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You kind of have to kill those giant armies, otherwise they will become a persistent problem. Beat them in a siege if you don't have appropriate units (read: lots of heavy cavalry units) to run them down in the field. If you can't beat them in a siege, then you didn't start with enough units. But you do need to beat them. And if you want to prevent them from respawning and building up bigger armies, take them prisoner. They will eventually whittle down.

Myself, I usually prepare for any serious campaign by making sure I have around 400 elite units of different types (heavy infantry, heavy cavalry) to swap out in my capital. It sounds like you were nowhere near prepared for the enemy response.

My worst game so far was when I re-captured Wercheg for the Nords (from the Vaegirs). I had gone too fast and had not built up enough renown or troops, and when Ragnar wouldn't give me Wercheg, I rebelled, since I had already stocked the garrison with a lot of troops in the few days after I had captured it. This brought a huge response from the Nords, and the Vaegirs piled on. I barely survived two 1500 man sieges (luckily the first attacking army had a lot of prisoners that I was able to release, and that gave me enough troops to hold against the Vaegirs). But then I took the lords prisoner and hunted down survivors. I slowly pushed out from there and forced a ceasefire after seizing Rivacheg and the intervening castles.

Beating a garrison isn't the point; you're doing that so you have a castle that acts like a magnet for the enemy army, so you can drag their troops to one place and kill them all.

It sounds like your right to rule was very low? The rival kings will not recognize you as an equal and eagerly declare war on and attack you if your RtR is low (which can be utilized to your advantage sometimes, but clearly not in this case).

It seems you're in a really bad spot. Unless you're sitting on a mountain of denars, it's going to be pretty tough trying to raise enough troops to beat back the enemy.

If you have no remaining elite troops in garrison, then you made a huge mistake giving up Veluca. Not even getting into how much more profitable having a city versus 2 castles is, but those 100 huscarls could have butchered the invading Sarranids, if you gave them a chance to by joining and fighting the battle yourself. Autocalc slaughters elite troops at a really bad rate.

In regards to beating back the enemy; you're going at it in a particularly inefficient way. It doesn't matter if you can't afford to garrison a castle after you take it; if you leave one soldier in the castle, the enemy will have to stop and siege it. This gives you time to go around and gather recruits, which you should be putting into you most power fief (of course you lost Veluca, so you're in a bad spot there). If the enemy takes a castle that only has one guy defending it, they will also leave almost nothing as garrison, so you can take it back very easily (assuming it doesn't require you to build a siege tower). Doing this, you draw the enemy to one spot, where you can also join the defense of that castle and whittle down the enemy, or attack incoming lords trying to join the marshal, assuming you have a fast enough party due to cavalry.

It seems that your first mistake was starting your rebellion with not enough elite troops to carry you through; and then the other mistake was letting an enemy take out your reserve of elite troops, along with your best fief.

1500 soldiers is a pretty standard response for a kingdom assuming the marshal is able to gather the lords.

What you haven't told us is what your kingdom's resources are. How many cities and castles do you and your vassals have, and how many elite troops do you have stashed away in your garrisons to cycle out. When dealing with 1500 troop armies, I find the best thing to do is to let them siege whatever they want to, but go and garrison the target with an army full of Huscarls. Dismounted troops in an army vs Nord defenders behind walls is a joke.

If 100 elite troops is all you have to draw on, then you aren't prepared to start a kingdom yet. Likewise, if 100 troops is your current party limit, I would suggest getting more renown to increase that maximum party size.

Jhessail 说:

I rather meant that should I get married to a lord or become a lady first, when to pledge my support to a king or a claimant and so on.

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I find the best way to proceed is to get an idea of the personalities of the lords and take a look at their distribution amongst the starting kingdoms. You want to be thinking about how you will get the best lords to your kingdom; those being the Upstanding and Good-Natured lords. These guys are extremely loyal and won't be randomly defecting to other kingdoms. So your ideal target husband is:

a) Good-Natured (Upstanding lords won't want to marry a warrior lady)
b) Owns a castle (best that he starts with one so you are guaranteed an extra property coming your way
c) In a faction that DOES NOT have a lot of other Good-Natured or Upstanding lords

Your husband will always join your revolt if he likes you enough, which is pretty easy to accomplish with Good-Natured lords, so that's one freebie lord that would otherwise be very hard to pry away from his liege.

