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Sorry I'm so late to the party, but I was out from this game for a long time. 

Anyway, what a great run!  In my opinion that's the new world record, the time to beat.

Let me explain why.  For once, I used Diplomacy, which gives you some important features allowing for a quicker end game.  At the time I did it a pure Native run was no feasible due to bugs, but it doesn't change much.  A modded run is a modded run nonetheless.

Another aspect is the battle size.  My PC at the time could not handle even 150, so as far as I remember I used 100, which yields higher renown, increases Tactics skill effectiveness and maybe some other stuff.  To be honest, I wish You just used the default max instead of 300, which might change a few things especially in sieges, but nonetheless it's definitely more valid than the 100 I used.

Sincere congratulations, and please accept my apologies for it all coming so late.  I wish I could discuss it all with You when it actually happened. 

Such a great work!

clock4orange 说:

do you want easy way or hard?
hard is to train companions to BE your perfect knights or sergeants... then send them to train CKO 

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It's not hard, it's just long (what she said).  To the point that by the time you can truly customize your "custom" knights, you don't need them any more. 

azxcvbnm321 说:

I haven't played Floris in a while but it's main problem is that it's not gameplay balanced.  All the "enhancements" and features help the player, for example the recruiter that can recruit 50 troops and you can have 4 recruiters for every town and I think 2 for every castle.  It is ridiculously easy to mass a whole bunch of recruits.

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Standard Diplomacy feature.  It used to be required, because on Diplo. AI would enter alliances and you ended up in a three way war quite often.  Zemalf recorded a playthrough for Diplo 3.something and it was around 750 days.  I once tried to play without any Diplo features on Diplo 4.2, and I was permanently at war with the whole Calradia.  I could pull it off, but it was quite difficult and rather boring in the long run.

Now it may be less required, because new Native patches changed the lord's behavior.  Still, all it does is shortens the late game, which bores most people.  It's the same thing over and over again anyways.  It does not help you much when you really need reinforcements (your recruiters are slow and vulnerable, and recruit numbers in villages are limited).  You can say you can prepare a huge garrison before rebelling, and that is true, but you can do it anyways, it will just take a bit longer.

azxcvbnm321 说:

Then there's the auto-trainer to level up recruits.  And it has purchasable land that generates income every 2 weeks plus enterprises that pay a lot more, with the result being upkeep is no longer an issue regardless of your army size.

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Auto training works, but you can only auto-train in one town.  Not all of them.  Again, you can do the same and much faster by training them by your own party.  It's just an utility feature which lets the player concentrate on tasks which he finds fun at this stage of the game instead of running errands for Village Elders or personally supervising the training of raw recruits.

But with any decent party it's waaaay faster to do it yourself.

azxcvbnm321 说:

Yet AI lords and garrisons haven't been touched, meaning they are riding around with 120 troops, mostly lower tier and with only a handful of cavalry.  Town garrisons are around 200-300 and castles 120.

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I don't know about Floris yet, but those garrisons level up throughout the game.  Remember, you will not have an army of 400, not even 200 most probably.  The ratio remains more or less the same, or at least that's what I expect before trying it out.

azxcvbnm321 说:

Oh yeah, most of the siege scenes have been changed to allow for multiple ladders so that defenders can't make a bottleneck anymore and therefore have no chance of defending.  But it's unlikely the player will be defending as he will be attacking with his army of elite troops vs. fodder.

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That's most probably a mistake.  I tried it out in WFaS, and it was exactly how you say it.  I'll give it a try, but I expect that this attempt at fixing a glaring issue in Native simply failed.

Still, it's an attempt to fix a real issue.

azxcvbnm321 说:

The mod is way too easy and unbalanced.  If you think PoP is boring after 18 days, then I'm not sure why Floris would be better.  Though Floris will allow you to rush the game and finish it in record time, so if you're for that kind of gameplay, then that mod will allow for that.

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I didn't get bored, just disappointed.  And not after 18 days, but more like 200 in total.  I have seen most of the features of PoP in this time.

azxcvbnm321 说:

The high levels and proficiencies of troops in PoP is needed to provide the player with some sort of challenge.

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Actually, no.  High level of profs, just exaggerate the weaknesses of M&B engine, and since you get to lead those supermen into battle, it all cancels out in the end.  The extra challenge is not really there.

azxcvbnm321 说:

  Sure you can ride around and solo them, but if you can do it in PoP, then you can do it in just about any mod that allows for horse archery.  If you're a god in PoP, then you'd be even more so in Floris.

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Actually, no.  I've been defeated by 9 Forrest Bandits several times in a row by now.  I tired various approaches, and I simply can't beat those guys.

