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Playing M&B for years now, I've reached the following conclusion.

The best faction is the faction that the player supports.
I've seen the Khergits almost destroyed without any help.
I've also seen them expand, also without any help.

I've seen them dominate with the player's help.

The same goes with all the factions.
The player supported kingdom rules.

Just my 2 cents.

StinkyMcGirk 说:

You can actually get 10 companions and have them happy; if companions have 1 like, 1 dislike, they neutralize.  Pick up everyone but the following six:

Marnid
Klethi
Deshavi
Firentis
Jeremus
Lezalit

Make them all similar in combat style like:

All crossbow/melee hybrids, all heavy horse archers, all heavy infantry, all lancers, all heavy anti-cavalry, etc.

Typically the options that work best with the A.I. work best with your companions, so it makes sense to give them a fast piercing weapon + shield, or a long range/ high damage/ xtra vs. shields weapon.  The A.I. also does amazing with the better crossbows out there, and if you think your companions have a lot of skill points to spare, then you can't beat masterwork warbows / 10 powerdraw.

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This a very good piece of advice.

HA HA HAHA !!!!!!!
This was the best !!!

Could'nt agree more.
We have a winner here.

He has excellent understanding of code and he can manipulate it at his will.
The scripts he made open a new era in Warband gameplay. It's not the same anymore.

I believe a lot of players would BADLY want the modded templates to import in game. (Including me).
Working 12h a day leaves you with little/no time to play.

In my humble opinion, Caba'drin should release a mod with his scripts, ready to be imported, to ease the people who don't know how, or haven't the time to implement his scripts. An easy job for someone, is another's nightmare.

Hip-hip-horray from me and much respect.

LBaeldeth 说:

This sounds like a great mod. I love the VHA for being such a versatile unit, and improving its performance is definitely a win ...

But now I'm terrified about facing the improved Khergits in actual battle!

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You know the old saying:
"Fight fire with fire"

@Caba'drin:
Thanks for the advice mate. Lead charge template will be. I strongly agree with  StinkyMcGirk, putting these excellent lines of code in your own mod. That will change the gameplay a lot, making it better in most ways. Thank you again!!

@StinkyMcGirk: Excellent report!! New hopes are rising from the horizon!!
That's the way Khergits should fight!!
I'd love to find out how they're fighting is siege defence!

LBaeldeth 说:

XT_Billy 说:

My only consideration is their use of the bow in sieges. If there is no melee/proximity check as you state, will they switch to swords when their opponent reaches them or will they continue to try shooting their bows at point blank range?

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Actually, I think that'd be a plus. I'm driven to distraction by the archers on the walls putting away their bows and taking out a sword to push around at the very back of the knot of infantry guarding the breach because the enemies on the ladder got within 20 feet. If this script makes them keep shooting instead, I'm getting it immediately.

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You really think so?
My first thought was: an archer shooting from the wall. The enemy gets within melee range.
The most simple sword is far faster than a bow.
The archer tries to shoot, gets hit, tries again, get hit again, and so on until he's killed.
And what an irony this is, seeing the sword at his waist and the shield at his back.

Since I took a brief look at Caba'drin's scripts, I think he could implement at least a minimum proximity check, so that the archer could use his melee armament when the enemy gets within 2-3 meters.

Only a real siege test will give us the answer in this.
You're right about the archer behavior, that would be good in conjunction with infantry, my consideration is specifically for the Khergit troops, since they all have ranged weapons.

@Caba'drin

One can never be too kind. There's always improvement to be made.

After the initial shock after reading your post, I was thinking that maybe people would like to have this extreme level of management over their army, but I think most would be really happy with your Lancer/Archer/Spearman (LAS) script. Mostly people who are fighting hard in battles, not the general/commander types.

In the case of Khergits, they do scatter a lot, you cannot see them all, so I suppose your LAS script would be perfect for them.
My only consideration is their use of the bow in sieges. If there is no melee/proximity check as you state, will they switch to swords when their opponent reaches them or will they continue to try shooting their bows at point blank range?

