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I hope it's okay if I cross-post this here, as the sub-forum of the Diplomacy mod is quite deserted. So this is about a bug in Diplomacy for 1.173. I hope someone can offer a fix for this for me. Also as far as I know many mods use Diplomacy as their base so this bug report might be important to some other modders as well.

Thorkel 说:

Hello! Started up Warband again after a very long time and decided to use the Diplomacy mod for the first campaign. I've run into a minor, quite hidden bug that breaks the game in a significant way. Luckily I developed a habit of saving very often so I can submit a very precise bug report.

The bug is with the 'Capture Prisoners' quest that lords give you when you are a mercenary for their faction. More precisely with the alternative solution to it introduced by Diplomacy. You can ask a lord in a castle to sell you the prisoners instead of capturing them yourself but there must be some error in the code there, because as soon as you click that dialog the 'Recruit prisoners' game menu gets broken and you can't recruit prisoners into your party any more.

https://imgur.com/HL7rAIT

When I click 'I need some X as prisoner', the prisoner recruiting menu breaks even if I don't take the lord's offer in the end and back out with 'Never mind.' on the next screen. Afterwards funny stuff like these happen:
https://imgur.com/vMzzeps
https://imgur.com/KqAGTPD

I can't mod at all but took a look into the module system and my guess is that probably some code with this quest mishandles the s18 variable(?). I found this line in module_game_menus.py:

("camp_recruit_prisoners",0,
  "You offer your prisoners freedom if they agree to join you as soldiers. {s18}",

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I checked where s18 is also used and it's used in the scouting missions of companions to show the name of the kingdom they can gather intel on; it's also used to show text when recruiting volunteers in villages and for some dialog where lords name their rivals.  After this bug rears its head I can't recruit from prisoners any more as instead of showing the number and type of troops willing to join me it shows a lord's name, a kingdom's name or the villager recruiting text depending on where s18 was used latest. For the example images above I recruited villagers / spoke to Artimenner about gathering intel in Durquba right before entering the 'Recruit prisoners' page through the Camp menu.

Can this be fixed mid game by editing some .py file or do I have to go back to the latest uncorrupted save and avoid this quest (or at least this option inside it) for the rest of my current playthrough?

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The source for the Diplomacy mod is available here at the end of the opening post if someone wants to take a look into this:
https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,324014.0.html

Hello! Started up Warband again after a very long time and decided to use the Diplomacy mod for the first campaign. I've run into a minor, quite hidden bug that breaks the game in a significant way. Luckily I developed a habit of saving very often so I can submit a very precise bug report.

The bug is with the 'Capture Prisoners' quest that lords give you when you are a mercenary for their faction. More precisely with the alternative solution to it introduced by Diplomacy. You can ask a lord in a castle to sell you the prisoners instead of capturing them yourself but there must be some error in the code there, because as soon as you click that dialog the 'Recruit prisoners' game menu gets broken and you can't recruit prisoners into your party any more.

https://imgur.com/HL7rAIT

When I click 'I need some X as prisoner', the prisoner recruiting menu breaks even if I don't take the lord's offer in the end and back out with 'Never mind.' on the next screen. Afterwards funny stuff like these happen:
https://imgur.com/vMzzeps
https://imgur.com/KqAGTPD

I can't mod at all but took a look into the module system and my guess is that probably some code with this quest mishandles the s18 variable(?). I found this line in module_game_menus.py:

("camp_recruit_prisoners",0,
  "You offer your prisoners freedom if they agree to join you as soldiers. {s18}",

点击展开...

I checked where s18 is also used and it's used in the scouting missions of companions to show the name of the kingdom they can gather intel on; it's also used to show text when recruiting volunteers in villages and for some dialog where lords name their rivals.  After this bug rears its head I can't recruit from prisoners any more as instead of showing the number and type of troops willing to join me it shows a lord's name, a kingdom's name or the villager recruiting text depending on where s18 was used latest. For the example images above I recruited villagers / spoke to Artimenner about gathering intel in Durquba right before entering the 'Recruit prisoners' page through the Camp menu.

