears that only peasants and harvesters change from slaves to citizens over time.  Enslaved soldiers seem to remain slaves forever (or until sold...).

Francisian 说:

I actually think its very well balanced

You need more prisoners to harvest stone, wich i think is about right since mining is such a dangerous job

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I think perhaps what Berpol meant by them having faulty ratios is that, without explanation, it is not apparent what to expect from the different harvester types.  For instance, I would never have guessed that the Quarryman produces equal units of all resources types, and only one of each.  While mechanically the balance seems fine, it is very misleading to those who haven't read this thread.  Whenever I made settlements, I was always at a loss as to the ratios of worker types I needed after I realized the results I was getting were rather squirrely at best.

An example of what I would have imagined the distribution to be before:




Now I have to say that the peasant producing a unit of wood in addition to food, while I wouldn't have originally guessed it before seeing my first month's production numbers, makes perfect sense.  With those numbers, a settlement will naturally grow into a village and then a town all on it's own with only the slave labor of bandits captured inside the settlement itself to provide the necessary stone.

Devercia 说:

Castle is mostly finished. Terrain is about 75% done too.

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anyway to get prop trees from self-illuminating?

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I *love* the flying bridges across the ravine.  Very nicely done.

Mountain settlements are by far some of the coolest, but they have a major handicap of being VERY slow to traverse.  Show your players love with shallow angles of ascent on your stairs and ramps!  We will love you forever for it. 


Question that's a complete aside:

Are there any plans to add more possible empty settlements once all the ones available fill up?

Also, what happens if two people submit a settlement for the same slot?  They have to figure out who will move to a different one?

(Terrain-gen trees can't be removed at all?)

Liquidninja 说:

Maybe this is the source of the mysterious disappearances?

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That's kinda what I thought might have been happening, but if it does take some time for them to be assimilated into the workforce as you were saying, then that would explain why I'm not seeing it.   Will have to do some tests and watch them over time.  Thank you, btw.

Oh, just for the record, there is no real troop-to-slave ration in settlements other than the likelihood of getting a slave revolt event, correct?

Crroatian 说:

Griskard  so you are just watching the show or fighting another faction

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I was wondering the same thing.   On that subject, I wish there was a way to alter NPC aggressiveness.  I know they have character traits, but it can be a major operation to try and get a single NPC to claim a settlement so that they can be all warlike and stuff...

Liquidninja 说:

They disappear because eventually slaves earn the right to become full citizens too! Incidentally, they earn their citizenship through (forced) hard labor.

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That was my original thought.... but I have sat there and very carefully watched as slave caravans get assimilated into a settlement.  I might send a caravan with (rounded numbers for easy math at this late hour) 60 slaves and one driver into a settlement with 70 troops, 30 prisoners, and 220 population.  Once it "joins" I have gained 1 troop (the driver) and 20 slaves...?  The number gained seems to go up a *little* if I remove all of the slaves in the settlement already.  (Something I tried on suspicion that there was a minimum troop-to-slave ratio.)  Is a caravan "deposit" more complex than a single event, or am I missing something?

A question about this.  The troop editor lets you place pistols and shells on troops that will show up if you start a new game.  In-game however, I can only ever get the pistol as loot (placing it on heroes then recruiting them and taking it), but no shells.  Is there a way to get the shells to appear in the game as well?  I'm not really sure why one will show up, but the others become vacant slots...

Thanks!

Lord_Adam 说:

I'd imagen the rich ones would. Well, here is what happened with my buffed looters.

Charge:

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Aftermath:

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I *love* your new looters!  They look much cooler (and more dangerous).  They also have the added bonus of actually being worth fighting now that they drop loot with actual value.  (In Native I skip right past the looters to Sea Raiders, they're not even worth the time at level 1... Kinda sad really.)