It is important to not have a lot of good lords on the faction you're going to join, because the only two ways that good lords lose relation with their liege is by being defeated in combat, or by seeing their fellow lords be indicted for treason. The treason thing is a wash, because mid-game, a lot of lords will be bouncing around  (also, the indicted lord's properties will usually be given to the good lords, cancelling out the loss there). The one thing you can control though, is personally beating the snot out of the good lords, to lower their relationship with their liege, thereby making it easier to convince them to defect to you when the time comes.

With those things in mind, you want to do your typical leveling up, equipping yourself, setting up enterprises, and gathering companions as an independent/mercenary while you scout out the potential best husband.  Then join the faction of your husband, get married, and start carving out some juicy cities for yourself. With enough renown, it shouldn't be too hard to get at least two assigned to you. Try to not severely weaken one faction to the point where it can be eliminated by someone else until you have actually rebelled and are in a position to find the good lords that would be dispersed, and bring them into your kingdom.

You can use the claimant if you want; this provides the advantage of being able to use faction-specific troops to fight against that faction without taking the penalty to morale. But you would have to convince your husband to join the rebellion; he won't join without a persuasion check. I find it easier to collect some elite troops that don't belong to your faction and rebel using those troops.

I'm glad to see that the Rhodoks will be getting two new T4 units. I just got into this mod, but from mechanics of unit recruitment, it was a gigantic pain playing as the Rhodoks, as you had to hope your original T3 Pikemen could survive to become Elite, in order get Veterans (unless of course there's a better way to do this and I'm just playing it all wrong). The Pavisier will make a nice counter to the hordes of fairly affordable T4 Footmen that Swadia can throw against the Rhodoks.

I remember reading somewhere that if you get too much renown as a female character, lords will become too intimidated by that to want to marry you. I've never tried or tested that though, and I don't know what the rejection lines that are given say. Probably not much help in that regard, sorry.

Perhaps you could try swearing fealty to another king and courting the lords of that faction? Be sure to assign all the garrisoned properties to yourself first before doing this though. Also, you will most likely lose your former companions and have a tough time getting them back as vassals.

Is this even possible? Won't you run out of food before the enemy does? Or if you have few enough troops to not consume all your food, won't you probably get attacked by roaming armies belonging to the castle's faction?

Are you playing vanilla? There's no way to get rid of it in the base game, other than hoping it's associated castle/town gets taken by the enemy.

If you're running the Diplomacy mod, which is highly recommended, you can give it back to the king for a relationship penalty.

AI lords don't need Prisoner Management. They will happily carry away the entire garrison of a town if you attack it with blunt weapon troops. They'll obviously be REALLY SLOW until they dump those guys off, but they don't seem to have a prisoner limit.

I'm also unsure about the value of Leadership. AI lords also don't seem to have a cap on the number of troops they can drag around (and they certainly don't have to worry about morale). They WILL suffer attrition if they get overloaded and can't afford the wages for the troops though. It seems that the number of properties a lord has is more important for ensuring they can support a good army.

Just a small consideration about the siege tower. While it's true that you need to build a siege tower in order to take Dhirim, I don't think the AI requires increased time to actually build the siege tower. I often use the trick of getting one of my lords to start the siege against a siege tower property; when asked, he'll be ready to start the assault in 8 hours, which you can order, then join to subvert needing to wait a day for a siege tower. I'm unsure if the AI abuses this ability as well (since they never seem to attack after 8 hours anyways), but it might be worth keeping in mind that they don't have to wait the full day.

Dhirim makes a challenging first town to own. However, it has strategic and financial importance. All towns make the majority of their cash off of tariffs, so a town behind the lines wouldn't necessarily be better off in that case. Dhirim is more susceptible to looting and being attacked, but if you use it as a repository for your elite troops (which is practical because of it's central location; you'll always be able to replenish/swap your best troops with the minimum amount of travel) then your overall expenses are actually lower, as having your best troops as garrison in towns that are not going to be attacked is not really an economical use of troops; you can use trash recruits or Swadian Militia in those towns with no loss of effectiveness. Having your best troops on defense where the enemy is actually attacking gives you a better chance to win the fight. As well, even if they're not besieging the town, they're probably raiding the nearby villages, so you can grab appropriate troops and go and run them down.