No need for supermen.  All it takes to defeat horse archery abuse is to make horses slow down as they get wounded.  Simples.

azxcvbnm321 说:

Last time I checked, there were bows with 35p and 95 accuracy, which would be a restricted and rare weapon in PoP, but those are pretty regular in Floris.  The next strongest bow is 32p...these are super weapon stats.

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Let's do the math assuming PD 5.
35+35*0.14*5=59.5
32+32*0.14*5=54.4

Barely any difference.  For PD 10 you'd get 84 and 76.8 respectively.  7 points of damage... Man, that's huge!

azxcvbnm321 说:

And I was one of the most vocal to get the developers to change the accuracy of bows from 99 or 100 down to the 90's, high 80's.  I told them to look at PoP to see how bows were handled there.  Floris did change the accuracy of their bows, but that took a while.

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Bows in PoP are terrible.  They don't act like bows at all.  I believe your contribution worsened the mod.

azxcvbnm321 说:

Evidently there are lots of people who don't want a challenge but want to steamroll everything at will.  That opened my eyes as I didn't consider that kind of playstyle, but I think the majority of gamers are of that type.

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So how many days a typical Floris playthrough takes?  Do people even finish it?  Because if not, there is no need to slow it all down even more.

You want a different challenge, play with a party of max 50.  Small tweak will do it, if you can't resist the temptation in game.

clock4orange 说:

all of this already is in PoP...
skills depend on trainer - Lethadrin goes with archery, Jocelyn with lances etc. you need to choose who will be trainer and in what skill, so you can put some points in
armory you can give'em depends on their level, so you need to choose what path you want them grow

frankly, I don't see any point to change the way you building CKO, even time doeasn't matter much - PoP is not a game for 100 days run...

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I want my knights to be mounted, one-hander and shield, siege crossbow and bolts.  How do I train them for this role?  I want my sergeants to be trained in two-handers and crossbows, no shields, no horses.  High athletics, since they don't ride.  How do I do this?

How about giving them sumpter horses to ride on the map, but I want them to spawn dismounted, just like Swadian Sergeants in Native.  Can I do this at all?

Is it even worth it to go with crossbows?  Less skill required, so basically is it going to be any faster?  Cheaper?

Essentially, where are the compromises here?  Where are the sacrifices to be made?  So far I gather that all I need to do is wait, and I'll get it all eventually.  Waiting is neither difficult nor interesting.  Not just for me, for players.


Seriously guys, I just downloaded Floris and it's what I more or less expected from PoP, while PoP is what I expected from Floris.  Thought out and surprisingly coherent mod which fixes (or attempts to fix) the most glaring weaknesses of Native vs. more or less random collection of features and troops.  I guess they worked on it while I was busy not looking...

Yeah, I can see it all working.  It's just that being decent in melee is simply not enough for PoP at maxed difficulty.  Which is fine, of course.

BTW - don't you know what it takes to not be staggered while blocking.  It seems to me my character is, and that's the main issue.  (Also ranging and timing, but that's just a matter of practice.)

Amtal 说:

So there you have it . CKOs as they are offer a WIDE variety of Options on how to equip/train/use them . But those are not really seen by some people . So those people think they need a change/fix to the CKOs so they are more usefull to them...

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  Yes, it's technically possible, but it does not make much sense.  For once you can have well equipped and trained troops much faster and much cheaper by using existing KOs.  Then, you can equip your guys with temporary kit, but you'll have to pay through the roof for it.  The expenses are already very high, and by doing that you just make them higher.  Significantly higher, if you plan on making them mounted and with a ranged weapon. 

Even if you decide to do it, you still have to wait significant amount of time for when your guys will kit up.  Waiting whatever you do...

And finally, you have no control over how they are trained.  They may pick up useless skills, totally unsuited for the role you envisioned.

Just because something is technically possible, does not make it a worthwhile choice.  What people typically do obviously makes the most sense, or they wouldn't typically do it.  Shifting the blame does not solve any problems.

Having full refunds, immediate equipment time and fairly tight control over skill distribution (I vote for normal level-ups) would solve some of them for sure.  Your partially trained guys could become useful much quicker, and only get better as the game progresses.  If their cost was tied to the amount of training sessions (or their level), the player would have to think hard if he really needs those extra skills to make them effective. 

How much PS to they really need?  Are Noldor bows necessary?  Maybe crossbows would do, no need for PD in that case?  This armor is better, but that would require two more training sessions, which will cost me that much more money and time.  Is it really necessary?  Let's try them out first.

Decisions, compromises, trial and error, proper gameplay.

Amtal 说:

"The Problem" you see, based on your playstyle and expectations towards the Game/Mod, is not existent for other people at all .

