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As much as I have problems with the new system it does work. Therefore I feel its probably best to not include mercenaries in a way which is significantly different just for the sake of consistency alone. Also as an aside point, your post on the new method of freelancer had me thinking, would it be possible to have the A.I use mercenaries? For example if you do introduce them in the silverstag style would this allow the A.I to get mercenaries specific to their and their nations lands?

Sorry if this just derails the current conversation, but had to get this off my chest. Going to try and follow the allotted format for this that Windy set.

Warning, this is a little long.

Top 3 things I dislike (aiming to be constructive).

1. The new troop tree (this might take a bit, see below for my thoughts)

2.  The new Manhunters (at least in the basic version [the only one I've tried]). With the lack of upgrading them now they just suck.

3. The lack of mercenaries (connected to the new troop tree stuff, yes, but its really hard to think of problems with this mod).

Top 3 things I like.

1. The player/troop abilities/skills. This is amazing on so many levels

2. The new quests and the different ways they can unfold (I really want more companion quests!).

3. The new Troop tree (>_<). My opinion of it is complicated.

1 thing to change about the mod

1. I'd really like to see a means of getting the companions to get over their dislikes of other companions, preferably through some quest/event thing. For example Ymira and Matheld dislike each other, on the basis of their respective upbringing. However I feel they could be friends as they are both people who have had to run away, and want to change so as to make sure this doesn't happen again. There could be a system for sending 2 or 3 companions on a mini mission which once complete removes their dislike for each other.

Having said all this however the real crux of this post is the new troop system. I really like the concept of this, but the way it is at the moment means I find it more annoying than the default system. Let me explain.

Windy from your the blog on the wiki I've boiled down your issues with the native system to 2 main problems being lack of realism (relatively) and how it quickly became a chore. I do agree that these were problems with the native system and need addressing. I don't however think the current system does (to put it bluntly, no offence intended). It also has introduced some new problems such as the relative value of troops skewing the further into the game you get and village relation lossing a lot of value. Thus I’ve tried to come up with some ways of addressing these new problems while keeping the new system mostly intact (because it does have some awesome parts).

First is the issue of “reality”, such as how you would have to pay so little for the upgrades the troops received (such as armour, weapons, horses) and I think this was entirely a conceptual problem. See I think the cost to upgrade troops was really only ever developed as a balancing mechanism, not a thematic mechanism. I say this because you don't actually own the gear the troops use, they do. I feel this would be obvious in game except for the above mentioned payment to upgrade them. These troops are always thematically at least freelancers/soldiers of fortune. You visit towns and adventurous souls looking for fame and fortune follow you. The only difference between these and the mercs you hire is their gear and name.

The system I've thought to deal with this would be to remove all upgrade between troop type costs, and instead raise their upkeep cost to better represent the thematic system. Of course I'm not sure how hard this would be to also balance the lord's troop sizes (do they even pay upkeep?).

The next question is how do you then re-introduce the mechanic of upgrading troops that can co-exist with your new system, and avoid re-introducing the reasons for which you removed it.

In point form the system would have to meet these 3 criteria
1. the system couldn't be mandatory, e.g somehow impinge on the working of the new system.
2. the system couldn't be chore-like, something that is very monotonous and repetitive.
3. be balanced relatively to the alternative of only purchasing troops. (so as to keep balance with the AI lords)
I think this system below could work.

First you introduce a new panel which is next to the existing troop recruitment panel. This would be called the upgrade panel. Here you could take troops you own, and upgrade them to their logical successors. Ideally the action of upgrading troops should be cheaper than purchasing them outright, but only troops with the veteran and higher prefix can be upgraded (signifying the lack of requiring to train them). With this you have the added benefit of being able to give trainer back its old ability whilst stopping it from being the awesomely overpowered.

Then there are ways this could be expanded further but would probably take a lot more work. The first extension would be a system equivalent to the shopping list/auto loot system. Except in this case you take certain troops to be automatically upgraded to a certain successor whenever you visit a town/place with that option. I feel however that it would be hard to make both the system in which this is done and a U.I for it so its not that important.

