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Darky5 说:

wwlus 说:

WilliamBerne 说:

shadowarcher 说:

Was the PPsh available to the Chinese back then?

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only available to NEAJA.

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Maybe NPCA has them too? Since Soviet sends help after German withdraw theirs.

I know the 5th army was Soviet equipped, but not sure what kind of equipment (except T-26 light tanks) they receive from Soviet though.

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Great idea!, Give PPsh to every faction that has had 0.00002% interaction with russia since 1400'ish.
/sarcasm


No, PPsh should only be available to factions that is inspired by russia, which is pretty much 8RA and 4RA.

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in 1921 the representative of Comintern, Henk Sneevliet (using the name Maring), met with Sun in Guangxi. He proposed to set up a military academy and train the revolutionary army, which confirmed Sun's ideas and he eventually accepted.

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The serious lack of expert teachers was the biggest problem for the Academy. That is why lectures delivered by Soviet officers were extremely popular among students. A.S. Bubnov, G.I. Gilev, M.I. Dratvin, S.N. Naumov prepared lectures which explained the development of military thought throughout human history and the division between western and Soviet schools of military thought.
Vasily Blyukher, Commander of Soviet volunteer forces
Zhou Enlai in Whampoa Military Academy as Director of the political department.

Ex-officers of the Russian White Army, who switched to the Soviet side after 1917, taught different military subjects in the Academy using their broad experience gained during the Russian Civil War. Among them were I. Vasilevich (Janovsky), N. Korneev, M. Nefedov, F. Kotov (Katyushin), P. Lunev, V. Akimov. Galina Kolchugina (wife of Vasily Blyukher who was Commander-in-Chief of all Soviet volunteer forces sent to China) read a course of lectures on political agitation.

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In 1923, the KMT and its government accepted aid from the Soviet Union after being denied recognition by the western powers. Soviet advisers – the most prominent of whom was Mikhail Borodin, an agent of the Comintern – began to arrive in China in 1923 to aid in the reorganization and consolidation of the KMT along the lines of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, establishing a Leninist party structure that lasted into the 1990s.

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WilliamBerne 说:

shadowarcher 说:

Was the PPsh available to the Chinese back then?

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only available to NEAJA.

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To_N_SIMS 说:

the japans were one Ally from the Germans

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zzs8mm 说:

Guys...

Why are we arguing about the history of China during the civil war period and write huge essays about it? The communists won the war and we have to believe in their history now on. They won and they get to change it to whatever they like. Even school textbooks (well in Texas) and other sources favors the communists and make KMT the evil ones. Oh well, they are no.2 economy in the world. They created a 5th generation jet. what else, they will probably get a man on the moon next. 

The end.

I read somewhere in this thread that the Chinese communists adored the Americans... they only did so to make them believe they were better than the KMT and so they can win the Americans over. But then again, the US government was filled with commitern spies and the US gave up on the KMT in 1947 (because of those spies).

Kind of funny, the USSR actually supported the KMT, but they had to support their communist brothers in the end, well because they were communists. The Soviets never really trusted their Chinese brothers. Eventually Mao's ideas conflicted with Moscow's to the point where there is the Sino-Soviet split. The US tried to win over China  in 1971. Now we have cheap labor to make our stuff for us. Yay for communist China. Of course they refuse to buy stuff from us. Opps we screwed ourselves there.

I don't get why people support "communist" goverments. Look at N.Korea, Cuba, China, etc. The people help to support the "revolution" in turn the people get screwed in the end because now the government can put down people and blow their brains out for the heck of it. Well I am still waiting for the US government to lift the embargo and we can get the Cubans to work. At least I see the positive thing about "Communist" governments, cheap labor. N.Korea, you should start to encourage more investments into your country, China can't be cheap forever. At least get more light bulbs put in.

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kongxinga 说:

I still don't understand how the KMT could manage to feed the puppet army through Japanese lines. Does the driver of the truck tell the Japanese these food is for the puppet army and the Japanese guard waves him through? I frankly cannot picture that happening.

Or are you saying the puppet troops that returned to the fold after VJ day? Well of course they are let back in. Should we have sent them to Japan with the Japanese surrendered troops? Plus both you and I know that Mao accepted/forced a lot of Puppet troops into PLA when Mao got a chance.

I don't think Sun led a bourgeosie revolution, especially with the people's livelihood part, which might even be mistaken as socialism by laymen (it is not, read Chiang's and other Sun's contempory's notes on that). Plus both Sun and Chiang came from poor families, as seen by most sources including the US army pocket guide to China. Mao on the other hand came from wealthy landlord stock, i.e petty bourgeosie/kulak in communist lingo, and had the rich connections to go to Peking University. If he was living now, he would be the radical leftists in high academia type, the type that has a trust fund bank rolling his activities. Chiang on the other hand, went to military school after basic chinese education and lived a spartan life the whole time. We can see this from his New Life Movement speeches (traditional chinese values, frugality, etc), and even his recipes (frugal enough to do his own cooking). These recipes include big meat noodles (with no real meat despite its name), chicken oil fried rice (chicken fat, rice, leeks) etc.

