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FireWaterThunderSteel 说:

Aemilius Paullus 说:

Sword or pistol?

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Sword (well, actually baseball bats from gym class. We both got a month of detention after that LOL)

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I was going to think of you as an idiot for doing something as pathetically, senselessly masculine such as fighting over a woman, but then, not too long ago, my gf told me she always secretly wanted her lover to fight for her honour (but then mysteriously retracted the statement in the same conversation)... So the joke's on me - *I* may very well be the idiot who doesn't understand women here. Then again, she's a major history nerd (the reason we're together in the first place) so I forgave her and said nothing of it, because she is too full of historical romance films to realise what a load of bollocks the films, the romance and the fighting is...

But wait, you said the other chap did nothing but have a crush on your female companion. Is this really a reason to fight? I hope she asked you to do it, because otherwise, this would be pretty 'effed up.

EDIT: I take it you go to an American school. I am surprised you did not receive more than that - such as a suspension. Also, if you don't mind me asking, what form are you in?

FireWaterThunderSteel 说:

My gf got another crush at school, and I actually challenged him for a duel for her honour 

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Sword or pistol?

Rookfrjosa 说:

When the conversation goes like this:

Girlfriend: Listen, we need to talk...
You: We hang deserters in this company.
Girlfriend: We really need to talk...

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Too bad you cannot Quit Without Saving and reload in IRL... That's what I used to do with my rebellious companions until I found this tweak. Sometimes I ah to reload as many as ten or more times... Every M&B game of mien is about keeping all the companions together.

But really, yours has to be the best one yet 

Hmm, according to the Weapons & Battles encyclopaedia I have (Naumov, Shpakovski & Kudishin, 2001), the first use of bayonets was recorded in the little town of Bayone, in the Pyrenees, right on the border between France and Spain. The hunters long used knives stuck into the barrels of their harquebuses to finish off the boar, as I have mentioned. The town there began the mass production of spear-points on very short shafts in 1641, with the specific purpose of jamming them into the barrels of their longarms. This innovation soon spread throughout Europe, but it does not say how quickly, other than noting that the 'bayonet revolution' was rather swift. So I take it back, it may actually be somewhat feasible to use bayonets in WFaS. But of course, there is still the question of just when they got to the Easter Europe. None of the histories of the 17th century Eastern Europe from the mid sixteen hundreds mention bayonets...

According to the same encyclopaedia, the first major battlefield usage of an externally mounted bayonet was recorded in 1691. Again, France seemed to have been at the forefront of bayonet technologies. It seems an early prototype of the ring bayonet was used. This happened in the Orleans War, in which France and England fought for the dynastic rights of the Flanders (with Flanders, quite ironically, if predictably, not recognising either kingdom as a legitimate claimant). A French infantry regiment numbering around 1,500 soldiers went into a charge against the English. The English, seeing bayonets mounted, were confident in their safety from bullets, and knowing the severe disadvantage of taking a bayonet charge while not in motion, went into a counterattack, abandoning their field fortifications. Just then, noticing the now-exposed enemy, the French paused, halted, and presented a full volley of all the one and a half thousand muskets. The English were broken in the first volley, almost all of them falling, according to the sources. Thus, the ring bayonet began its history without even coming into action directly.

A note of interest: both the French and the English regiment were composed of German mercenaries. So no Frogs or Limeys were hurt in the making of the bayonet  Just the hapless Fritzes, as usual, on the losing side


EDIT:

KuroiNekouPL 说:

Or shoot the bayonet into someone's chest.

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...Or shoot the ramrod, as the green troops were always so fond of doing... It would be hilarious if the ramrods weren't actually a viable projectile, as long as the range was no more than twenty metres or so... And beyond that range, the things started to pinwheel. Still quite a spectacle. Do I have a new feature suggestion for the next version of WFaS? Along with bullets, inexperienced militia troops should be equipped with ramrods for ammo. It's not like they will actually remember to shoot their bloody bullets - may as well issue them ramrods, so they can fire them away to their heart's content without facing the fury of their sergeant after the battle (supposing they survive). Of course, ramrods should be a morale hit for the party that is hit. Bullets are invisible, but ya can see the damn steel bolt coming to symbolically sodomise you in your chest... Or head...

