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@Windy. I know you do not want to include the whole diplomacy mod but where are you drawing the line on the other features? I am specifically interested in the patrol feature and being able to send 'troop caravans' from one castle/town to the next.

For the wider Silverstag board readers, is it just me or you having to be quite selective about where you get your units from?

I have found quite basic units like the Swadia Crossbowmen a great 'bang for buck' defender of castles and towns while in a pitched battle they are below par compared with the Rhodok Crossbowman which is 1 tier below. Once I manage to get a castle or town playing as a Rhodok I end up spending a huge amount of time ferrying the right troops from one place to the next. The implementation of the patrols, which allowed you to effectively move troops between holdings, really helped sort this out. Am I alone with this issue or do others find it as well? If it is already an issue for some now, once the full spectrum of centre unique units comes online it will take even longer depending on where you get them from.

And while I am on the topic of garrisons...

@Windy (again). Looking at the bug tracker under 'suggestion backlog' there is a request for garrison re-ordering. I remember this from Floris and it was great, but you had to re-order only in the garrison not, in you party from memory and you also talk about the party screen being hard coded. So the question is, when I enter a castle or town, got to 'Manage Garrison' option, once inside this screen would it be possible to implement a re-ordering of both those units in the garrison as well as those units in your party? The reason I say this is that as soon as you take a unit from your party to the garrison it loses any experience so unless you only move elite units you will re-set the exp bar.

Anyway, thats enough from me making your life difficult.

H.

Thanks Windy. Very excited all over again.

Regarding the 'Supply Runner' function of Katrin I think that it may be working but some form of check is missing...

I have been conducting a number of sieges recently and often my archers run out of arrows, I have 4 companions as archers so once I die I body slide to them. I have noticed on 4 occasions now that when I slide into their bodies that they have a full quiver of arrows/bolts but have not been shooting for quite some time like the other archers.

I can think of two reasons for this, first, that when I slide over it gives me a full quiver no matter what, this seems unlikely as I often find myself in a body with less than 100% health. Second option is that the supply runner function does work but if archers are supplied with new arrows/bolts after they have run out the code does not check to see if any are available after they run out once.

I am not a coder for this or any other game, but given the quirks I read about in other areas of the game the second option seems like a reasonably plausible explanation.

Anyway, that is just my two cents on the matter, amazing what your mind drifts to when your sitting down drinking a coffee.

Now one last plug at the diplomacy settings, I know someone else mentioned it previously, but not being able to swap villages, castles or towns is really frustraiting. I have found taking new castles and towns quite difficult compared to Floris so not being able to keep them in a similar area to try and defend them is a nightmare and I spend 80% of my time riding between them to keep them safe instead of out trying to get more.

So if at all possible, could we please have this option included in the next installment.

Thanks.

As always the Silverstag teams work is much appreciated.

H.

Hey Team,

I finally had some more time to play the current Silverstag build, I love it.

I know some of these things have been mentioned before but some of them deserve another round, some of them may be bugs but in a quick search I was not able to find them.

Buildings.
I am really enjoying the larger variety of buildings in the game. I am unsure if you intend to continue to add new ones but I would fully support that, with them emblems it also makes it possible to to do dedicated investment in an area if you are willing to pay the 6 emblems pers building to have it instantly completed for free.

New Troops.
I was not a massive fan of the new troop system originally however with your new method of being able to level them up twice I think it is a great balance. It does also stop people taking the lowest level troops and growing them into a high end tire 7 units which in effect would just not happen. So big ups on that. I also appreciate the work that has gone into the idea of unique troops, the need to carefully select a faction based on what your play style and also make best use of where to get the troops you like is something I enjoy.
I am unsure if this is a bag or if it has already been reported, but when you level up a veteran troops it loses the veteran status and shows up as a peasant recruit again. I have noticed this a number of times.

Prisoner Caravans.
I am not sure if it is just me but I have found that prisoners caravans are a great source of an instant army. What is more, attacking a prisoner caravan does not appear to give you a relationship penalty with the owner faction. So if I am short of troops, I can just go hand out near the salt mine, knock over a caravan or two and just like that I have an army with plenty of veterans and T4 units. Is this the way they are meant to be? If not then this is a bad that will require amending, maybe a -5 or -10 relationship when you attack a caravan.