You see, you seem to "game the game" more than actually playing it ( this assumption based on various posts and comments of yours I read by now ) . But PoP is - imho - designed for people who like to play stories .

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So you say that devs do not care too much about creating various easy to abuse game mechanics, because the main focus of PoP lies elsewhere?

So why you lose morale, honor and renown when retreating?  If they don't care about it, why they introduced it?  Why your party loses morale if you tell them to retreat at the beginning of the battle, even if you win against huge odds?  Only two examples of many such moves.

I simply don't think that what you write is true.  Devs tried to limit the abuse, but overall they rather failed, in my personal opinion.  Especially since most of the countermeasures to cheesy strategies are the very definition of cheese themselves.

But yes, I agree that it's still possible to role-play this game.  The environment is very rich, very complex and the gameplay challenging.  Although, it's hard to role-play a Noldor-hater.  You cannot role-play a Heretic or a Snakeman.  Being a bandit seems to be restricted too.

In the end you can role-play only a subset of roles.

Amtal 说:

on Topic: I dont use CKOs . It is mainly the huge training times and financial investment required which hold me back . I know I could tweak these, but the effort does not seem necessary to me .

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Hardly a contradiction to what I'm saying about CKO...  Even role-players have practical expectations, it seems.

Raviollius 说:

Eh, it's less about overpowering them and more about learning to fight 1x1 or 2x1. You can dodge every single shot of a unit if you time a slight dodge correctly, regardless of said unit's WPF. Blocking someone correctly usually gives you enough time to get a hit in, even if you have 200 less WPF than them, unless your weapon is really slow. Chamber blocking trumps everyone, horses are almost autowin etc etc.

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While I don't claim any great melee combat skills, I think I'm decent.  Maybe my character lacked another 100 WP points, but I was hit after every successful block before I could react. Chambers could work, but I can't pull those off consistently enough.  Definitely not against attacks in PoP.

From what I have seen on Youtube so far, the most successful strategy is baiting a hit from out of distance and following with your own right after that.  Unfortunately not possible to do with low Athletics, and you still can get hit later or chamber blocked.  One shot usually is all that it takes to knock you down.

2-vs-1 on foot is absolutely out of question for me.  I'd like to see it done, though.

placenik 说:

Concerning soloing army- who ever said you need to kill them all in 1 battle? You kill as much as you can, and then get a hell out of there. With no companions, there will be no complaints.

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With that in mind, you can even afford to be captured.  Early on nothing you have is irreplaceable.

placenik 说:

BTW, for Heretic army, you want to wear it down to pure Demonic Magni squad- Q gem and Demon Chargers are almost guaranteed (with decent looting skill)

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Good tip, that.  First get them stuck on something, dismount, and then avoid killing those guys.  Hmm, I didn't think about that.

placenik 说:

-Tactics. Actually lowers my renown gain, but will get to 5 anyway due to achievments/books/random

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I planned on keeping some points in reserve to put it into Tactics when it becomes useful.

placenik 说:

Leader skills:
-Inventory management of 2-4 is cool

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Lazy...

placenik 说:

Personal skills:
-Athletics. I never ever rise it. If I'm dehorsed, I die, and I accept that fact.
-Weapon Master. 3 is usually enough to start with (+2 form book acheivement), if you are gem junkie, it will stop to matter very soon.
-All Power skills but 1- choose your killing tool and stick to it. If you use bow, keep Shield skill 0, you won't be using it.

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I think you are right about that.  I was considering farming tournaments, but dealing with Hero Adventurers is out of question for me, until I buff my character to similar level of OPness as those guys, and even that I'd still need to skip quite a few. 

Since plenty of people finish the game at mid-to-high thirties, it seems to me that most tournaments are unwinnable.  Not without lowering the difficulty. 

Darkdog_13 说:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCgkWlg3AMY&list=PLZgbJ7IH6KJYkJyF4tkB72qzPEogUE0zT&index=32

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I watched this vid.  Wolfbode is actually easier, and can be defeated faster.  Plenty of his units are strong on paper, but very weak against horse archery, and they don't have a counter to this.  Mystymountains have some Hero Adventurers who prevent you from closing up, which is my main strategy for dismounting enemies.

Darkdog_13 说:

PoP does give the player the ability to become even stronger then native (which already allowed the player to become a demigod) it is up to the player to decide if they want to place limits on themselves or not.

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Well, not really.  Yes, you could refrain from close combat and still win, but if you expect having those "fight in the streets" and "storming the keep" events, you need to become some sort of superhero. 

Darkdog_13 说:

Warband/PoP gives the player a ton of freedom and if you are bored at 18 game days played then PoP is most likely not your cup of tea which is fine considering there are so many good mods for warband.

