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Fantastic! The Haradrim are my favourite.

Best of luck to you, E.

Seems like a smart move to me.

ealabor 说:

You ever read Catcher in the Rye by chance?

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Well hopefully the Carians should bear the brunt of the line infantry work in the south along with the Lycians since they are the most vigourously attested. The southern satrapies had access to more soldiers who were infantry orientated so we should see Carians forming the core with Lycians, Persians and Lydians in supporting roles.

However in the north, Pharnabazus did not have access to as many melee orientated infantry so the northern lords should field much more cavalry/skirmisher orientated armies. With such heavy cavalry at their disposal the north Persian lords may prove to be a tough nut to crack.


However, there are 9 villages and three towns in our Asia minor that have a Greek culture so a Persian player will also have access to Greek hoplites here as well as in taverns to fill out the infantry role. In fact a great deal of the "Persians relied on Greek soldiers" line of thinking is founded on the western satrapies use of the nearby and useful Greeks. 

Rez, do the Persians not use the iconic rectangular wicker shield in this period? I'm a bit worried for what they'll use as the bread and butter line infantry, since it seems like only the Guardsmen, White Shields, and Lydian Spearmen have the shields that could stand up (if briefly) to a Phalanx. I'm not sure how protective the crescent shield (name eludes me) would be in a line infantry role.

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At this point the rectangular spara appears to have fallen out of favour and been replaced by the crescent taka, at least in the west. In fact it isn't ever described and exceedingly rarely depicted (on Attic pottery) after the invasions of Greece were over. If the shield did carry on in service it would have been within actual imperial armies not our provincial troops. Since no full regiment of Persian infantry is recorded in the west during our time period I have restricted the list to only include Persian light infantry since the majority of Persians and Iranians in the west were cavalry colonists or retainers serving in the nobility's cavalry.

Xenophons mention of only a few Persians rounded up for infantry service in the area to face Dercyllidas' invasion implies only light service as bodyguards and skirmishers. The high proportion of attic pottery depicting the taka and skirmishing Persians tends to confirm this. In reality, actual Persians were in the minority in these satrapies and where they were in great numbers they served on horseback.

The problem with the spara is that it is a composite archery formation tool and without the formation its somewhat useless. even in a straight line infantry formation the crescent taka carries the edge because of its much more solid wooden construction. So to cut it all down to one sentence - Since there were no persian infantry regiments operating in asia minor we can't tool anyone up as a proper Persian infantryman.

And did they not use shields from horseback?

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In 88 Sekunda suggested that some Persian cavalry used shields but he based this only on depictions of amazon warriors with wicker taka on horseback. In fact there are no depictions of Persian cavalry with shields (despite something of a wealth of cavalry images) and there are no literary references.

I can't help in much detail for Carthage but I think have some Phoenician reference images lying around. Unfortunately I'm away from home this christmas and don't have my books to hand. I'll see what I can dig up though.

2 day hangover. Not good.

I reckon the Median helmet might be more trouble than the little bit of extra variety its worth.

In the end I think we would be better off giving him the same helmet as the Median Colonist. That way we aren't taking any gambles.

Edit: Everything else looks great though.

Its a mix. If you look on page 2 there's a full list detailing everyone's equipment. Its mostly Javelins but the Hyrcanians have bows.

Sorry I've been away, busy couple of days.


Make the Lydian helmet with cheek pieces as they are in the reconstruction. Make the Median helmet without. Merlkir and I were just discussing the perplexing nature of the advanced construction method.

To be honest I really don't have any answers yet.

@ Merlkir - do you mean the shape or the fact that its riveted segments of iron? Because the shape does indeed remind me of Sassanian helmets but segmented iron riveted together is attested by the helmet found at the base of the acropolis of Sardis.



Shown in this reconstruction. This one's odd too since it looks like a spangenhelm but its firmly dated to our period.

@ Lynores - The WB scenes don't appear to be too crazy but still, only use them for Celaenae, Dascylium, Comania, Parthenion, Bargasa and Araxa.

@ Merlkir - I went with a helmet rather than a cap because it doesn't match the shape of the usual Median cap, in that it arches higher in a deflective form, and it has rivet patterning. I could be wrong of course but I'm fairly certain. The trouble is, as you say, that we don't have a surviving helmet to match it to.

@ Lynores - I have to go back and double check exactly how Lawrence of Arabia the WB Sarranid scenes are but my gut reaction is that the Persian towns in the mod would have been far closer in resemblence to a Greek town than an eastern one.

The only towns that might require an eastern flavour are Dascylium and Celaenae since they actually had hefty Achaemenid structures. It would be nice to have the colonist villages appear more eastern as well since they are essentially transplanted eastern communities. (That would be Bargasa, Araxa, Parthenion and Comania).


I'll check back later after I've had a look at the WB props. 

Bare footed soldiers is by and large far more common in Greece. Saying that though we should make sure the Lycians and Carians are either barefooted or sandalled in the same way that Greek troops are.


@Lynores - As far as I know, the second helmet was without cheek guards. Looking forward to seeing the results!

Wow that picture quality is amazing! I'll be needing that for the Medians.

Speaking of which -

Median colonist:



You can copy this guy exactly except for the neck torque. Leave that out.


Median Cavalry:

For this guy you just need to swap the head dress with this helmet -



Go with iron for the construction.

Median Heavy cavalry:

For these guys I want to bring in some armoured trousers since they turned up frequently enough.



He just needs a little modification. Give him this iron helmet with bronze decoration -




I also thought you might want to use this as a lord's non-war costume:



Just change the colours for variation. Note the cape he wears has sleeves.