Excuse me if I ask too much, but my way of playing is to stick with a faction and recruit only units of that faction.
In the case of Khergits, the LAS script would make them real killers in the battlefield, but would be devastating in a siege defence, making them lambs for the slaughter.

The solution to my question is to utilise the LAS script and see for myself but I'm a little eager as my job obligations are too demanding for the time being, leaving me little time to play.

Thanks again.

CABA'DRIN !!!!!!!

I just can't believe what I see !!
I'm speechless of your talents at modding!!

What strategy are we talking about when you can have your troops use the right weapon?
And ordering them to use your weapon of choice AT YOUR COMMAND !!!
AWESOMENESS !!! 

I'm too excited to continue...

Only one question. Can these two scripts be combined together?

Thank you very much for your help. Your work will help many people to enjoy the game as it is intended.

You have my outmost respect. Have a very good night Sir Knight !!

Remedius 说:

Thanks Xt - I know you stated your strategy three times over but for me I've had such difficulty with - what should be - one of the best units in the game - I have found them to be frustrating and useless and at times suicidal ie a waste of time and effort. I think you have persuaded me to give them another go. I may even have a solid Huscarl/Vha army with the companions and myself as a small elite cavalry unit.

I'm now busting to give it a go but won't get to play for a few days - i will let you know the results.

Thanks very much to all - Caba'drin and Stinky for helpful information and mods and testing and especially Xt for your strategy - which may avoid my having to alter game code.

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Have fun mate !!

Taleworlds have created such a balanced game that everyone can defeat everyone with everything.
Imagine how much planning and testing is needed to create such units that cannot leave any faction lover unsatisfied.
Every faction has its own carefully created charecteristic units that can beat anything the enemy throws at them.

I believe the Khergits, the ultimate underdogs of Warband, deserve something better than "useless".
I like their tribal style and that made me search ways to use them effectively in battle.
The movie "Mongol" also, inspired me a lot. A definitely "must see". Epic !!!

I want to state that I really enjoy this very creative conversation we have here, with all of you gentlemen.
I even plan (in my mind for now) to write a thread with some kind of specific tactics I use, that work effectively against all types of faction troops, using only Khergit HAs/Lancers, as I do now.
Thanks for the pleasant time.

Cheers, Billy.

Here it is:

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,125233.msg3201995.html#msg3201995

This is possible at the Prophecy of Pendor, an excellent mod for M&B, currently porting to Warband.

I've read somewhere a change in a script that's giving you complete freedom to hop in a battle and support one of the fighting factions. Even the enemy ones. Even bandits!!

I surely would like the chance to befriend bandits in Warband, just like Prophecy of Pendor.
I'll try to find this, not sure if it works in Warband though...

You'll be glad you will. (I hope so. )
Good luck mate !!

@StinkyMcGirk

Excellent observation. They do seem to aim for the head.
And an excellent idea of having only bows/arrows.
They would definitely skirmish very well, but the problem with major battles/sieges still persists.

A Khergit HA is a balanced unit on foot, very good archer, relatively fast due to light/medium armor and able to hold his own in melee against many foot troops, except the most armored ones. Being balanced means that he has many uses while not being excellent in one way or another.

I do believe though that the script Caba'drin proposes, the one that gets them spawn with the bow, will definitely make them very capable in skirmishes. You may find the horse archers useless, but they really have their use. Even the distraction of the enemy and the formation breaking they do would be enough, even if they kill none.

I've won battles with 20-25 Khergit skirmishers with them killing 3-4 troops of the 50-60 enemies, with me just following and killing the cavalry chasing them, almost without opposition, losing 1-3 of our own. Once the cavalry is eliminated, the battle is won.

A horseman chasing a skirmisher. I chase the horseman. His shield pointed front to defend against the arrows.
Leaving him naked to my bow, and if he slows down, which he will, he's a sitting duck for my warspear. Often wounded from arrows, it's a one shot-one kill for a lot of enemies. The result being, the player, getting a whole lot of kills and experience, with minimum danger to himself and minimum casualties among his troops.

Everyone has his own style and way of playing I guess.