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It's just that personally I simply disagree with most important changes introduced to PoP.  In my opinion they accentuate weaknesses of M&B engine. 

Just to illustrate - very high level units with maxed WPs and high shield skill wearing visually small shields of size 120.  They hit very fast, faster than the animation, while having a forcefield all around them.  It seems quite ridiculous to me.

Darkdog_13 说:

The peasant army is meant to be very weak on the other hand spawns like Syla Uzas/Dread Legion/Warlord Zulkar (when i fought this guy he had nearly 3000 men) are not pushovers.

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How an army of 1000 work-hardened angry men can be weak?  Anyway, I started working on Syla in my former game.  I defeated Zulkar too, I think with the help of one random lord.  I don't remember Dread Legion.  I think they were still up.

All of those guys are very easy, because you can join any fight you want.  With that you can build positive relationships with everybody around.  You can even farm honor by joining one side then the other, so you farm honor by constant betrayal.  Ridiculous, but works in PoP.

(One annoying thing about PoP.  I didn't even get the escape message about Zulkar, because he probably was too weak to fight.  I tried to see if he's up, but he had so many different units, that it all became unreadable.  I tried various resolution, AA settings, nothing worked.  I couldn't tell how much health he had.)

azxcvbnm321 说:

Wow, if you can kill Wolfbode's Army by yourself, you either are playing with a very low battle size or are a great fighter and have luck on your side.  If I remember, quite a few of Wolfbode's army have mounted archers/archers and while they might not be that accurate when you're flying around on your horse, those random hits add up either killing your horse or you.

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I have Temptress armor and Barbutte, just because it looks good.  I looted better helmet.  Hits from Mystymountains archer, mounted or not, usually roll 0 damage.   

My Battle Size is 150, the highest default.  Personally I do not think that higher battle size makes the game either more difficult or especially better, but it would change this fight to a degree. 

azxcvbnm321 说:

Sure you can find another horse but a whole bunch of guys will be chasing you.

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You have to dismount them first.  The easiest way is getting them all stuck on something and each other.  In PoP horses have very low maneuverability, so the AI gets stuck easily.  I increased it a bit, but it still is not very difficult to make the AI dismount without shooting a single arrow.

The more of them, the easier it all becomes.

azxcvbnm321 说:

With my battlesize at 400, I know it's impossible for me to solo Wolfbode's Army even if I had my companions with me.  A peasant army though, can be soloed.

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Do they still have reinforcments?  If so, then it's probably practically impossible to solo such a big army, because you'd have to kill all of them in one battle.  It's not totally out of question, but significantly more difficult for sure.

azxcvbnm321 说:

I don't know what superpowers PoP has, maybe you mean super weapons.  But since you face super-enemies those super weapons balance out.

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You do not have to make sacrifices because of Qualis gems.  You can have superweapons, which also do not require any sacrifices.  Super reach, super speed, super damage all in one package.  Super horses too, with the best everything.  And super armors.

Yes, other superhumans can still damage you, but normal humans can not even touch you.  It's like Godzilla vs Devourer or something.

azxcvbnm321 说:

And the super-weapons aren't all that much better than the best weapons from native, I'm talking about bows only.

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Even common claymore would be a superweapon i Native.  It's fast, long and can be used one-handed.  In Native if you wanted speed, you had to sacrifice reach and often quite a lot of damage. 

Regarding bows - in PoP there are no bows.  In PoP we have long range breach loading rifles.  Low level archers have BB guns, though.

azxcvbnm321 说:

I don't think the other weapons can be called super-weapons because while they are powerful, it'd be hard to rack up hundreds of kills (outside of a siege) because you'll have to engage in close combat.

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You can ride over archers, deal ridiculous amounts of blunt damage while covering behind your shield, then cut them down because your weapon is so fast.  It's not just about total amount of kills, more about being able to deal with potentially difficult enemies with ease.

thermocline 说:

He basically rides around in a circle for four hours (of real time) and shooting things in the head with arrows.

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The fix for it is very old and very easy.  Horses slow down when low on HP. 

thermocline 说:

If you go to extremes like that, yeah, you can save/load for asking for rumors and getting spawns, and soloing them. This will get you a ton of levels and Qualis gems in a very short amount of time, and yeah, you could probably beat the game in less than 200 days. If you think that is fun, then go for it.

Personally, I think it is a total waste of my own personal time to play like that. But, it's your game.

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I really don't know what I think about it all.  The alternative to power-leveling is a slow grind.  Very slow grind.  Then, the rewards for power-leveling are substantial, because you can get superweapons. 

