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nilloc93 说:

still have fond memories of your artillery blasting me to smithereens.... over and over and over.....

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I am glad that you do. If you ever need a reminder just play in the Hardcore Friday LBs!

McEwanMaster77 说:

Willhelm 说:

McEwanMaster77 说:

I know what Munro would say on this thread, but I'll just say it before he does, as I mostly agree with him. At this point in time, the NW artillery system is...what's a good word? Oh: shallow.

Compared to the skill ceiling for regular bayonet melee, the cannon system is easy as a point and shoot arcade game. Yes, people might say you "need to learn how high to aim and how far to lead your target..." etc. etc. but overall, there's no true immersion in the system. While a new player can, under good guidance, learn how to effectively melee in, I would say, a month and a half, a new player can, under good guidance, learn how to learn artillery well in a matter of days. (Trust me, I've seen it.)

Now, I know there is not much we can do to radically change the system so it is more intensive and has a higher skill ceiling, due to the limitations of the M&B engine and the time frame of the devs' work. I just want there to be an artillery system where you can spend literally months perfecting your own routines and skills to create those critical shots.

Of course, the artillery can still be enjoyable sometimes. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=asfqRRgojqY#t=2173s

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Isn't that just fine? Learning to fight in melee combat is something you would train for years in real life, learning to point and shoot doesn't take that long. That's why the musket got so popular over melee and bows. Seems fair enough to me.

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Well to be blunt, that's a common misconception. Compared to the musket, artillery was complicated both in process and in practice, and took at least 6 men to even have a hope of running properly. Artillery pieces were much bigger and required careful calculation to a) Make sure the artillery piece didn't explode upon firing and b) Have the right amount of powder, elevation of barrel, fuse length, etc. to allow the shot landed somewhere close to the desired target, as artillery pieces were firing a much, much longer distance than the conventional musket.

That said, the cannon crew has to be skilled in every job required to run each artillery piece effectively and efficiently. Each person had to be aware of their routine and be able to perform it flawlessly, and not make mistakes. Otherwise, the rhythm would be erupted, and an accident might occur (i.e. exploding barrel, misfire, etc.). The duties of the regular crew aside, the commander of each gun had a much more critical role. He had to assess every second and aspect of the situation, including, but not limited to, the movements of the targets, the orders of the section commander, and the status of his own gun. Those considered, he had to have an acute understanding of mathematics including arithmetic, geometry, and trigonometry to know the angles, distance to target, wind speed, amount of powder, lead distance, elevation, and many other things.

These are the things that Munro and I want to see expressed, that will make the experience more immersive and make the skill of a good artillerist a unique and hard-won yet rewarding thing among the other skill sets of these games.

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^This. The artillery in MM was indeed less noob-friendly than NW, but I feel that the importance of artillery, as well as it's potential to cause massive amounts of damage, should not be so easy to learn and use. It should be harder, so that taking out whole lines would be more rewarding, and overall more fun to do if it is not as easy as it is right now.

cthulhu_ 说:

IMO the only challenge in being good at artillery is just range finding and adjusting for elevation and/or movement.

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In essence, the Howitzer.

Artillery in a nutshell:
Cannons = easy mode.
Howitzer = closest thing to MM artillery
Mortar = the most fun to use
Rocket = theoretically has the most potential of all artillery (if used correctly)

I have argued this point enough, and of course McEwan has restated it for me which is grand, but to put it simply, it is not hard to be a good artilleryman, you just need an understanding of the weapon you are using, and practice. What I like to do (which does make playing artillery more entertaining) is watch the angle of the barrel of the howitzer, and based on that, predict the trajectory and lead in order to accurately arc the shot to the right location (or in other words, completely ignore the crosshair). By watching the barrel instead of basing your shots off the crosshair, you can more easily determine exactly what angle to fire depending on the distance, and more often achieve accurate shots within the first try.

P.S. If anyone is interested in artillery and have any questions/need advice, I would be glad to help. I cannot say I have more credibility as an artilleryman than others, but I have been playing artillery for a long time and would be happy to share my notes.

While this information is indeed confidential, I will say that Thundersnow has directly influenced my ability to effectively use artillery throughout the history of my involvement in this community. How he has done that is the true secret that only those from another dimension would know. (Its all in the signature )

kpetschulat 说:

Munro 说:

An actual artillery system please?

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What do you mean?

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...

Captain_Canada 说:

Individual skill on this list in melee is quite high for the guys Ive heard of, but people arent taking into other accounts such as cavalry and my favourite (and Specialty) artillery. Although thankful for the recognition this vote isnt really going to get anyone anywhere, For example when reddit was switching from MM to NW we held a multi facet tourney which included, Sword duels, Bayonet duels, Pistol Duels, Jousting and Artillery. We never finished artillery but we established who was the best player we had in each category.

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Like many individuals have said before, this is a popularity contest, not a contest based on skill. They sure could categorize based on type of combat and what not, but its all based on biases made by individuals, without any true indicator to determine who is legitimately the most skilled.

Essentially this:

Who is the best NA cannoneer?
Canada- All of reddit votes for him
Munro - All of Marins vote for him
Joshly/Panda - All of 19te vote for him/her
etc. etc.

So, even in your "specialty" Canada, it wouldn't make much of a difference.


But hey, why the hell not? Lets see who "wins".

Um....

An actual artillery system please?

GF Friday LB. Next one: Skirmishers (No arty?)



Oh and Holland, I think you left something in your well, I keep hearing echoes of meowing throughout TS...

On behalf of me and the Marins Artillery; the best of luck my friend. We look forward to many glorious battles together! Vive la Garde Imperiale!