Can this be fixed mid game by editing some .py file or do I have to go back to the latest uncorrupted save and avoid this quest (or at least this option inside it) for the rest of my current playthrough?

Don't know whether this belongs here but is there a chance to get the probably most serious single player bug fixed? Last time I returned to Warband to play some single player I found it unplayable because of the insane lord defection rates that totally screw up the game world.

Ludial 说:

But, but, that's how feudalism usually worked! 

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Well, defection rates weren't at 90+ % IRL. Nor were there many nobles who entered into service of six kings in a single year and got subsequently kicked out of 6 kingdoms in a short time.

You have a good point though, a select few nobles growing big is indeed quite realistic. But there could be room for that even if the king left a village each for the less favoured nobles, too. In medieval settings a noble without a fief is quite an oxymoron. And here we have droves of such unlucky fellows.

Well, disabling lords defecting is indeed quite harsh. But the current rate of lord defections makes the game simply unplayable. In fact I found defection rates too high already in the 1.13x and 1.14x versions. The AI is too stupid to allocate fiefdoms evenly among its lords. A reasonable AI would hand out towns and castles only to relatively reliable lords but would hand out at least one village each to even the lords on the brink of defection, too. They can't take it with themselves anyhow. And it's really annoying how if a kingdom loses significant territory it's doomed on the long run even if it recovers on the short term. (Re)conquered territory never goes to the lords that have lost their fiefs and thus would need one the most. Instead fiefs accumulate in the hands of the king and a select few lords and the rest simply defect. These lords then 99% of the time can't settle into another faction either and they are passed around for the rest of the game in ever increasing masses. As more territory changes hands the stupid fiefdom awarding mechanism of the AI forces ever more lords into this pitiful role and there's no going back.

Another problem is that even if the AI was smarter at distributing the fiefdoms at the current rates of favour gain/loss overall favour would still spiral downwards (just slower). Losses and gains are poorly balanced according to my observations. Virtually every time a lord is awarded a fiefdom he (and his friends) gain less relation points than all the others lose. So every awarded fiefdom just makes the king's subjects more angry as a whole.

To sum it up it was quite horrible even before so it's really amazing that they could make it even worse in the latest updates.

And now onto my actual questions.

1. Is there an easy way to modify how lords gain/lose favour? Like changing in a text file that getting awarded a fief gives +20 instead of +10 and so on. If yes where should I look for it?
2. Would rebalancing these values seriously reduce the frequency of lord defections (to at least the pre 1.15x not so great but at least still tolerable levels) or was something more serious screwed up lately during one of the patches?

S0mebody 说:

Well one advantage the 'youths' have with their tender years is someone like me in the background.

Whilst I do not personally indulge in Mount & Blade - at 50 I prefer high velocity projectiles as it keeps the blood pressure down - I do endeavour to guide in the administration of the server, and know quite a few of the lads and take an active role in moderating their forums.

Back to this NA vs RCC discussion:

Competition is great!

This is really good news for PW Mod and I hope it breaths more fire into it and forges a resurgence in it's popularity, yes the RCC server has had it's detractors but in the round, based on it's popularity until recently, has been run reasonably well and with a high degree of maturity with strictly enforced rules.

It has been noted elsewhere on these forums how noob friendly the server has been with assistance from the admins.

What I would really like to see is the two camps actually work together for the good of the genre, both respecting and learning from the other.

The NA server is ideally place to serve players from across the pond, just as the RCC Server is for this side for the Euro zone.

So no more bashing, lets work together to make PW Mod the experience it is intended to be.