I too have lamented the lacking strength of the bandit tree from both sides of the fence for some time now.  As a troop tree for a bandit player, they are outright fail.  (I get more mileage out of persuading prisoners and having some well maintained heroes.)  As an opponent, they are little better.  Gimp loot, low xp, and small patrol sizes make them rather anemic all the way around.  The only thing they are really useful for is as a quick and dirty source of slaves.  Interestingly enough though, the biggest problem I think they have as opponents though, is a lack of ability to challenge NPC solo heroes.  By the end of the first month (in most of my games), the NPC hero armies are big and strong enough to simply stomp bandit parties flat (a side effect of them being such easy xp fodder for the NPC patrols to grind).  As the game progresses, the bandits don't keep pace with the heroes at *all*, leaving you with little to fight except Custow or mercenaries (I'm lookin' at *you* Wirt!) until some of the other kingdoms spring up.  That makes for a VERY boring wait period during your lead up to having your first upgrades.

In the spirit of your buffed up looters and the discussions on how the bandit tree should progress, and what they should and shouldn't have, I had an idea on that while fiddling with the troop editor.  What I'm thinking of doing is going through the armor/weapon lists and figuring out which 'categories' they all fall into (for instance, fur coats and leather vests are roughly equivalent) and then giving each tier in the bandit troop tree a category.  Once I've established what category each troop type gets, I'd put EVERY item from that category into the possible gear list... The effect being that each bandit would be a unique (if somewhat gaudy) snowflake, giving them a very pirate/bandit, looted look.  For looters, this could be further augmented by not checking *any* of the boxes for equipment types (chest armor, 1hd melee weapon, etc.) the troop is guaranteed to have.  (Obviously, looters are just beginning their life of crime and have gotten only whatever has come their way.)  Higher tier troops could have smaller lists and more guaranteed gear checked off, though all (even looters) should be able to expect at *least* a weapon they can use.  While horses fall into this category of possible random loot, I would recommend away from making it random whether ostensibly cavalry style bandits have horses, and lean more towards the possibility of non-cavalry troops possibly having a horse.  Some fiddling may be required to make sure it doesn't simply give a horse to every other bandit when using that setup.

Anyway, let me know what you think of that, or if you have any other ideas for rounding things out.  In the meantime, I'm off to buff my looters!

Griskard 说:

Maybe we could add in a bunch of custom factions sometime down the line?

More detailed kingdom management. Its pretty good, but maybe some ways to change the number/tier of troops your patrols get. Same with Caravans. Upgrades for towns would be nice too.

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I really like the custom factions idea.  All factions are in CS really are troop trees, names, and a text color.  Just adding this option would be excellent.  The community can provide the actual trees themselves early on, and in the spirit of the settlements themselves, the good ones can make it into the game proper.

I too am a fan of more detailed management.  (That and seiges with closed gates.  Would it be that hard to have a different map for each *military* upgrade level for seiges?)  Also, would be great to be able to get tasks from Elder Peasants and the like.  Both of those would add a reprieve from the only real pass-time while waiting for your settlements to build, which is running around looking for people to kill.

I also have a question about balance-over-time (specifically end-game).  Early on, it's a REAL struggle to get things going the way you want, but once you have a city and a well fitted out character, I find myself simply buying out lords and conquering towns.  After a very sluggish and rather hands-off advancement to the Castle Town level, after that I conquer the map as if it was an epilogue to all that build-up.  It's almost as if the game is over as soon as it really begins.  Balancing the progression over time would be very nice, though I'm not sure how that would be implemented.  One of the things that contributes to this I think is that you can't manage your lord's and lady's settlement building...  Leaves little to do but conquer every other culture on the map.

Oh, something I almost forgot.  The dependence upon slave-trade to make money early in the game... Having to slug groups of slaves to Ramun in Custow after every battle really contributes to the slow pace of the early game that vanishes later on.  I'd just drop all the slaves in my town, but they seem to disappear if I put more than two dozen or so in there.  They vanish over time, and if I send a slave caravan from a raided village to my own town, two thirds of them vanish!  Really makes you have to micromanage your runs to Custow...

But don't get me wrong, I absolutely *love* this mod.  I play it more than Native.