Later on, if you're in charge of a faction, it's also great to own for the aforementioned reasons, and so you can base your court there, which enables you to quickly get back to deal with the affairs of the court.

As a first town, it'll be painful to hold though, because you won't yet have the troop and resource base to comfortably defend it.

JosieJ 说:

Hmm, so it seems my advice in another thread to marry a calculating lord if you want to go independent was correct after all!

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I'll have to revise my statement about marrying a good-natured lord. It's obviously not ideal if you are speedrunning; you don't have the time to build up honour and relations, and get your right to rule up. I've never done a speed run, so I can't really comment on the combination of factors that influence a husband's decision to defect. I would imagine it would have to do with relationship with you (which still makes good-natured lords the best, as their relationship is easiest to raise) and your right to rule. The husband's relationship with his liege might also have some affect. I suppose some testing is required.

I still think it is accurate to say that a good-natured lord makes the best husband (because he also makes the best vassal, alongside upstanding lords), but a speedrun doesn't have time for relationship building and honour farming. Such that in that case, I don't think it would really matter who you marry (or if you even marry at all).

JosieJ 说:

One other thing that's probably worth mentioning is that male characters generally get a fief--the poorest, most remote village in the faction, but still--when they join a faction, but female characters don't unless their renown is very high.  It helps to take a castle (or town, of course, but castle is easier) before joining the faction--you get to keep it after joining.

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Do you know what the renown needed for a female character to get the village is? I ask, because I've always been granted a fief (the poor, lousy, looted one) when joining a faction, even when the king specifically says he can't. I had a feeling it was tied to renown, but I'm not sure how much it is, because I usually make sure I'm in a decent position financially (and therefore renown wise) before joining a faction (so I can afford enough troops to take out that first town). I always thought it was a Diplomacy thing that my female characters would still get the lousy village.  The obvious problem with being assigned these villages is that they give terrible rents, get looted and give you controversy if you don't defend them, and raise your tax inefficiency for almost no gain. So I would actually prefer if the king would keep his word and NOT give me a fief.

JosieJ 说:

Plus, don't AI lords tend to keep their castle garrisons at a certain population level?  The only time I stuffed a lot of troops into my husband's garrison, he kept taking them out to keep the population at around a certain level.  I never tried this in any other games, so I don't know if it was unique to that game or not.

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Actually not 100% sure about the castle garrisons; I've only ever overstocked a castle once, and that was only temporary. Lord troop convoys will bleed down to the amount that can be support by fiefs + renown (the formula of which I am not sure of) if you overload them; easiest to see this by conquering some place that has 200+ prisoners in it, and bringing another lord along for the fight; any prisoners you don't free will join that lord's convoy, which can lead to hilariously large armies. Obviously this specific bit of information isn't as useful as garrisoning in your husband's castle, but it can at least be used to attack annoying Rhodok castles without dirtying your hands yourself (and without having to argue with your marshal).

JosieJ 说:

Edit: Oh, and on an unrelated topic, I found out you don't always have to be at least at 20 relation with a prospective groom.  In my current game, I proposed at around 4 relation and he said he'd "consider it."  So he didn't reject me out of hand, but didn't accept right away, either.  At around 15 relation, I went to him to ask for another task and he asked for my hand!  I'm putting him off to keep my options open--I wonder how long I can get away with that?! 

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I think you can actually do that indefinitely. I admit to doing that once to probably half a dozen lords one game; the previous game had a really small selection of eligible lords, and I wanted to prevent them from looking at other ladies while I scouted out the best prospect.

JosieJ 说:

See, I did not know that--I thought it'd be easier to convince calculating lords to defect from their original faction!  You learn something new every day!

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Yeah, it's been a few games since I've used the specific option, but if you find yourself having defected because your liege wouldn't grant you a fief you captured, your husband initially won't join you. However, you only need to find him for a private talk and use the unique conversation option telling him to defect to you, and he'll join you with no persuasion check or reason needed. I know this decision works even with non-good natured lords who I only had mid-20s relationship with, but I'm unsure of how low you can have your marital relations be to have this work . I've never married a lord and then intentionally trashed relations to check (not even sure if it's possible to do this; maybe by defecting and repeatedly fighting and capturing your husband?).