Bayonets came just after the period of the game. From the French town of Bayone, where the hunters used them to finish off wounded boar. Bayonets came around 1670s or something like that... The plug bayonets were too difficult to remove in-battle. Once converted, the musket would have to stay in the melee mode until the battle ended. It also damaged the barrel. Really, most musketeers still used their sidearms, such as mostly swords. It wasn't until the invention of the ring bayonet somewhere in the early 1700s that the bayonets became viable weapon. But when it did become a viable weapon, it became far more important than the bullet.

Battles were won or lost by bayonet charges, and not by musketry. The importance of bayonets diminished in the Napoleonic Era for some reason though. They were still important, but battles became prolonged musket-volley trading. Not certain why. I have not read much Napoleonic weapons or tactical history. However, according to Suvorov's bios that I so loved to read back in Russia, he won entire battles with pretty much bayonets only.  And his battle record remained forever undefeated. He was the greatest general of his time. So I do suppose there was something to it...

Of course, by the 1830s, the capsule locks (not sure the English translation - that's what we call them in Russia) revolutionised firearms. later still, the first breechloaders appeared. Both of these innovations put an end to the bayonet charge as a viable tactic...

LittleJP 说:

It's a little....bassy for my tastes.

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Mmm, but it's how they sound IRL... Also, it may have helped if you played Empire: Total War, especially with the Smoke and Blood Mod, and the weapon SFX mod.

Grenades are pretty OP, so the nerfing was inevitable. I personally eschew grenades, seeing them as a glorified and legalised Ctrl+Alt+F4... They make the game too easy. Oh sure, they disappear, but you could just fill up your inventory with them, guaranteeing a victory by smashing the army to pieces through the action riding back and forth from the battle chest and back into the fray. No fun. And they appear to drop morale more than non-lethal musket-shots or edged weapons somehow - I always see clumps of routers after each grenade hit.

Wu-long 说:

halafradrimx 说:

Dent 说:

Pretty sure Winged Hussars can take two shots.
Maybe Swedish Reiters.

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Depends on where the Hussar is shot.

The Hussar armor is kinda weird, it's like it have "weak spots".

Not just the legs, obviously, but some places in the torso.

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weak spots? hm...you sure its not the speed and etc physics in the combats?  which source is revealed so we can "examine" it

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There are no weak spots. There is the head, torso and legs. Hands and arms are included in the torso. M&B/Warband engine has nothing in the way of 'weak spots'.

Yeah, Swedish Reiters and just Reiters/Black Reiters can take three pistol shots in the chest. Tough buggers - they have high Ironskin, and most importantly, the best armour in the game. Swedish swordsmen are the next closest. Other well-armoured troops can take only two. With longarm muskets, it would take two shots to 'do in' a Reiter, but you could probably get lucky often enough with one.

Just look at the lower-left side of your screen for castles or towns that your enemies capture. As soon as you see them capture a settlement, rush to it. You will often find it ridiculously undergarrisoned (25-90 men). I do this trick to capture my first castle, which I need to store my troops in. Breaking into a castle is a great option - you just let the enemy come out of the narrow gateway, where they will be coming out in small groups, often times. Your troops will mow them down. Hell, just get thirty musketeers and you can take any under-garrisoned castle that way.

EDIT: Hehe, this looks just like .Org with ezekiel and his avatar there...

You know, I actually have no trouble keeping all 15. I used to have all 14, but not Zagloba or Mamai. Then I got Zagloba, as I always play for the Poles (despite being a Russian and Ukrainian ). Before Zagloba, Bakhyt and Oksana tried to leave. After Zagloba, Oksana took a liking to him, and stayed. I have high persuasion and maintain a high party morale. Looting villages is too much like cheating to me, as you get too much crap, too easy. So I manage to keep all 15 companions. Whenever Bakhyt leaves despite my persuasion, I simply reload. I save very often, so it's no problem for me.  Everyone else is sorta neutral about staying in my party, and they never speak up. However, if anyone else wants to do the same, but doesn't like to reload, I suggest you take up the Cossack storyline, so you can get Mamai. Bakhyt is the best companion in terms of Strength, so he is a very valuable fighter. Meanwhile, Oksana is fairly useless.