People say that Native is "cheesy", because you can have knights.  Those knights are just a tad better than any other heavy cavalry, and they'll die in one hit to a low-level bandit who lances them in the back with just a tiny bit of luck.  Those cheesy knights have a sword, a shield, a helmet and some armor, the only thing that makes them better than others is that they are guaranteed a charger and usually a shield.  A peasant has non-zero chance of knocking one out, because his club will deal enough damage to interrupt a knight often enough.  When surrounded and wounded he will go down at least sometimes.

Here?  I'll need to try it, but the required number of high level units necessary to take out Peasant spawn army would be very low.  I know we mowed through them with my companions while the lord I was helping was still dancing around when doing his "tactics".  One Iron Circle Centurion could do it, 10 for sure.

I tried PoP once already, back then I decided it's not my thing.  It may really not be my thing.  The most logical way of playing it seems to be a rush toward superpowers.  I like rushing, but I don't like superpowers.  I was never a fan of any comics hero in my whole and fairly long life.

bobknight 说:

@Bakters:

Instead of criticizing your logic or your ignorance. I'm going to do the constructive thing and ask: What would you do?

How would you address your own grievances. 

How would you make the CKO simultaneously something interesting, something meaningful, something useful and something that is balanced.

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It's not like I have a ready made solution.  If I did I'd just write a suggestion, but yes, I did propose several ideas here already. 

For now I think that simply leveling CKO up just like you do with companions could make it all significantly better.  Of course it needs to be play-tested and balaced, but I can't see how it wouldn't be an improvement.  The player would distribute points and Weap. Profs. according to how he plans to use his knights.  You could tailor-make them to fulfill a specific role instead of creating a bludgeon which is OP at everything.

How many levels, how to get them, where to stop is all unimportant, until we admit there exist a problem which could be fixed in the first place.

bobknight 说:

You are treating CKO as if you are somehow entitled to them from the beginning. The point of vanity items is that they are a kind of achievement. Being purely optional, the devs don't owe you anything when it comes to CKOs. YOU choose to be bored if you want to make a luxury/optional troop to be the center of your campaign.

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How about making CKO not just a vanity item, but something actually useful?  How about making obtaining them and training them something fun instead of boring?  (Personal skill point distribution would help, for example.)

You know, games are supposed to be fun, and in any game with complex strategy planning and executing your plans is something plenty of players consider interesting. 

Oh, wait.  We choose to think it's interesting, while others choose to think that a mindless grind is way more involving.  I just wonder what would they choose, if they really had a choice...

bobknight 说:

The EXACT same argument could be made about any elite troops, be it heroine adventures, Doom guides, noldor troops etc. They are rare and hard to find/takes forever to train because they are powerful and the world isn't balanced around having tons of them. Most of the time they are there because of flavor or for vanity purposes only.

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Those are primarily enemies.  They are buffed through the roof for extra challenge.  The player can get hold of some of them due to game mechanics, and only because those mechanics ensure he'll never get too many of those troops.  If he could amass them, I'm quite convinced PoP would make it difficult.

Raviollius 说:

• CKO was deliberately made slow to deploy so they don't make all other KOs useless.
• Complimenting the above idea, CKO was a fun addiction to the game. It's not balanced around it - yet. And we don't know if it'll ever be. This is more directed to people new to the mod, that are wondering why they look so out of place(I'm looking at you, bakters).
• You gain discounts on the next tier of equipment if you bought a lower tier first. Some people seem to not have realized this. You don't need to rush the very best equipment in fear of throwing money to the trash - not all of it will be returned, of course, but it's still better to buy 1-2 lower quality(and much cheaper) equipment pieces for each slot so you can actually use your CKO before they're maxed.
• Equipment matters more than WPF. You can deploy your CKO with ~300 WPF as pure knights and either tie or get very close to it against the Knights of the Lion.
• One of the main uses of the CKO is giving you the kind of troops that your faction lacks. There's no point in making another cavalry KO while using the Sarleon culture, but doing the same as the D'shar is amazing.

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I consider it weird that the player is supposed to create his knights and use lots of others too.  It's like eating a cake and having it too. 

Admitting that CKOs are not balanced correctly is at least a move in the right direction.  Maybe they will be at some point.  More useful throughout the game and less power-creepy.

Having discounts does not remove the penalty.  Since another way to "balance" CKO was economy, the player is very reluctant to throw away any spare cash he may have.  Besides, what's the point, if you can use just about any other knights instead of yours?  If the refunds were full, 100%, then it'd make more sense.

Yes, equipment trumps stats, but since you can't get good kit for low stat bots, the power creep is real in this one.  Either super-gear on supermen, or trash on fodder.