Import and Export of Characters.
I am unsure how many of you use this function, but I have limited playing time so I really enjoy this function and makes it more enjoyable not to have to start from scratch every time I want to try something new. However I have noticed that when I started a new game, used the 'collect companions in the same place' function, recruited them all and then imported my own and companions from my previous game (same version, same computer, same day) that I started getting experience from the training skill. Like what you used to get in Floris at midnight, 'You have finished your days training, 100 exp' type of thing. Not that I mind, but I figure it is a left over or something in the import files.

Auto Loot System and Party Roles.
Great, this is perfect for me, spend the time early on to sort out your life and what you want folks to do and they just just do it do it for the rest of the game. I think this goes a long way to taking the grind out of the game so you can focus on the enjoyable parts, like taking the heads off your enemies and cavalry charge from the left flank to mop up the enemy archers.

Character, Unit and Companion Abilities.
I quite like these, they add another dimension to the game, allow some form of customization and also make it more interesting. Like the Bankoleva has said I am unsure if some of these skills actually work, I have found the same thing with Supply Runner, however the fact they have been thought about and added is great.

So to the whole team working on this, keep up the good work, looking forward to playing the next installment and especially the item commissioning function.

One small plea, can you please make the faction troops a priority as that will make the game much more playable while the other features come online.

Thanks again,
H.

No worries, I should have a new desktop by the time your finished exams so should have better input or discussion should you want/need it.
As for the excel, as long as it was of some use that is all good.

Hey folks,

Having a read through the new unit recruitment ideas and the fact that the AI will be recruiting the same way, is there going to be any sort of option to protect your recruits that you have horded in a town or will the AI be able to come along and buy them all up?

I am just saying if I have managed to get plenty of peasent recruits and some vertrens in a castle and then the AI wonders in and grabs them all I am going to be pissed. And since I have not noticed an option to slap them with a trout, I would be left sitting at my computer raging.... if you get my drift.

Regarding large bandit parties, I have found it easier to reduce battle sizes and then use yourself as bait with archers taking care of them, this only really works with non-mounted bad its though.
The other trick I use is to hang around the edges of multiple bandit parties and slowly pick them off 1-2 at a time, at night their sight is greatly reduced and allows you to catch them on their own more often.

Windy,
Would it be possible to make a group for units that you don't want to join the battle? Such as support units?
I know that in floris you are able to manipulate it by their order in you army, so that is what I have used in the past.

Right so I have the mark 1 spreadsheet located here https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14420813/food%20consumption.xls

The allows you to look at the effect different production levels, populations and stages 4 villages will have on a town. It also checks to see if the 75% of 2,3 and 4 good types have been met.

The blue highlighted numbers are where you can change the production (low, med or high) and also the production stage (agri, mat or ind)
The green areas are the value that you are working with such as the cost of items, consumption etc....
There are also some notes to try and make it a little more clear as to what is what and why, but there may not be enough.

Let me know if this is down the right road to being helpful, if it is I can expand it out farther to look at calculating the prosperity gain based on denars from selling to towns and what stages they are at.

I know you are busy so whenever you have the time, I am sure the wife would enjoy me looking at something other than excel while we drive.

H.

Hmmm I think I get what you mean, it is just assumed they have enough to produce the status quo of bread until you mess with it. Then I would just apply a 1:1 for bread as there is only a marginal denar increase in price and it will be unlikely to be able to make massive amounts from the trade unless on a mass scale.

The first round of questions I have are....

Prosperity : what is the Max prosperity of a village and town?

Production levels (low, Med, high) is this based on prosperity ? If so what are the levels your currently looking at for each level?

Production stages (Agri, mat, ind) what are the triggers for this (aside from 75% fulfilment)? Prosperity? If so what levels?

Got a first draft going and once I get these answers I will put it up on drop box for you, the vlookup calc is not very easy to use on the android tablet so I have stuck with more simple what if triggers that will allow you to edit the values easily when balancing.

Edit

Denar value: so in your second to last post Duh, second to last paragraph, your are saying if food production at a set productivity level (low, Med, high) should be the total value of all the goods regardless of production stage (agri, mat, Ind)?? If this is the case can we just not void the value for the purchase and then include it in the pool? Or am I barking up the wrong tree??