This is how I separate my party skills, BTW, which took me a few days of meticulous research:
Yelisey as both Tactics and Engineering companion. He starts out with the highest engineering, so he can double as the tactics guy (Intellect, after all, give you two point per level up, which is more than enough to advance two skills at once). I NEVER use Victor de la Buscador because he has high strength, which means that he can be a fighting companion. Yelisey, on the other hand, is two strength levels weaker (8 versus 10 I believe), so he is perfect for the role of a tactician/engineer.
Sarabun as the Surgery, Wound Treatment and First Aid companion. He's pretty self-explanatory, as he is the best doctor out of all the companions.
Ingri as the Trading companion. Again, self-explanatory, as she has the highest trade skill, and she is too weak to be of use elsewhere (7 strength). In OiM she use to start out with 7 Trading skill. That has changed in WFaS though...
Fatima as the Looting companion. She has the highest Agility, so that's why. And she is average at combat - starting out with the standard 8 strength.
Fedot as the Tracking, Spotting and Pathfinding companion. Again, a pretty easy choice, because he is simply the starting best at those skills.

And that is it, I believe.

Afterstar 说:

so I put all my companions into a "Heroes" category and hold them back at all cost.

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Hehe, I do the same, but opposite. I also have a category named 'Heroes' and my heroes do have pistols, but I also farm Cossack and Swedish patrols. I attack only with my heroes, telling the rest of my army to hold back at the far corner of the map. This way, my heroes/companions level up like mad, without using the Academy, which seems like cheating to me.

Uh-huh, but that's what the weapon was called in Ogniem i Mieczem, the WFaS for the original Mount & Blade (not to be confused with the mod that's on these fora - I am talking about a commercial standalone release). It was never released in the West. The graphics and the features are almost identical to WFaS, despite it being for M&B. WFaS was a gargantuan disappointment to me, because it lacks almost any new features compared to OiM. Worst of all, the OiM graphics were an improvement on M&B, but the WFaS graphics look just like OiM. Now, I don't care about graphics much myself, but c'mon, if the game essentially amounts to a Warband mod, then why can't it have better graphics?

Anyway, my rant aside, OiM had only one type of two-handed sword. The Zweihander (with two stat variations I believe). WFaS has many more, but I didn't pay attention to them. Due to the M&B simple combat system, two-handers always pwned everything. OiM firearms were even less accurate than pre-1.141 WFaS muskets. So I only used the Zweihander. When WFaS came out, it at least had the more complex and much more difficult Warband combat system. In M&B, I could solo an army of 50 men ON FOOT, simply by running to my side, and picking off any enemy that got close with my massive two-hander. No more of such unrealistic slaughter in WFaS. Not to mention, the Claymores and such in WFaS have less attack - nothing in the forties, like in OiM. Then came the 1.141 firearms.

So yeah, I never paid attention to the two-handed swords in WFaS. Not for myself. But for companions and common soldiers, they are great, because a two-handed sword is the easiest thing to handle for the AI. No aiming such as with tricky ranged weapons. No minimum distance such as with spears or worse, with pikes. Once you get past the point, it's a massacre. No needing to decide when to attack and when to block, or the swings at empty air such as with a one-hander and a shield - one handers are usually comparatively short, with the exception of a good broadsword, which is 117 long. Just swing, and you get a one-hit melee kill, with a weapon that can reach far enough, yet suffer very little of the minimum distance problems of polearms. That's what the AI needs. 

Well, back in 1.139, just a few days ago, I travelled around all of the Crimean cities, buying up Velvet (or Fine Cloth - forgot what it's called in WFaS), Spice, Salt and Iron. Roughly in that order, although I always made sure to buy up all the Velvet and Spice I saw. I bought Spice only if it was under 300 Thaler and Velvet only if it was under 400.  Then I bought Iron and Salt for under 50 thaler. I took all of this all the way to Reval, where they always had the best price for Velvet and Spice. I sold as much Spice as I could until the price for it dropped to 650 and as much Velvet until its price dropped to 750. As for Salt and Iron, I sold both until the price dropped to 200. Then I went to the neighbouring Riga and offloaded whatever I had left. This is how I farm money in WFaS. There is no trade good as efficient and profitable as Spice and Velvet in WFaS. Usually Spice is between 80-250 thaler and Velvet is under 300 thaler. That makes it to 700-500 thaler profit per item of Velvet. The inventory capacity is the only limit. Well, and the goods availability too, hence why I load up with Iron and Salt at times. Those net me a profit of 200 thaler per unit. Not like Velvet, but still profit.


Buuuut, in 1.141 all this seems to be gone  . All the Crimean cities I visit only have food for sale. The villages have even less. No one seems to be selling anything but food. I am not sure if this is just the stocks replenishing after the changes of 1.141, or whatever... I remember that the first few minutes after I downloaded 1.141, all the 'Goods' - but not weapons, armour, and horses - were worth only one thaler. I hope the lack of trade goods changes. Also, I had a load of Velvet stored in the chest in Kiev from 1.139, and so I took that to sell at Reval. I noticed that the prices for it seemed to have went up...