So it was not as simple as poor people versus rich landowner. Obviously the CCP propaganda machine had made it seem Mao was from poor peasant stock, but its a lot more to it.

I am gaining quite some understanding of the opposing view, but don't think we are going to convince the other, but its been quite enlightening.

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Eumolpus 说:

kongxinga 说:

Chiang was a Christian, but he converted just to mary Song MayLing. Plus as mentioned before, Chiang was carrying out Sun's work, while Mao was carrying out the work of the Comintern, led by Stalin.

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Actually no. Mao dismissed many Comintern members because they gave him bad military advice. Also, Stalin mistakenly asked Mao to work with Chiang while Mao advocated revolution. Mao was independent of Moscow's influence.

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kongxinga 说:

He was a traitor to both Han and KMT. He did not like the fact he had to play 2nd fiddle to Chiang, and had went against Chiang multiple times before, because Wang felt he should be leading.

He finally got what he wanted by betraying the KMT to work with Japanese. He gets to misuse official symbols of the government, got his own army, and pretend he is the true president as opposed to "those guys in Chungking". Needless to say, KMT did not take official misuse of KMT symbols lightly.

Wang using KMT symbology fooled no one, not even foreigners, since everyone knew he was not legitimate. But maybe he managed to fool the willfully ignorant. So yeah, puppet troops were obviously not supplied by the KMT, but by collaborationist forces.

He got lucky and died before the war was over. After the war the KMT dug him up and defiled his corpse. Would KMT do this to a real party member as opposed to a traitor?

Saying Wang is KMT is like saying Lee Teng Hui is KMT now, that is utter baloney. Just because Lee Teng Hui was KMT at one point does not change the fact that he was a (party) traitor all along. Lee Teng Hui also happened to join the Taiwan Communist Party in his youth as well, but pretended to go KMT to save his own skin at the expense of his "comrades". I know, another leftist traitor just like Wang.

Taiwan used to have some mainland defectors/ former CCP party members, some which later killed people. Can I say all CCP are murderes, even though the murders were committed after renouncing CCP membership? This is guilt by former association. How can the former association be responsible for the actions of expelled members and moles pretending to be loyal? Mao himself still takes the cake for most murders committed by beating Stalin and Hitler, but the average rank and file members can't be labelled as murderers for the actions of former members.

So if I (mis)use the 5 star flag and commit atrocities, now people can say CCP committed atrocities? Don't be fooled by the cover.

The point is that let the truth stand on its own. But mainland has to exagerrate by smearing by past association. I gave the movie examples of the historical revisionisms. The scene with collaborationists troops singing and stamping Panzerlied and swastica with flag, white suns, uniforms the works in a sad attempt to distort the truth.

The Nanking Nanking film had the hero in either the 88 D or 87D fight out of uniform (not tattered uniform, but cloths that could fit a civilian or even 8th route) with no helmet or hat or insigna of Central army troops anywhere. We all play williamBerne's mod, this guy looked like the neutral (tavern) or bandit troops instead of a central army soldier.  And at the end he shouts the wrong slogan just to be PC in mainland?

So when it looks bad you comically exaggerate the symbols by cramming it into a tiny room with a swastika and goose stepping Nazi song, but when it was good you downplay it by making the uniform and KMT symbols disappear and the slogan is wrong? Why can't mainland do history instead of politics? At least be consistent. If they put KMT symbols with Wang's people because of historically accurate (done here in Taiwan too ala Lust Caution), then put KMT symbols when depicting heroic KMT defenders at Nanking.

When Wang boarded the plane for the Japanese, Chiang was kind enough to give him a face saving excuse to come back, but Wang simply wanted to be the leader so badly that he stayed with Japanese.

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kongxinga 说:

My version is only really under disagreement in the mainland. It is historical fact that the KMT did 98%+ of the work defeating the Japanese. This is in agreement with most of the scholars in Taiwan, pre communist hong kong, and overseas chinese.

Ok you might discount it as KMT propaganda and revisionism. Fair objection. But the facts are corroborated by Japanese evidence and texts. You might discount that as Japanese de**il lies. Fair enough. However it is confirmed by USA texts and memoirs, minus stillwell (more on old Still later). You might say it is typical capitalist swinehund nonsense.

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Eumolpus 说:

wwlus 说:

2.CCP before 1949 is a very different party. It adores US democracy and Human rights(read the pre 1949 party newspapers you will get the idea.)

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Really? The pre-1949 Communist Party adored the United States? Sure, it promoted democracy and human rights, but it never spoke highly of the United States since it backed the Kuomintang. Mao saw the United States as a bourgeois democracy, which he is opposed to and saw it as another form of class dictatorship.