JosieJ 说:

Yup, all you have to say is you should be queen or he should be king and you'll rebel together with all your castles/towns and any associated villages.  I've never tried to convince a husband that he should be king, though--I'm way too much of a control freak and like to make the decisions for my faction myself!

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Have you used the Diplomacy mod option to marry a claimant? It's much like that but you're still playing the red player faction. Essentially the kingdom is AI run, but you can make all the normal decisions you could normally make when running the kingdom. Note that it's the relationship of the vassals to your spouse that matters. It's possibly worth trying at least once, perhaps as a handicap.

bakters 说:

Thanks for the reply.  Two definitive answers confirming each other means that it actually works, and you can offload 500 knights into you husband's castle and then not pay a dime for their upkeep. 

With this info it surely is possible to improve on my previous time. (Assuming I would play well, which obviously I can't do after a long break.)

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Offloading a huge number of troops into your husband's castle works wonders, but check to make sure that he has a good relationship with his liege; if this is you, then it isn't a problem, but if you're both still someone's vassals, it could be. I've had a Cunning husband defect from the faction, taking the castle with him. This is obviously an issue because you can't get your troops out if he's part of a different faction. Worse still, he could get indicted for treason; at that point, you'll probably never get those troops back and will most likely end up fighting them even. This is yet another reason why I always recommend marrying a Good Natured lord, as they'll almost never have a bad enough relationship with their liege to want to defect/get indicted.

A few other thoughts to build on what JosieJ said...

1. I would argue that Good Natured lords are the BEST option to marry, even if you are going to start your own kingdom. Good Natured and Upstanding lords are notoriously loyal, and the make the best vassals; on the flipside they are notoriously hard to pull away from their factions, barring destruction of their home faction or other outrageous events that would cause them to lose a lot of relationship with their liege (rare). Your husband will ALWAYS defect to the faction you lead, so that's one free lord that makes an excellent vassal. It's also easy to gain relationship points with them, because you'll get one relationship point for every 3 points of honour you have, and being an honourable lord is generally easier in the long run than being dishonourable. If your honour hits 300, Good Natured and Upstanding lords that you've never even met will have locked 100 relationship with you.

2. There is no courting like with daughters. You don't need to learn the poems, whether the lord will accept a marriage proposal is based entirely off chemistry (yes/no) and relationship, which is raised in the same way you would raise it if you were a male character.

3. Normally to start your own faction when you are part of an existing one, you have to wait to be denied a fief that you captured before you can rebel and keep your cities/towns. But if you have a husband, you can start the rebellion whenever you want by talking to him privately and asking him to rethink his allegiance. You and he will then rebel and form your own faction, and you can either lead it, or lead it jointly with him, which means the AI will do it's usual shenanigans because he gets to make decisions (not recommended unless you want to spice up your game). I'm unsure if there is a Right to Rule requirement for this to go through; normally by the time you're in a good enough position to rebel and survive, you will have a decent amount of RTR accumulated already.

Always a good idea to leave massed numbers of low level troops in fiefs that you own. The AI doesn't take into account the strength of the troops stationed there (and neither does the auto-calc I think), so if you had filled the town with a ton of Swadian recruits or militia, they would have held out longer.

I've used Dhirim as my capital many times; I generally have 800ish troops stationed there at any given time. A permanent junk garrison of 400, and the rest being specialty troops (cavalry for running people down in the field, heavy infantry and sharpshooters for taking tough fiefs, etc).

You should also utilize friendly lords to start the siege for you, as they only take 9 hours to build the siege tower. This is, of course, assuming you are a sovereign monarch (so you get to assign the fief yourself afterwards. Otherwise, the lord who starts the siege gets the credit).

DarkShogun417 说:

thank you very much. i've been trying to besiege enemy settlements with siege towers but my lords always abandon me before I can build them...

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No problem. Just be sure to talk to the lord after the 9 hours is up, and tell them "You and I can take X.". They'll either say "Very well, to the walls!" or tell you how much time they need to finish the siege tower.