Whatever you do, don't give them a shield and a pistol. I tried giving my companions some shields, pistols, ammo and sabers, but all you get, as of 1.141 is a bug where they are constantly switching between a shield and a pistol, never holding on to either one for more than a split-second. They end up looking like a person having a seizure that way... I should put this on the bugs thread, if it is not already there. Also, I noticed, again, as of 1.141 that the muskets are now used in favour of swords and other weapons in melee. I see my companions and enemy musketeers constantly using their muskets as clubs while having a perfectly good sword on their side.


I remember that in the earlier Russian build of Fire and Sword (OiM), the one that was released by Snowberry Connection (?) and Sich Studios for the original M&B (and only in Russia, Ukraine and Poland - I am Russian myself) - I remember using Zweihanders for my companions, and they slaughtered everyone. In general, there is nothing like a Zweihander. Just outfit the heroes with the two-handed beauties. You may have noticed yourself that the Swedish and Scottish Swordsmen are pretty brutal killers. Sure, muskets are nice, but they only matter when you mass them, and as of 1.141 they seriously impair your soldiers' melee. So I would go with Zweihanders - or Claymores as they are called in WFaS. They have been somewhat nerfed in this version though.

I am not certain what you mean by 'no penalties'    I am simply the sort of bloke who enjoys the process of grinding because I want to get high-level weapons & armour. That is a very major aspect of the game for me. I will never buy armour, generally speaking (although by the end of the game, I will usually allow myself to purchase a particularly splendid-looking helmet).

So when it is very easy to get high-level armour, most of the fun of the game is spoiled for me. I liked the manner in which vanilla M&B was balanced in this regard. It was pretty difficult to get good armour, and even more difficult to find strong armour in good condition. Meanwhile, in Rus XIII, not only do I get very-high level armour, but I often get it from defeating a measly 4-man scout patrol. Finally, the said armour is often preceded with modififers such as 'Sturdy', 'Hardened', 'Thick', 'Reinforced', etc.

It is too easy to loot good quality armour. That is my problem, and so I would like to know how to modify the files so it is more difficult to obtain such equipment. 

Actually, scratch that  . Morale was an annoyance in Warband since my enemies would always flee in droves from me. In Brytenwalda, the routing actually saved my behind more than a few times. And it is not in droves yet. Brytenwalda is not only fun, historically accurate, but also quite difficult. So yeah, I should have just been more patient and played for a few more days until I posted this thread.


Then again, when my character becomes powerful, it may be that I will decide to disable morale again.


And yes, I know it is a native feature and thus it cannot be disabled in the regular sense of the meaning. But I also know that there is a value in some text file that stands for the minimum number of time passed before enemies are allowed to rout. In vanilla Warband, I took this value and increased it to a point where a battle would have to last for three hours until someone began routing. Since this is not RTW & Europa Barbarorum, but rather Warband & Brytenwalda, battles do not last as long.

Boyar 说:

I am playing it at the moment and.. wow. This game is fantastic.

I have it in Russian language, but since I'm still learning to speak Russian, it's a bit hard

Just one question, you are unable to recruit in villages am I correct. So the only available units are the mercenaries. Right?

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Well, late reply on my behalf, but yes, you cannot recruit faction troops until you are a vassal of a faction. Too bad the mercs are sorta overpowered since you can customise all their weapons and armour. Sounds quite neat in the beginning, but it does make the game too easy IMHO, so I refrain from hiring the mercs. I have sustained my army for hundreds of days by recruiting and freeing prisoners. Swedish troops are the best, BTW


You can always drop by the Russian/Ukrainian language forums. Most Russian youths can speak at least passable English - especially if they are on the Internet. And Google translate is better than ever, with its context-noticing algorithms.

Nordmann 说:

I have to admit, it does look interesting. When and if an English version is released, I might have a look. How does it compare to Warband in terms of features?

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Well, it certainly has many more features. All sorts of impeccably historically-accurate firearms. Two factional mega-quests for each faction, which span the entire game (you are given one after another, all of them being a part of a single story) - you can even choose separate paths. New implementations of barroom duels/fistfights (well, it was new before Warband had the drunk in the Tavern, but OiM goes further). Wagenburg. The possibility of becoming the king (again, this was new before Warband, but it is different in OiM). All sorts of new other quests. And many more features... In short, it is easily more unique than Warband.