SilentMatthew 说:

Been looking over the footage I got in the "Pub Deaths" folder,  definitely gonna add Friday's best arty death(s):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asfqRRgojqY    @36:37 or whatever in the description

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Luv ya ;P

P.S. 5arge, I don't think the War Gods were watching over cAPSLOCK (http://youtu.be/asfqRRgojqY?t=16m33s), I am pretty sure it was the Cannon Gods exacting merciless vengeance on him. Either way he was punished

Napoleonic Wars came out, and the MM community made the transition pretty seamlessly (except for the Marins, they had to put up a fight first, it's their way).

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You are damn right we did. I am still saddened by this new artillery system

You are all fat.

Epicrules 说:

pfft. Who needs signatures? Apart from McEwan. And other people who need signatures. And stuff.

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Shut up fatty. And get a sig.



Love ya!

EgoisticPenny 说:

Well, I suppose you guys did alright on cannons.

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Hah... Funny joke.

Musicians and those who surrender = A waste of time and space. They provide essentially no help to the team, and go about ticking away the clock instead of finishing the round.

So yeah, kill them brutally without the slightest hint of mercy.

Vincenzo 说:

I lost you around:

"firearms are more accurate"
They are not.

we did not change any weapon accuracy or unit accuracy between MM or NW, so there cannot be any difirence at all... We also tested the old engine just now (before DLC release) and it had the exact same shooting error.

Musket + infantry unit shoot error in radians: 0.035000
Rifle + riflemen unit shoot error in radians: 0.019800

Testing on old engine gave exact same values.


Your arguments about melee make no sence at all to me?..

"because the melee system is not nearly as fast, smooth, or effective as MM."

Speed of weapons has not changed, how can it be slower? What is not smooth how what where?... A new upper attack is added which should make it more effective? :p ...


Spinning was just silly, I'm glad we reduced it, though people can still do it..


Artillery in a released game can't be as broken and weird as it was in MM, I think everyone is glad it is actually a proper aiming system now, though your right it makes aiming of a cannon easier, that is why we added more random to the cannonballs, if you have any realistic ideas how to balance artillery I'm open minded, but overall I don't think their really overpowered?


I just spend reading a whole rant about absolutely nothing constructive and it all seems to live between your ears.... (more accurate muskets?? wut.)

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Well, I am glad you have countered my arguments Vincenzo, but I don't think that is what the concept of this rant was about. I did already state that I have no insight into any of the system values, so sure, it may be my imagination when it comes to those points, but like I stated, something clearly isn't working here. For some reason, public multiplayer is not as fun as it used to be. There was a poll thread awhile back asking how long people would play NW each day. I think the majority said anywhere from <30 Minutes to 1-2 Hours. MM? People would play that all god damn day, and well into the night.

My argument is not on the specific values of the system, since I have no real information about it, it is more about why the game turned out like it did, and how we can make it more appealing to play. Besides, I put "Lets Discuss" in the title for a reason, because I want people to talk about the real issues and what should actually be fixed.

So, yes, I appreciate your criticism of my rant, but that isn't what the purpose of this thread is for. You can say my points are wrong, but I would suggest that instead of stopping there, you should provide some insight on how the system works so that me and other players can correctly gain an understanding of the sort, and then continue to read into and find out as to why the game is in its current state.

McEwanMaster77 说:

Can't say I disagree, but let's try not to turn this thread into a brutal comparison/ competition. There's enough of that already around. 

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Yes, I am not looking for which system is better, that is an opinion and an argument that can, and has been, countered. What I really want is for us as a community to realize the situation at hand, and work together to sort out what the real problems are. Lets talk about why LB's may have changed and why the game might not be as fun anymore. Lets find out exactly what part of the system is really affecting the actions of the community, and what will be the most beneficial solution to improve the gameplay of NW as a whole, not the individual system itself.

Having no insight into the actual details of the system, I may in fact be wrong. I appreciate any corrections, but I feel that there is a significant difference between NW shooting and MM shooting. I specifically believe that the rifles are indeed more accurate, but other than that I am speaking more specifically towards the physics system, which tends to give the bullet a "less random" path of travel, so to speak. But the main point is the fact that the new shooting system, if it is indeed present, may be causing such a reliance. But I may be off.

As for the behavior of the newer players in servers, I sincerely hope that they are adjusting, and some may assume that my judgement does not include the influence of the steam sale, but I have included the steam sale in my analysis. I am not sure about siege servers, I do hope that those events are working well, but for m experience in North American Linebattles, and the Official_US_1 Battle server, there seems to have been little to no significant increase in player skill overall. I do see more individuals standing out and getting kills, but that could be contributed to the steam sale and the increased amount of experienced Warband players buying the game. It is subjective, but we will find out sooner or later.

Another point: There is also a extremely noticeable amount of teamkilling since the beginning of NW. That does not mean that MM was not severe on that point, but the percentages are the significant aspect. It seems that most of the TKs on the servers are 90% accidental, 10% purposeful (rough assumption, do not judge). In MM, it seemed to be closer to 60% accidental, 40% purposeful. Usually, when someone Tked, it was often purposeful.

I think this skewed difference can also be attributed to the systems overall. Shooting would not be considered since it is variable. But the rough melee and the lack of skill in such an area makes it apparently easier to TK while attempting to kill an enemy. Artillery, since it is more accessible by the population, and much, much easier, would mean that there would be more TKs statistically, so I couldn't really consider that a factor, and most arty TK's are accidental anyway, unless it is apparent.

Either way, the excessive TKing, where did it come from? and what brought it about? I would say a combination of the reliance on shooting, as well as the unfamiliarity with the melee system, and possibly the slow and somewhat janky melee overall, would be one of the main factors in TKing while in melee. Other than that, it might indeed be easier to TK with ranged (I mean, just look at rockets), and the game does indeed offer more chances (explosives), so this may be just something we will need to adjust to. What do you guys think?