Removing weaknesses from factions is a surefire way to make every playthrough the same, with no variety.  Playing to the strengths of your troops is what I consider the most interesting part of M&B mechanics.  PoP in generals and in particulars does not seem to believe that to be true. 


Anyway, I propose to level up your CKO just like you'd level up your companions, so you can design them around whatever equipment and role you have in mind.  Also, full refunds on early kit.  This way I'd see them as actually interesting.

Darkdog_13 说:

You must use Ctrl+T/teleport a ****ton to be level 27 with 1311 renown at day 18.

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I use Ctrl-T to see the map, but no teleport.  Ctrl-T helps, but mostly because I'm still learning.  I maintain that similar result is possible with early investments in spotting, and I'm quite sure about it actually.

50 renown per day should be easy to do, as long as you know where the enemies usually are.  Do not believe me?  How about making a cheat run to test it all out?  Ctrl-F4 everybody you find and sum up the renown, then call me a liar? 

The biggest parties I took out so far were 64 Singalians with about 20 Temptresses and 80-something snakemen.  Maybe some mountain-men or D'shar of similar sizes too, whatever.

Darkdog_13 说:

Leadership is the best skill followed by prisoneer management/surgery/looting/pathfinding (unless you abuse Ctrl+T).

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OK, I'll just take it as a compliment, so thank you.

Darkdog_13 说:

Leadership is simple if you ever what to fight the harder unique spawns you are going to need around 300 high quality units and considering that high end infantry (such as noble or immortal type knights) can cost nearly 100 per week even with high leadership and high end archers 140 or so and knights being around 200 with mercs being even more. Meaning a top of the line army is going to cost you 30+k per week even with high leadership

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So how much will it cost you without high Leadership?  45k!  Not the end of the world.

BTW - in my former start I took out plenty of spawns with no army.  Kiting works.  Kiting one spawn against the other works wonders.

Darkdog_13 说:

Looting is not so much for the money but the ability to get rare items

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Yes, but so far nobody was able to explain to me how exactly is it supposed to work.  If the nature of the mechanism is the same as in Native, maxed looting gives you extra 140% more shares.  If it's significantly different, then the game lies to the player.

Darkdog_13 说:

Really it all depends on how much cheese you are using teleporting pretty much makes food management/garrison units and pathfinding/spotting all pointless. Save scumming makes looting/Prisoner management useless since you can just reload,

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I don't teleport.  Food management is easy in this mod, and the punishment for starving your men is laughably small.  If you say that teleporting is required to feed your army, it says more about you than me, I'm afraid.

I do not reload until I'll get the desired loot.  So far I don't even know what kind of loot is desired.  I didn't capture any spawn leaders so far.  If I kept on reloading, I was extremely unlucky...

Darkdog_13 说:

kiting enemy spawns makes even having a army pointless due to the fact that the noldor spawns stomp everything with ease ( i did it once and a 400 man noldor spawn wiped out a 2000 man jatu army without any effort at all).
Its your game so by all means play it however you want but if you are going to use lots of cheese that makes the game much less difficult then yes alot of skills will be pointless for you.

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It's not my fault that the game is so easily exploitable.

Edit: I thought I'll add something, because I just did something more or less typical for my style, and there are people considering some results "impossible" without serious cheats. 

So the Wolfbode spawned.  With Ctrl-T on I could have a look at the map (that's why I use this thing!) and see where he is, and what kind of army he has.  He had some guards or something, I haven't seen before.  84 of those guys, the rest of his nearly 1k army a standard fare for mystymountains, for whom I usually don't even wear a shield.

I traveled there (NO TELEPORT) and I got the bow.  Also I have seen a promising Ravenstern army gathering nearby, so I saved.  Then I Ctrl-Clicked to get to the army leader and asked what they do, and I also jumped to the town to see if I can sell the bow, and for how much.  After that I reloaded.  I tried kiting Wolfbode towards the Rav stack, but they left, so I decided to try and see what he's made of just by my lone self.

It turned out I didn't have enough arrows to kill them all and I was killed and captured after 177 kills anyways. 

But:
1.  Now I'm sure I can take on him alone and win!
2.  I got to try this horned horse.  Nice for a bot, not very good for the player.  I might have won if not for this beast (too slow, I got hit two or three times when the reinforcements arrived, Ironbread would be a better switch).
3.  I saved, and since Wolfbode is up, I can go against him again.  This time he's short of 177 high level guys, while I lost a looted shield and gained a level.