However, the graphics, while possessing much more detailed textures than vanilla M&B and still better-detailed armour than Warband, are nevertheless not the same as Warband. The environmental shadows are not as well done, and the armour looks different, more like the original M&B. The overall visual feel of Warband is certainly superior to OiM. Then again, my graphics card is not exactly the hot stuff (integrated one, no less), so you will have a better experience, proportionally.




@JoG
Yeah, I found the snowball.ru forum as I was posting here, late May. But thanks for the other two - I did not take note of them before!

Elfy 说:

So, if cavalry is nothing, how can you say it's balanced?

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I did not say it was 'nothing'. It is still fast, mobile, and invaluable against lighter foes, especially the musketeers, who will decimate infantry in a volley, but usually have no armour and nothing but a simple sword/rapier/sabre. However, they will not beat heavy pikemen or zweihanders - 2H swordsmen. Or you think Warband is balanced? Swadian Knights were bad enough, but Mamlukes are simply a joke...

Moreover, levy pikemen will give equivalent levy cavalry hard time. Heavy cavalry will beat the low-tier pikes with usually no casualties, but will lose a few horses, or even more than a few. Pikes usually keep formation, and it is just as effective as a phalanx. I once tried to charge through a wall of levy pikes (I was on foot) and despite keeping the standard thrust-block, I could not approach the pikes to hit them with my 2H sword. A wall of levy pikes can be charged with cavalry, but expect heavy horse losses; it can be flanked if one splits up his/her forces; or, best of all - it can be decimated from range since the close ranks coupled with no shields mean severe vulnerability to firearms or arrows. Then again, it firearms, while extremely long-ranged/flat-arc even in comparison to M&B crossbows, are a b---- to aim, so the balance remains.

This is historical. Charging cavalry into a wall of polearms was always suicidal. Somehow, vanilla M&B does not reflect this simple fact. Certain mods addressed this issue by making AI conform to formations, but OiM does it best. Lack of armoured horses decisively balances mounted combat. The most expensive horse cost ~80-120k (which once again reflects the historical fact that horses were usually more expensive then all of the equipment and weapons of a knight/gendarme/reiter put together) and has 110HP & ~20 armour. Not sure if many soldier types use it though...










@AWdeV: yes, all of the reiters have pistols. The Muscovite reitars have carbines, but significantly weaker&lighter armour. Both are deadly, even though the accuracy of pistols is abysmal even by OiM firearms standards. Once again, this is historical (caracole tactics), as Gustavus Adolphus himself once instructed his reitars to hold their fire 'until you see the colour of the enemy's eyes'. This was presumably a metaphor for near-point-blank shot, or in others words, a shot just far enough to remain out of the range of whatever melee weapons the opponent was carrying. Whatever the accuracy, my reitars nevertheless rack up most kills, even with their pistols, likely because they shoot from much closer ranges than my musketeers - and musketeers can usually make only two-three effective volleys, especially when on hills.




Additionally, I must add a note about the cruciality of the timing and placement of the musket volleys. Once again, this adds a sense of tactics that was never present in vanilla M&B. This is especially true when facing cavalry. Against them, one can usually make no more than one effective volley, and for it to be devastating, one needs to seize the moment within a margin of no more than five seconds - no kidding. Firearms are very interesting weapons in general. Their theoretical effective range is probably quarter of a map. The bullet will travel on a flat arc for that distance. Also, bullet will travel on a bearable arc for half a map. But, the targeting reticle will be too large in both cases, and poor accuracy of firearms means that the bullet may even jump outside of the reticle... Therefore, the real effectiveness of firearms increases exponentially with distance. The real effectiveness of bows increases roughly linearly, or geometrically with distance, IMO.

This means (given two equally-sized forces) that a near-point blank volley can wipe out as much as half of lightly or medium-armoured foes. Firearms start with 63-66 attack for crude matchlock arquebuses and peak at 92-95 for the most high-quality battery-lock (not sure about the translation from Russian - it is a type of an advanced flintlock) flintlock. For a guaranteed kill, it is best to have a gun with ~80 attack, which is what almost all flintlock, wheellock, and snaphaunce muskets have. Pistols are usually wheellock, as it was historically then, and deal 70-78 damage, of course, at a terrible price of accuracy. Only pistols and the rarer carbines can be used on horseback. Both of those weapons are none too accurate, and not as heavy-hitting, but do reload faster.




So, I think that was enough of an explanation....