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Now this is how a mature post looks like. This is to everybody participating in the lowly "I'm more mature than you, boo" debate (which has rather turned into a who is more immature competition). Instead of further embarrassing yourselves you could learn from this. *Hint*

DrDeath518 说:

Our server is becoming popular because we dont get cocky when we're on top. We respect other players and dont throw our weight around until we have to. Im almost positive that  your recent lack of "success" is do to the fact that your all a teen and you have NO real managing exp.Immaturity, being cocky and rude to players,and not knowing anything about people skill. Your leaders are still in high school and dont know how to market your server properly. If you think posting on my pages  like admin abuse here, No roleplay, No money, blah blah.is going to make people on our server believe you are wrong. My suggestion, take step back an reevaluate yourselves. and as far as im concerned every randomer on my server coulda been people like splintert doing "social experiments(said he was trying to get banned as a expierement)

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Have you read what you've just posted? It's absolutely cocky and rude (something you have accused them of) and it won't make you look more mature than them. I've also read the recent 'debate' in the NA server topic and it was appalling on both sides. Good to know that both RP-oriented servers are run by such hot-headed/quarrelsome people. Doesn't make me feel like coming back to PWmod.


@Eragon: he is the leader/owner of the NA server, not the sF one.

I started playing PWmod sometime during the summer on the 22nd server a few weeks before the RCC server started. I played only for a few weeks, shelved Warband altogether sometime when the 22nd PWmod server was shut down. (I clearly remember it so it must have been a few days later.)

To be honest I didn't have such great experiences with PWmod back then as I wasn't a fan of the then prevalent TDM/DM/castle wars attitude. I remember getting killed quite a lot for no reason, I remember all the "only for those with teamspeak" factions, all the "red declares war on blue because we are bored" "roleplaying" and I clearly remember Harlequin_ITA playing a deranged murderer almost every evening ("I'm a deranged murderer / madman, everyone is KOS. What's your problem? That's legit RP.").

It's only because of one single evening that I left the mod with good memories. That evening I managed to get into a well-organized faction without teamspeak who were not only fighting but RPing, too. A female character called Lua was the heart of it even though she didn't even have a weapon the whole night if I recall correctly. We held the central tavern for hours while having fun there then claimed a castle. After the faction has died down the remaining people went back to the tavern and I switched to a barkeeper character, serving drinks, talking with people coming in, trying to establish a bit of order through communication. This rather peaceful RP was extremely uncommon back then and it was great to be a part of it while others were ignorantly massacring each other.

Citizen_Kane 说:

Anyway maybe you could also make the sand a little less....reed? Well it looks cool anyway.

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The desert currently looks like a giant spice field straight out of Dune.


Warning! Wormsign.

Yeah. Conclusion: a little knowledge about medieval society would help when RPing in a medieval society.

xombie5 说:

i think it is much more effective, fair and awesome to tax the traders that come to buy/sell rather than the serfs - the serfs are working and not spending money - as opposed to the merchants buying stuff - call it VAT xD 

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By the morals of the era we are roleplaying in it's absolutely fair to tax the serfs, too. It's one of the fundamental mechanics of medieval society. Things like "the noble house of XY won't tax serfs and will fight the tyrants who do so" are a crime against good RP. If I recall correctly that noble council that was active till about a month ago dissolved mostly because the council members couldn't agree whether taxing serfs should be legal or not. I could do nothing but bang my head into the wall when I read that discussion.

Azrayel 说:

Thorkel 说:

Azrayel 说:

This can break the "Lord/Lady" RP a bit, but when occupying a castle or defending serfs for free as they mine so bandits won't kill/tax them as they work (and by God I swear it happened) can be considered tyranny and get an army sent against you, well, making money off of workers is something only viably done by Brigands 

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Btw it drives me crazy how much taxing serfs by proper factions is frowned upon. And you are guilty of that, too.

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???

I've never once taxed a serf. Or anyone, for that matter.

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Exactly. You are guilty of making taxing serfs frowned upon. I think from the rest of my post it's quite clear what I meant.

You should name your module PWMOD_v35B and not PWMOD_v35. That might be the problem.

CalenLoki 说:

You're conclusion is wrong - and it can be guessed by how logs and planks works in v3.5b: they cost the same, but from one log you have 4 planks. With flour and bread it will be the same.