Edit 2 & 3...

To clarify about production stages, will you apply this to food items such as bread as processed, or will it be for things like flax to cloth only? Also will the towns have a consumption of these units? I think they have to to achieve the 75% trigger for production stages.

Are we going to need to treat the production in two pools, one for the villages to a specific town to purchase the goods for prosperity, then a second one after the towns like a faction pool for merchants once everyone has been fed?

Regarding lag, would it be worth having each faction process at a different hour on the world map for these calcs? Thus allowing for a more spread out load. I notice that things like exp from trg skill and other items that happen around midnight do not all happen at the exact same time.

Duh, Your outline for prosperity growth based on production level and stage while still being tied to denars could be a little interesting, it might just be easier to tie it to denar earnings and just have an upkeep cost for the villages (3 denars per person), thus balancing it and making it possible to have negative prosperity based on negative income.

Mint, well I will start working on this in the next few days, just finished the longest drive of my journey, car accident included, but have a few days in my current location and then a few more days in another.

I will no doubt have plenty of questions as I go so expect some more posts shortly.

I will work at getting a working 4 village and 1 town combo running to start with that ties the production level and stage together. I will just link the denar cost of food production to the raw and processed goods on a ratio basis that can be changed in future as you decide what you want the to be. I will however probably have to use macros to effect the growth over say 7 cycles, but will cross that bridge when I get there and stick with v look up and basic calcs for the most part.

Would be keen to see the item overviews.

Also would it be worth doing an excel model for all items at each level for the villages and towns so you can see the effect that will have on the over all production, prosperity and population? That would also allow for some balancing prior to it going into a beta 2.6 test.

Details details, always with the details.

I would expect that a name change should not be that difficult... also beer? Would it not be more mead rather than beer?
The Swedish seem to have a good cider reputation now days, maybe that is why cider and apples, not that I would know much about that coming from the other side of the world.

Duh 说:

Ah, then we might have to agree on the unit we are talking about first. I figured the best way to go about things is to consider 1 whole product, since that is the easiest to understand for both new people and experienced folks. People dont produce 1/6 or 4/6 of a chicken, but an entire animal and while the consumption will be more precise, the math will have to be in whole products due to the math limitation, which i mentioned before. So would you change your numbers knowing that everything is 1 whole product? I dont think it really clashes with what you have come up with so far, but if you have any thoughts im happy to hear them.

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Well if that is the case then I think you just approach it that it is one full unit, so a chicken, bag of gain cabbage etc. At the end of the day it will just be a unit as part of many units. I am guessing it will still be 1/40 like we spoke about earlier.

Duh 说:

There is only 2 towns that have 4 villages.

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What about the villages that are attached to castles?? Take Shiraz and immediate area as an example, it has 3 villages close by that are not actually part of the town, and then 4 villages that are part of the town. How do you account for that production?

Duh 说:

After a bit of discussion with Vades, we came to the conlusion that towns could just take so much from the villages that they can no longer support their population (while not paying them or paying them disproportionally). This would happen when a town is in recession (more consumption than production) and would allow for a somewhat synched development of towns and their villages.

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That seems like a sensible approach. It would also allow a player who was paying attention to then prop up the town food shortage long enough for the villages to increase production if they had been raided/looted. But still combat the indefinit upwards trend talked of earlier.

Duh 说:

To examplify: If i were to allow the player to reassign labor, and he decreased grain production to produce more apples, then bread production would have to be affected by that as well.

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Makes sense, just some sliders that can be changed to represent production with a total at the end of it showing how much of each is expected to be produced in that cycle. However does that not create issues relating to the denar cost of goods at each production cycle? You had mentioned before that you wanted to keep the denar value of production for 3000 people the same across all factions, if you allow the re-allocation of labour you will also change the value of production. Or is that not taken into account in this aspect of the calculation?

The food units are just that, 1 unit of food. These can be whatever you want.
For grain I see it as 1 handful/250gms of grain.
For sausages I see it as 1 sausage
For chicken as 1/6 of a chicken.
If that makes sense, if you get into stipulating the exact amount of any given product it does not appear to add any value, so I just approached it as consumption or serving units of a food item.