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WilliamBerne 说:

I don't like it cause I saw some clips, both advertising ones and introduction ones.
From the advertising ones, I saw they had a good video making team, which was able to record other game's(total war style) gameplay and use that as their own CG.
From the introduction ones, all I could find was new story line and new art works. I didn't see they made any new function which demand a presentation. Such an uncreative job can be done by any Chinese cg student, but to sell it unthinkable.
Well, maybe they did add some SP features, but they were not new, most major mods had those features(and open sources) for a long time.
In one word, a mod which can't surprise me is nothing.

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kongxinga 说:

Why would the Kims want to nuke SK? They have a good racket going by pretending to be mad enough to nuke SK, getting money, food aid and everything in return for pretending to disarm, and then keeping power by keeping the NK people focused on the great Satan.

You can't be serious about Chiang resuming the civil war in 1946? Communists troops were actively attacking NRA (GuoJun) troops long before the war of resistance ended.
Chiang was trying to preserve chinese territory unlawfully occupied by Soviet Union. Yalta and all that good stuff. Soviets had parcelled it out to their cronies and lap dogs. Or was Soviet occupation of Chinese territory all right because they were arming the communists and training them with Kwantung army weapons and Soviet stuff?

I remember very memorably a documentary on the WOR where the young lady interviewer speaks to a old veteran in some retirement home garden place. She said, so how about the KMT CCP cooperation? The old man looked at her as if she was retarded, and then finally replied, "What Cooperation? Communist were attacking us all the chance they got. I was shot at by the communists more than by the Japanese." Followed by more swearing.

Same experience for my grandfather, where he fought mostly with the communists during the war trying to defend supply lines so that a few bullets and rifles could go to the units driving the Japanese out, although I am sure there were some units who only or mostly fought the Japanese. A lot of men in his unit used home made shotguns that blew up after the 2nd shot.

So I don't think it very fair to proclaim Chiang the aggressor and communists as victim (topsy turvy logic). Chiang did supply 8th route army with guns, uniforms etc during the war as agreed.

Off Topic: I recall my grandfather was not really impressed by the so called Guerilla actions of the so called communist resistance. Lots of running and very little fighting with Japanese, stealing weapons from KMT supply units only, getting massacred when any half competent guy with irregular combat experience fought them. But that might just be his unit, which had "dual wielding Huang Sister" 雙槍黃八妹 under his command. Communists called her Dual Wielding Bastard or B***H, haha. Grandfather had lots of irregular combat experience as a "fisherman" if you know what I mean, and set up counter ambushes for communists ambushing KMT supply lines until he got "reorganized" after which he did the same thing but with better uniforms.

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Crazy Eddie 说:

The possibility of BAR's having been shipped to China to arm the Chinese soldiers is a very likely one. The BAR was developed and first manufactured in 1918, and was readily available well into the 1930's. It would likely have been available to the Chinese generals in limited quantities, and undoubtedly saw service driving the Japanese from mainland China.

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WolfMarine 说:

wwlus 说:

Hardy 说:

Yes there were american mercenaries fighting in china before pearl harbor... 14th Squadron, and the 1st AVG, they are the known ones, there could be a lot more private military companies during this time in china.

The bar could be shot in semi-auto, it had a switch that u can change it from Safe, Auto, and Fire (which is semi-automatic). The M1 grand could be a rare weapon to pick up like 1 being produced every month, another semi-auto could be the AVS-36. I am fully aware that the bolt action rifles in this mod can do something like semi auto.

I think that the damage should be reworked cos harly anyone will walk away from being hit in the torso with a rifle round

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However, there are no BARs or M1s, or private military companies in China at the time. And 1st AVG is officially belong to the Chinese Air Force until in 1942, it formed the 14th Squadron as a part of USAF.

Regarding the damage problem, actually anyone can walkaway after being shot by Type-38 rifle. Type-38 is very accurate, but its bullet can easily go through the body can cause far less damage than other rifles.

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Actually, the USAF wasn't established until 1947, up until that time it was just a detachment for the US Army, mainly providing transportation for the paratroopers.

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Hardy 说:

Ah but a high powered rifle round does a lot of tissue damage, as it expands and tears though the human and the exist wound is greater then the entry, try wondering away with a hole greater then size of ur fist missing from ur back, blood tripping down, and a hole in ur major orgen (yep its graphic but hey!)

As for the M1 grand and bar... It should be a cheat weapon then or a 1 in a billion chance of it popping up

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Hardy 说:

Yes there were american mercenaries fighting in china before pearl harbor... 14th Squadron, and the 1st AVG, they are the known ones, there could be a lot more private military companies during this time in china.

The bar could be shot in semi-auto, it had a switch that u can change it from Safe, Auto, and Fire (which is semi-automatic). The M1 grand could be a rare weapon to pick up like 1 being produced every month, another semi-auto could be the AVS-36. I am fully aware that the bolt action rifles in this mod can do something like semi auto.

I think that the damage should be reworked cos harly anyone will walk away from being hit in the torso with a rifle round

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