Caba`drin 说:

@XT:
First, your English is excellent.

Second, your above post is a very well thought out strategy.

Third, in regard to my skirmish script--yes, the horse archers will not fire when running away (they are effectively routing for a short period) which make it less than ideal. I've not found a solution for that yet...though it is why I noted that the script works much better with foot archers than horse archers. I appreciate you giving it a try and reporting your experience, though.

XT_Billy 说:

Tell the horse archers to hold position before they are within bow range.
Position yourself and your bodyguards slightly behind them.
When all the HA's start shooting, tell them to charge.
Since they are already shooting, they flank to the right, performing their magic.

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This can be accomplished without the micromanagement with the first "fix" I suggested in my post above: a script that forces horse archers to begin with their bows equipped rather than their light lance or scimitar side-arm. Effectively what your sequence above does is force this swap to bows...scripting it takes away the hastle...and then with their bows equipped they perform fairly well.

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Thank you for your kind words.
I've not used your script with foot archers, but i've read the replies on your thread.
I'd be grateful if you have a link on the above mentioned script.
I'm not finished yet testing your archery script. I will post feedback when able.

Remedius 说:

Xt - man - sounds too good to be true - so the vha start firing and then you tell em to charge and they flank right? Wicked!

Do they hit thier targets? Mine don't seem to - please read above posts. Cos if what you say is true then I will keep my vha as a permanent element in my army.

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You are very welcome to try this tactic. I use it all the time.

I like Khergits and I found myself being dissapointed with the horse combat in Warband (ALL horse combat not just the HAs), not from the player perspective, I got used to it quite easily, but the cavalry charge, once being powerful in M&B has become... it's difficult to describe.

I hate when ALL your cavalry charges the closest enemy with the result of stacking there, unable to move and the half of them dismounting. I tried, successfully I might say, leading my infantry on foot, exploiting those awful cavalry stacks but... I'm a motorcycle man. I feel at home with a horse.

So, Khergits with their fast horses and horse archery were my biggest threat. A really difficult opponent, raining arrows upon my troops while keeping their distance, fast with their swords, killers with their bows while on foot, and very difficult at sieges because almost all their troops have ranged.

I didn't really like them in M&B but in Warband they just rock!
My army, dear Remedius, consists of 75-80% of HAs, the rest being lancers.

I'm sure there are people who have better use for Khergits, but they do work for me just fine.
I don't recommend them though to people who like to kill 150 enemies in the field, losing 1-2 of their own troops.
They're not armored knights. They're fast, ranged cavalry.

I read a lot of people writing that Lancers are not useful, they die easily, not powerful etc.
Lancers are not the Khergits primary weapon of war. Horse archers are.
As are Huscarls for the Nords, Swadian knights, Rhodok sharpshooters etc.
It's very rewarding to use these troops as the majority of an army composition.

While the effect of 80 Nord veteran archers with 20 Huscarls as support may be good, one should consider the difference in the battlefield of 80 Huscalrs with 20 VAs as support. The same goes with Khergits. Lancers, while more heavily armored, are the support force here.

Answering your question, they DO hit their targets. Not as a foot archer would, but they do.
Basically, they occupy your enemies for you to kill, killing some, wounding many, so, you kill most already wounded troops with one hit.

Has anyone noticed that the Steppe Bandits perform better without guidance than Khergits?
They skirmish better than HAs, can't understand the reason why...

lord_Nelson 说:

Khergits is horse based army, so i think we need to have bigger and flatter battlefield, and since they can only shoot arrow on the left side, we need to plan flanking rout for them. Like when the enemy turn to charge the horse archer, the lancer will charge. too bad it's hard to order the lancer to charge at the right moment while leading the horse archer your self.

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I might have a solution for you.

First, make the horse archers a group.
Second, make the lancers a separate group.

I almost never release my small number of lancers from the duty of following/escorting me except when we have complete dominance on the battlefield.