Right, I get the faction pool idea much better now, so not quite what I thought.

I see the point about making it too easy regarding village economies/growth, I guess it can be balanced during testing. From this side it seemed raids and recession mechanics for villages would possibly restrict town growth. The adjustment of the cycle speed would also help this.

Regarding the raw material price having an effect on the processed good, that would happen naturally wouldn't it??  If there is not much grain then the bakeries cannot purchase that much, means less bread is made which pushes up the bread price which then makes it worth more than the raw material. Or will the bakeries produce the same amount regardless ? If this is the case could you put some type of limit on the production meaning they will not purchase more grain than 95% of the sale value of the finished product? That would take away some of the danger of negative income but it would also tie the products together in a simple fashion.

Btw, sorry for that last post, some shocking typos in there.

So given that the army consumption will change as well, i would then lean towards the 20 adjustment factor with the basic rates of 1 food unit per person and costs about 4 denars. This would appear to balance the issue as even later game giving spending 40k to improve pravens prosperity might take some real justification. This will mean that the food carriage system will require a definite adjustment/rework to allow practical army maintenance. Over all cost is not really an issue even with the changes as it will still have limited affect on early game play and cost to feed army.

I thought about adjusting the bread and grain prices for sarranid and vaegir as they are desert and snow respectively and likely to be harder to produce gain/bread in those areas, but then that did not take into account expansion in new areas. So I figured that just change the other two prices, that way there are still trading options. Also sarranid have 4 unique items instead of the usual 3 per faction.

Re village growth cycle, I guess what I am saying is that looking the outline given, if a village is always producing goods, it should mean it is always gaining prosperity in a small way, therefore if the town it is supporting is small then it just grows much slower or stagnates. Especially if the excess food goes into a faction pool and is then purchased by traders, this would mean highly productive villages next to poor or Med towns would still maintain their prosperity more or less. The only time I could see it being an issue is when the faction loses too many towns or more than 1 if under prolonged siege(s) then there is the potential or have massive amounts of excess food with no place to get rid of it.
Then when you look wait pillage/looting of a town it does three thins, instant prosperity loss, loss of all goods currently in the market/production of village and also means it will not produce for some time. 2 or 3 raids in close succession would take quite some time to recover from. There for the constant upwards trend of village prosperity would make sense to balance this.
It would also make a string of raids deep into an enemy faction much more effective, especially if it is a large faction that is getting a lot of benefit from high production villagers further back.

Actually, if you change the adjustment factor to 20 you get 1000 units of food and around 4000 denars meaning each person in a town would eat 1 unit of food and cost 4 denars a day.

I can see two sides to having high numbers regarding food units.
1. It makes it much more costly to influence the towns growth but will also mean the army currently eats less food than the towns people. It might also create a situation where people could carry lots of food for 100's of days.
2. Lower food amounts, using say a factor of 50 or 25 would mean the towns folk eat a bit more than armies but not too much. Also it would mean the balance of cost and quantity would not be quite as much at odds with the current setup.

Then again these issues mainly relate to proposed vs current mechanics relating to food and you can always change them to balance.

Duh, that outline link in your first post, you ask a question about fief prosperity cycles in relation to this idea, do you think that will be a problem considering that fiefs do not have there own protection and they are much more regularly raided compared to towns and castles, ESP on the edge of a factions territory ??? Or is this a question for a later thread?

I have used the adjustment factor to bring down the total numbers to more manageable size.
Also the current numbers are a little more in line with the current army consumption just so we have a start point.
If the adjustment factor comes down then I think the cost will need to come down a bit as well, if you change it from 100 to 50 you get much closer to what you wanted numbers wise and doubles the cost.

Here is a drop box link team, let me know if it works. The blue cells are the ones you can change to alter consumption rates, price and pop.
http://db.tt/Ud8VPX79

OK, noob question, how do I add or post an excel spread sheet?? Or can I just email it direct to some one? Not the most pretty sheet in the world but it does the job.

I have done an excel sheet that has all the different factions with their foods and drink. Consumption has been set at semi reasonable rates and prices have been given. Each 1000 people eat 810 denars worth of food with the price system and bread and grain have the same price but the others range from 2- 14 in price per unit of food.

H.