I know this game well enough, that I'd also know what to ask for if I was expecting a cheat.  Go ahead and do it.  I have a save from before the fight, and from after the fight.  If you have doubts about my words, just ask for any screenshot you want.  I'll also answer any questions you might want regarding the fight itself. 

bobknight 说:

The problem is that if you give them normal stats and allow you to change equipment, then you have an OP troop type from day 1. (you can probably grab your own castle by day 50 if you rush, and you have 2 guaranteed gems from the start). CKOs would be INCREDIBLY OP if you allow them gear set up and good stats without delays.

You either severely limit the gear options, or you slow down the power growth like they are doing now. The devs have chosen more freedom over more control over the power.

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Making the player wait is the worst kind from any possible balancing options.  Those guys are going to be too good?  Oh, let's just bore the player and hope he'll quit before they get decent.  NP...

Terrible idea.

bobknight 说:

Late game doesn't matter anyway, the only difference between CKOs and say.. SLCs or KoTEGs is how many of them you need to steamroll the enemy. Sure I can kill 2k blob with my 200 CKOs.. or I can take 400 knights of any other order and do the same thing. At that point in the game, there is very little difference.

Hell, with good positioning, you can steamroll most armies with 3 to 1 odds with nothing but EACs and Legionaires. Some troop types are OP in this game because ranged attacks are too strong and the AI is retarded.

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Of course CKOs are not necessary to win.  The question remains, are they even helpful?  So far it seems to me that due to how long you have to wait for everything, CKO is a side-project for people who simply want to play this CKO game. 

You can not balance the game with boredom.  It's a big no-no.  Wrong. 

Yeah, I agree with other people here.  CKOs are not well designed, as far as game design goes.  Terrible start, uncontrollable power creep.  Exactly opposite to how it should be.

I propose two changes:

1.  Make them useful from the start.  Either by being able to recruit them on mass, or by making their stats better.  Probably both, to some extent.
2.  This training thing is out of whack. 

Why not make them exactly the same as any other KO, but let the player play around with their equipment?  Make them look this way, that way, whatever he likes, but still replaceable and vulnerable.

On the other hand, overpowered and unbalanced is how I see PoP all the time, so maybe CKO work exactly as designed...

Amalec 说:

Personally, I think Leadership is critical. If you're playing an ultra efficient speed-run, then the immediate boost to party capacity will save you a whole lot of renown grinding. If you're playing at a regular or sedate pace, then you'll be saving 5-10k per week in upkeep per point by the late game. No other passive income source comes close.

That said, you can start with 7 charisma and add two more with the achievement and book. I usually go this route, since it frees your completely from the CHA investment.

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Early party size boost is of no consequence, since I'm soloing a lot, then I go around with just companions.  I have close to 1400 renown already.  Late game savings might prove important, but still I think that's a sacrifice I must make to get to the late game quicker.  If it's impossible to win with 5 Leadership, or at the very least it's slower, then I made a mistake. 

7 charisma start is worth investigating, though I think I had 6 in mine, so no big difference. 

Raviollius 说:

All in all, I vote on Athletics as the most overrated skill. Armor weights you down so much that you need a huge investment in this skill just to break even. And horses are amazing in this mod.

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Yeah, that's true, but damn if I'm not having my backside handed to me on a silver plate in those tournaments.  I don't even know if higher Athletics would help very much, but I definitely understand people who just don't give a damn, and pump it up for some revenge!

Uhtred of Bebbanburg 说:

You say you've been soloing so you haven't really yet begun to play the game.

So long as you solo you won't really make use of party skills. However, once you get an army then things are going to be different.

Leadership will reduce the cost of troop wages and increase the number of troops you can have in your army. This is very important later when you have hundreds of troops in your army.

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Well, no.  If you already have hundreds, what kind of difference Leadership bonus might bring?  The cost reduction is 5% per point.  Whether it's worth it or not heavily depends on your playstyle.  I'm not saying it's never worth it, considering that many people here slow the game intentionally to have the time required for training their knights.  For them it might be, but it does not make it one of must have! skills, especially if you plan to play faster.

BTW - In my former try (lost a save due to virus) I took two cities and two castles, apart from having a free army from Knight's Order twice.  It's not like all I know is going solo.

Uhtred of Bebbanburg 说:

Prisoner management is a good skill to have and it's possible to get hundreds of prisoners if you equip  your companions with blunt weapons. I do this as soon as I find quality blunt weapons to give them.

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To be honest, I give my companions fast weapons with good reach, if I bother to micromanage it at all.  Horses with high charge damage will net me enough prisoners to fill my train anyways, so increasing their battle performance seems like a worthy compromise to me. 

I tried this doom mace thing on a companion.  So far I was disappointed.  Good if you fight one battle in a week, not great if you plan on fighting two a day.  That thing is slow.