Finally to further develop the problems added (and to propose some systems for dealing with them).
I mentioned troop value being skewed, what I mean is that in native, due to the time cost of getting each high tier troop they had a much higher relative value compared to the cannon fodder. However in this new system that’s inverted because the only barrier to higher tier troops really is money, which becomes less of a problem the further you get (generally speaking). To fix this you could develop the resource of recruitment. By this I mean instead of just having veterans, mercenaries, peasants and horses you could have something like this.
This means that I couldn't just go, find a place with relatively high number of veterans when I need a power army. You could further use this to augment the current refresh system. Now only mercenaries numbers would be randomly scrambled every week. First some peasants would have trained enough to move up a tier, then The peasants and horses instead would get X number of new tier 1's based on the wealth of associated villages. So to take the example above only a week later.
There would have to be some system of subtraction from the higher tiers aside from advancement to stop a builup, maybe simulate some of the AI purchases?

Finally the issue with positive relation with villages. In native it allows you to get a larger number of troops from said village but I see no benefit like that now. I feel a small but effective change that could be made is to have positive relation with a village reduce the cost of recruiting new troops by an amount relative to their relation with you.

I hope that this makes sense and is readable. I really love Silverstag and hope it continues to grow.

Hey windy

Now I haven't read all the posts before so i'm just repeating someone sorry, consider yourselves warned

I'm not gonna comment on the whole combat thingy you outlined cause I'm just not understanding it right now (1 in the morning) but I will happily give feedback on the whole betting system.

First of all, I think that the current system is of equal value to the proposed system (team bet and single bet) but they influence players in different ways. The team system is great as in players who can't/arn't good at fighting still can have a enjoyable time trying tourny's by removing/reducing the penalty of death.  It also forces the player to think much more strategically as the winning team get the most points, meaning a player can/will utilse the different commands to bring the element of strategy found in the field into the tourny. On the other hand the new system is designed to reward players (i'm talking about large bets in both cases) for getting into the thick of things by kicking ass and taking names. This means that players will obviosly try and either get team-mates killed, or out of the fight so they get the best chance of getting max kills/points.

So what i'm trying to say is that if it wasn't to hard to do, you could use the new system to bring back the "death match" like fights that would be found towards the end of the vanilla tournys (like last 8-16 people) and keep the current system for big fights early on. Of course death has to have some kind of impact for this to work so once more if its not to hard, you could have a winner and loser board.

e.g
if you have ten combatants in 1 tourny, at the end of the first fight, the bottom 3 players (least points) would get moved onto the "loser" board

winner      loser
7                3

then at then end of the tourny you have the winners (the last 3 winners left) and a top runner up (the top 3 on the loser board)

winner      loser            no reward
3                3                  4



of course as this idea was thought up in the last 5 min its quite rough but I hope you can understand
hope you like the input

hey kinsume, thanks for the quick reply

obviously I didn't make myself clear, what happens is that i capture a fief, ask for it as a reward and then wait... and nothing. Another lord get it, even if I get all lords to want me to have it and then all that happens is a little normal notification stating that fief x has been granted to whoever. I get no message, and no option to get all angry and rebel. I don't even get dennars. Is my honour the issue cause its pretty high?

once again thanks

Hey guys i have a quick question

I was wondering what exactly is the requirements are for doing that whole "Renegade from side because king was ass and didn't give you land" because for some reason I can't do it any more. To clarify I wanted to try it out and so after making a save I captured a place and after however so many turn I got the option, so i took it, saw what it did then loaded up my save. The issue is is that I'm now in a situation where I can actually do it and survive and the it won't let me, as in the option won't turn up, no matter how many places I capture and get given to another person.

I've reinstalled Floris so I don't think that's at fault here but I really don't know what to do and would really appreciate some help and if it is my save (which I assume it is) would anyone have a way to fix it.