When the battle starts, tell everyone to follow you. Find the enemy.
Tell the horse archers to hold position before they are within bow range.
Position yourself and your bodyguards slightly behind them.
When all the HA's start shooting, tell them to charge.
Since they are already shooting, they flank to the right, performing their magic.
This is the time when the player and it's lancer team get to business.

You can then chase the scattered enemy cavalry, killing them at your leisure (since they're pissed off with the HA), attack the disorganised infantry with hit and run (since their battle line formation is ruined) or decimate the (already occupied with your HA) archers/crossbowmen. Basically, eliminate the biggest threat.

Everything depends on the composition of the enemy army, the terrain and many other factors.
Each battlefield is unique so one tactic that works now may need a little change to work again.

It's a lot easier when fighting, let's say a knight heavy army. They are most easy to defeat. No joking.
They rush to kill your HAs, and while they're wounding them with arrows they get them to chase them, unsuccessfully, because they're much faster than the knights. You just follow with your bodyguard eliminating everyone that's left behind with ease. And if you miss someone, your lancer bodyguard take care of him.

This way, you get a lot of "easy" kills, earning experience yourself and your army.

A combined enemy needs a little more "strategy".
You have your HAs removing the threat of cavalry (chasing them) which will be taken care after. The enemy archers always prefer to shoot at you instead of your troops. Use this to your advantage, telling your lancers to move somewhere near them drawing their fire without casualties since they move, and not straight at them. Charge yourself and kill 2-3 archers while your lancers are circling. The whole group of archers will start shooting at you. As you circle around them, tell your lancers to follow you and when they're close to the enemy archers charge them and watch how easily they die. You may charge into the fray yourself too.

Then you can concentrate on the MUCH weaker cavalry with the lancers following you and mopping up whoever escapes your warspear. The remaining infantry usually is scattered, making them easy prey for the left over arrows of your HAs and the (always following you) lancer bodyguard.

This is just a little example of the real power the Khergits have, if used right.
A player which is used to have an army of knights, orders charge and watches the slaughter (when they're not stacked together unable to move ) may find the Khergits weak, but they're not.

Hell, I definitely like them, I could write pages and pages talking about them.
Please forgive any errors, English is not my native language.

Well, i've "modded" the archers with Caba'drin's script.
Their behaviour is a little "strange".
I played the game only Friday evening, I need much more time to test them in battle.

They seem to work right trying to keep their distance, but i've noticed that their arrow shooting is much less now.
They do try to evade the enemy cavalry that's chasing them, most of the time succeeding, but they also seem to run away without shooting arrows. Against only infantry they are killers, but so they were if used like I suggested in the first page.

I've created a cheated character with tons of strenth and ironflesh in order to watch them perform without worrying of the enemies always chasing me. I also cheat by upgrading them directly from recruits to HA/VHA.

I will test them again and report back.

Caba`drin 说:

Remedius 说:

Until there is an 'avoid melee' command option the Khergits will remain second rate unless your prepared to babysit.

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XT_Billy 说:

Yes, the "avoid melee" command would be perfect.
It would make these warriors even more deadly on the battlefield.

I've read somewhere in the mod section of a mate who managed to get the Kerghits completely avoid melee until they have shot all of their arrows. This might not be perfect, but it's a VERY good start.

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Horse archers kind of do this if you are sure to put them in a separate division from lancers/other cav so your orders to your heavy cavalry don't go to the Horse Archers, too.

There are already two improvements available: 1) a script to force horse archers to start with their bows when spawned (pairing this with keeping them separate from heavy cav works fairly well) or 2) the "skirmish" order script I've written (though it admittedly works a bit better for foot archers skirmishing than horse archers).

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Well, you have my respect Sir Knight!
I hadn't seen your work on this. I've seen something like this implemented in a mod which... ehmmm... I don't remember.
I'll test this thoroughly and report after the weekend.
Thanks for your work and your posting here.

Is Remedius reading this?

Yes, the "avoid melee" command would be perfect.
It would make these warriors even more deadly on the battlefield.

I've read somewhere in the mod section of a mate who managed to get the Kerghits completely avoid melee until they have shot all of their arrows. This might not be perfect, but it's a VERY good start.