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Damn, I forgot about that option. So much for my line of thought. Thanks for reminding me. Still, my next candidate for an additional goods type would be ale. It could be made from wheat so wouldn't need another raw material. And we have all the graphics necessary for it, I think.

Dvalin 说:

Kazzan 说:

Some people prefer the freedom of PWmod over Swadian RP I think.

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It is quite possible to create a better set of rules and a quality set of lore without disrupting the freedom of a player. There is a difference between a linear plot that forces you into a certain path and an 'open' story that allows you do whatever you want with a world of lore structured around you.

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A very good point and I very much agree with you that that a loose underlying plot would help a lot in channelling RP attempts into something more constructive and provide necessary directions for those who can't be arsed to create RP from absolutely nothing.

However the problem is the following in my opinion:
- This shouldn't be mod driven but map driven. Each map is a different world and thus should have a different lore/plot behind it. I'd very much like it if we had map-specific lore/plot/history and map-specific factions based on that and map-specific RP going on. It would also add some much needed variety and a breath of fresh air compared to the current set-in-stone permanent factions.
- But this leads to a further problem. If a map-maker creates a nice map with a nice lore behind it he/she still needs a server that is willing to host that map (not sure at all) and some tools to enforce that lore at least to a certain extent (even more dubious).


Let's take my example. I've been thinking the last few weeks about jumping into map-making. (Never done so before.) I have a well thought out map idea that I think would work. Also I already have the loose history/lore behind the map that would give nice directions but would still offer lots of freedom to develop the story. The problem is that even if RCC decided to host it, I'd still have no tools to enforce that players respect that lore. If I made the map I'd like to see new factions on it specific to that map and lore. The idea behind my map plan is to create a more correct/historical setting and thus I'd be a bit disappointed if we had the same current factions on it instead of some a bit more historically correct/viable ones.

Azrayel 说:

This can break the "Lord/Lady" RP a bit, but when occupying a castle or defending serfs for free as they mine so bandits won't kill/tax them as they work (and by God I swear it happened) can be considered tyranny and get an army sent against you, well, making money off of workers is something only viably done by Brigands 

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Btw it drives me crazy how much taxing serfs by proper factions is frowned upon. And you are guilty of that, too.

Imho a proper faction (noble house) should try to claim a piece of land and organize/regulate life on it. This doesn't only mean protecting serfs but taxing them, too. What else would a lord live from otherwise RP-wise? Sure, you can first collect money as a serf or trader or farm chests when you play a lord but that is a totally out-of-RP way to make money.

Splintert 说:

But we can't. Ever heard of NOVICIUS? Before he learned how to use forums, he whined about every single little thing that didn't go his way. We couldn't ignore him, because he was a prominent part of the community. Ignoring people makes us look bad.

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Well, there will always be whining and whiners anyhow. So your best shot probably is to choose a scheme/approach that minimizes it. I think map rotation is a good candidate for that.

Well, anyhow probably that's what the others meant when they said it's bugged. Mules could be used on Splintert's map for a nice profit.

As for the original topic. I think it should be left for the map makers to decide how many treasure chests they place. So the option/mechanic should stay imho.

Laszlo 说:

Here's my most recent pricing system. Don't worry about it getting overly complex (this didn't take very long to make), I'm not getting bogged down overcomplicating the economy or anything, the next release for PWMOD is simply being delayed cause I've just started back at Uni.

(...)

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Are the wheat, flour and bread in one product chain? Like wheat -> flour -> bread? Or is it wheat -> flour and wheat -> bread? If it's the latter then I think a wheat -> ale line would be better instead of the wheat -> flour one. It would be more fun, it's more RP-able. (For example drop off point for ale could be placed in taverns and so on.) It would also be more logical because if we have flour then bread should be made from that. (I just guessed that bread is not made from flour but from wheat because flour and bread have the same price. Maybe my conclusion is wrong.)