And I think thats that for references.

Carian recruit:

Same old drill for these recruits. Plain tunics, no trousers, no headgear, soft shoes and simple spear or sword.

Carian Militia:

These guys can look the same as the recruits but for equipment give them a cowhide shield, javelins and a spear.

Carian Spearman:

Very close to being hoplites.

Keep the plain tunic but give him a twisted headband like the one you did for the Hyrcanians. This one will have to be a different colour, I suggest yellow.

For equipment give him any old aspis and a Doru spear.

Carian White shield:

The Carian infantry are identified not only as hoplites but also as some of the innovators for hoplite equipment. Given their prominent role in Persian forces and their long tradition of fighting pitched infantry battles I see no reason for the Whiteshields not to match the average Greek phalanx.

They are to be equipped as hoplites so I thought why not just use the ones we made from RoP as a reference.



We can't just copy it outright though. As you might have guessed the name 'Whiteshield' means they carry shields that have been painted bright white.

Also I imagine giving them a sicklesword as a secondary weapon will turn them into insane killing machines in M&B so best just leave them with a spear. His plume is a yellowish white as well BTW. I know its hard to make out. Our man is wearing leggings in the picture but we want to remove those so he is only wearing greaves.

hmm Lydian spearman armor looks familiar to one from Alexander movie

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Heh, I hadn't noticed that they used the same reference.

Those units will be a pleasure to make. Some sexy stuff, bro. So, what does that leave us now? Lykians, Medians and Carians, right?

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Cool mate. The Lykians are the Lycians though. I'm using anglicised names for everything now and i'll change the OP accordingly. I have decided to remove the Lycian cavalry from the list since the Lycian horsemen were so Persianised they would basically be indistinguishable from the Persian cav we already have.

I presume I can give the first units the overhand grip then, as shown in the reference?

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I would give the overhand grip to every spearman in the Persian roster. Sorry I forgot to mention that.

Is that supposed to be a red plume, or is it painted over bronze like the shield's extension?

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Ah, well the reference is reconstructed from a rock relief and I think the artist has mistakenly taken the rigid carving to be a bronze fin rather than the plume its far more likely to be in my opinion.

So go with a plume.

The Lycians

Nice and easy since I have a few good references.

Lycian recruit:



Here's our Lycian template. For the recruit's we should remove the cloak, the short sword and the shield but leave the short spear. Note the short leggings he wears on his shins.

Lycian Militia:

Ok this time around give him the cape, the xiphos and the short spear but no shield


Lycian Spearman:

Simply copy the reference. The shield is a standard aspis.


Lycian infantry:

The sickle sword was very popular in southern anatolia and seems to have been a particularly effective anti-cavalry weapon.



Again, just follow the reference.


Lycian Swordsman:



Again, just follow the reference. But also give him the same javelin that the Pisidian mercenary has.



The Lydians

Not quite as easy but still fairly simple.

Lydian recruit:



Our recruit only needs a plain white tunic without trousers, soft shoes and the folded cloth head gear from the relief. For equipment he can have a short spear or short sword.

For the head dress just make it grey with black stripes.

Lydian Militia:

Basically keep this guy the same as the recruit but add in a cowhide shield like the Phrygians have. Also stripe his tunic horizontally with red the way that the tunic sleeve in the relief is striped. (Ignore the wrap he's wearing).


Lydian infantry:

Keep the same striped tunic but add in this helmet:


Its made from segments of iron and the decorated strips are bronze. We also need to give him an aspis shield.

Lydian Spearman:



Now the reason I'm not calling this guy a Lydian Hoplite is that we don't have anything to really go on when it comes to identifying a Lydian phalanx. Coupled with the fact that the Persians never appeared to have relied upon Lydian infantry it would seem that, whilst undoubtedly fightng in close order, it would not be correct to put these spearmen on par with a phalanx from mainland Greece.

He's wearing the same helmet as the Lydian infantry but this time attatch a red crest. Note that he wears short leggings rather than greaves, after the tomb of Darius relief.

The shield has a specifically Lydian symbol emblazoned on it so we should probably call this a ''Lydian Aspis'''.

I can't give you any specifics on colouring this guy in but from what little Lydian depictions I can find reds and pale blue seem to be prominent.

Lydian Skirmisher:



Ok replace the sock on this guy's head with the Lydian headgear you made for the recruit. Then just give him a cowhide shield, a short sword and some javelins.


Lydian Archer

Same deal as with the skirmisher for his clothes but for his equipment he just needs a bow, arrows and short sword.

Here's another image with some colour.

Awesome, i'll do the references for Lycia, Caria and Lydia tomorrow.

Persian Lords and their territories

Dascylium - Pharnabazus
Dascylitis - Mithrobates
Prusa - Spithridates
Modra - Megabates
Scepsis - Asidates
Argiza - Arnapus
Parthenion - Bagoas
Comania - Rathines
Celaenae - Ariobarzanes
Azani - Datames
Peltae - Martyia
Apollonia - Itamenes
Sardis - Pissuthnes
Smyrna - Amorges
Attalia - Rhoesaces
Thyatira - Stages
Magnesia - Tissaphernes
Tralles - Megabazus
Mylasa - Ariaeus
Bargasa - Arsaces
Xanthus - Kheriga
Balbura - Hydarnes
Araxa - Satibarzanes
Myrae - Mazaeus

Awesome. Shall I place as many lords as there are towns and villages?


Also, thinking about it, it would be better to give the Pisidian bandit a Phrygian cap. I forgot the hat in that ref picture is actually Cappadocian.