Uhtred of Bebbanburg 说:

Trade-buying and selling things is going to happen throughout the game. If you engage in trading you will spend money in one town and sell stuff in another. If you buy from the general merchandise section and sell everything in the Horse section then you will build up money in the general merchandise section. The same goes with weapons and armor. If you buy a 100k armor then you will have plenty of money in that section to sell off a 7k piece that you don't want. Build up the money in the store and don't sell anything to it until you have something big later on.

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Yeah, I know those tricks.  I was decent in Native at some point, and of course I "deposited" money in shops by buying stuff I might want.  Still, Trading for a non-trading player seems like a total waste to me.  And since trading only ever happens in the early game, it seems like a waste all over.

Uhtred of Bebbanburg 说:

Trading is important because you will literally have thousands of troops as well as buildings to construct and that requires lots of money. Same goes when you outfit your companions with elite gear.

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You can get money elsewhere.  If you fight a lot, you will gather some expensive loot just by pure luck, you will get prisoners from horses trampling all over them, you will get lords prisoners and so on.  So far I had the army of over 200, 100 in one garrison and I don't remember how much in another, and the amount of money I lost was inconsequential.  Just capturing bad natured lords was enough to earn something.

When I'm at risk, I'll capture every lord.  I'll keep him prisoner if I want to win quickly, or release him for money if I want to have a better turnover.  Anything wrong with this plan?  Seriously, I just don't know.  So far it worked for me.

BTW - If I'll ever have 1000 troops sitting idle, I think I did something wrong.  1000 troops eating my bread and farting in the chair?  Sorry guys, I'm in charge, we go to work!

Uhtred of Bebbanburg 说:

Inventory management should be maxed. Right now you are soloing so you can go to town whenever you want. Wait until you've got to follow an army around because you are a mercenary in enemy territory and there are no friendly towns nearby. It's sickening to throw out high dollar items because your inventory is full. It will still happen with 10 in inventory but to a lesser degree.

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Jihad!  Sorry man, but your words are blasphemy!  

Don't tell me I can't feed my army and maintain morale in PoP.  Even without those supply trains.  Native was much harder in that respect, and I managed fine.  Inventory Management is a copout for lazy players.  Sickening to throw out crappy loot?  Blasphemy!

Uhtred of Bebbanburg 说:

Loot--when you are small and powerful you get all the loot and it seems great. Wait until you've got 100 men with you and you start attacking mobs with 40 men in their party. Your loot will dry up without high loot skill. Or if you join a battle with 1,000 other men against 800 enemy. Again, your loot will be shared by everyone, so loot is pretty important. I get it as high as it will go.

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Of course I did all that, and of course the results were as expected.  Bad loot.  With 10+4 in looting you'll get slightly less terrible loot.  You'll sell it all at the first occasion, so it's just money.  Very little money.

Uhtred of Bebbanburg 说:

You seem to be under the impression that you aren't going to get more Qualis gems. This is untrue. Those powerful armies that spawn around the map sometimes have named leaders. If you destroy that army and capture the leader you can get them to give you a Qualis Gem in return for releasing them.

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Yeah, I know that.  I might try spawning the spawns as thermocline suggested, so I can have higher chance of having those guys around when I need them.  So far though, probably due to lack of skill and understanding of this feature, I didn't get any Qualis from any spawns.  I don't think I can rely on it.  It's a hit and miss thing, is it not?

Uhtred of Bebbanburg 说:

It's possible to get your STR, AG, Char, up to the max which iirc is 68. Then just dump all your level points into intelligence. That way you will never be short on points to put in surgery or loot.

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Yeah, but it's going to take ages.  I try to be fast.  That's my way of having fun in M&B.

Uhtred of Bebbanburg 说:

And you don't even have to have a large army to destroy those armies. Just lead them into another army and then join on the side against them. I did this with the 200 unit witch hunter army. I lead them into a group of 50 Noldor and then joined up. It was bloody, but with high surgery it cost me very little and I got the leader in the end.

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Yeah, I did all of that in my former start.  Plenty of it, actually.  I killed lots of Noldors by "helping" them out!

sandoval 说:

re persuasion: does the dialogue-option of captured lords  to join you depend on persuasion? If so, it's of vital importance.

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I don't remember well already, but Persuasion was just one check of many, so it made comparatively little difference.  There was a check for RtR, there was a check for relations, for his relations with your other lords, a check for trustworthiness, whether he wants what you promise him, something about safety and finally Persuasion.  (Just from my dim memory, so I might be off here and there.)  Resolving dispute between lords was influenced by this skill, though I think relations were more important. 

This skill was borked in Native and PoP supposedly didn't fix it.  I don't know for sure, though.