When i head that 2.5 would be released this week I ended up constantly refreshing the page looking for this post. I'm so glad its finally here.

Windyplains 说:

Thoughts?

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Hey windy

I tried to test out the tournys a bit more, especially with the whole monetary value in mind, and from constantly following them my average income from each wad about 7.5-13k, depending on different arena's and their style. eg small arena's like wercheg was almost always at one end of the spectrum or another due to it's cluster F nature, while places like praven I was almost always in the middle.

Thats my experiences in that section and I do think that you should keep it this way or even up the monetary value cause I tried to do some clever trading on the side and maybe its because i'm really bad at trade but I always either made next to no money or lost it. Now i'm not sure exactly where but i remember somthing about floris mod pack v2.6 being more focused on trade so until that happens maybe the tourny money could be used as a sorta crutch for the weak economy but I dunno.

One final thought, could betting be turned into a sort of specific list?, like you bet that you'll K.O at least 5 dudes for greater reward/risk? but i digress, again  .

Ahhh, that clears up that issue, thanks man

One other thing occurred to me while I was tourny chasing, I know you guys have already added the ability to choose your weapon in a practice arena match and so i couldn't help but think about what other changes that could be made so here is a small list

1. A improved reward scale: The reward scale at the mo is based entirely on how long you can survive, I think it scales like, 5, then 10, then 26, then 60 and finally 200 denars for how well you do based on this scale. If it was just scaled a bit more/smoother or gained input for how many K.O's your deliver this would be a welcome change. This means that the reward could scale in a strait linar path for your survival rate

e.g

39th is 2 denars
38th is 4 denars
37th is 6 denars

This could could be then augmented (I didn't ask for this) by how many peps you knock out

e.g

1 K.O is 1


y=x(x-1)/2+1

denars = y
K.O's = x

so the numbers would look like this
1
2
4
7
11
16
22
29

so if the player K.O'ed 5 peps and was the 24th to go down he would get 43 denars, of course the numbers are up to change as you feel fit.

2. The fact that betting occurs durring tournys got me thinking, what would the peps bet on while a tourny was elsewhere, the logical answer for me was the melee fights. Now for balance issues I can understand that the player shouldn't be allowed to enter in these bets, they would be much smaller either way. The main idea of this is that based on how well the player fought, those who bet on him would would obviously be pleased/angered that the player won/lost them money thus gain or lose relation with the town. This effect should be quite small obviously and only applied to the extremes of the spectrum.

e.g
if player comes 40th-35th he loses 5-1 relation
or if player comes 5th-1st he gain 1-5 relation

3. finally maybe add some different types of melee fights, similar to the sparing one can do with their own troops, such as teams, just because I find it strange that the only melee fights are free for alls, this would get dull to watch after some time for the citizens. obviously their could be many, many different types.

eg
team
ctf
vip
one weapon type only
etc

of course these fights would be more like random events, as in one of these occur every 2-3 days, the player may enter it once that day, just to give arena fights more variety.

hope you like these suggestions, if their in the wrong place just let me know, and i'll try to work out how to move them and hasten to do so
regards skeli

ps. just had another idea concerning N1, you could make it that that the player has to pay money if they do badly, after all the reward money has to come from somewhere

Hey windy, first of all, thanks for all your amazing work, I've been really enjoying the new tourny system but I do have a few gripes.

1. The first annoyance is the way that the AI will consistently pick horses, even the commoners, who should have no training/right to use a horse in combat, it also makes arena's like Saragoth's completely buggered as you have about 10-15 horses in close proximity in that arena on hard level difficulties.

I have 2 quick, or what I think might be quick solutions.

1st, that when you enter a tourny in certain factions certain equipment is blocked.

eq nords, no horses are allowed

2nd, depending on a characters social status/class a character gains access to different equipment.

eg only lords, jarls, counts etc can use horses

I hope you have a merry christmas and thanks again, for both your work and reading my post