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Piconi said:

More news will be shared as we approach the release of the content, but we're not there yet. I understand the anticipation but rest assured that development is progressing.

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That's been the response since, what, February? It really doesn't inspire confidence to hear nothing but 'we're working but can't tell you what we're doing or when it will be out. If you need more information, look at our 2 year old never updated future plans post' for the better part of a year.

To be blunt: why should any of us trust you guys at this point?
I don't expect an answer to that question, since from what I've seen over the years whenever someone asks a pointed question of this kind it gets ignored.

SpartanBG said:

Look you got a valid point. I presume you got the game after the full release. Back when it was early access it had like 5 scenes in total. Even the talents were placeholders.

Now seriously, ladder pushing and weather ARE and will always be a huge achievement. I'm kind of defending taleworlds thou i too as a passionate gamer would like to see more stuff coming. Maybe even collaboration with those modding communities that managed to build a whole MMORPG experience over this engine.

Guess not having a publisher takes its toll. I don't remember paradox times, but i can imagine communication was better then.

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I actually got bannerlord the day the early access launched. The new scenes are nice, don't get me wrong. Art department for this game does tend to do a pretty good job. But my thoughts at the time of the game's early access was that the gameplay was very barebones, but that was okay because we're in early access. But four years on and the gameplay is still essentially the same. I spent over a year going 'okay well I'll hold off playing until the update that really gives me something to sink my teeth into.' A year turned into 2, 2 turned into 4, and the kinds of things that need changing to make this more than a shallow endless battle simulator have not changed, and based on what little we can glean from TW statements, its not going to.

Why should ladder pushing be held up as some major accomplishment? Its a pretty basic feature all things considered, I honestly don't understand why its something I should be praising them for. As for weather there's two parts to that. The graphic side, which can look nice sure, and the gameplay side which is what? A handful of modifiers to unit stats?

megafun89 said:

Minor? For example the targeting, the ladders that can be pushed, the weather (which wasn't even in the route plan), do you call that minor stuff? Who was in Warband? Stop the bad faith. You haven't restarted Warband Vanilla in a long time!

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The game is supposedly "fully released" and you're touting things like weather and pushing ladders as huge achievements. Stop and think about that.

No, I don't consider either of those to be particularly noteworthy at this point in development. I would consider those a given in a functioning game of this kind.

Gadheras said:

Man, you are dense. I told you, when TW been asked about a roadmap, they keep refer to the roadmap you did link and said it still applies, nothing changed. Again you just prove whatever just go through one ear and out the next and doesn't register at all.

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Because to the majority of people asking this that answer is not good enough. It barely even qualifies as a roadmap, its a list of fixes and a few minor features with no etas or structure that hasn't been updated in over 2 years. Some of the 'features' that are on that list are things from warband that are still not in bannerlord, despite the game having its "full release" almost two years ago, and others like armor effectivness are things that should have been addressed before the "full release."

Its apalling that nothing has changed in the two plus years since they made their future plans post, despite a supposed "full relase" and multiple updates since then. Pointing to it as an "answer" is just shining a light on the issues people are complaining about here.

Gadheras said:

Quite sure TW did make their intentions clear with posts further back in this thread right? Anyone can make the argument the game lack x & y, so it must be unfinished. But then you need to find where the dev stated we will give you x & y as well. If a feature or mechanic isn't the way you like it to be that doesn't make it unfinished either. It just make it... something you didn't like

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Lets say I tell you I'm opening up an amusement park. We'll call it... Calradialand. I show you a map of the grounds, tell you that it will have a hot dog stand, a tilt-a-whirl, a ferris wheel, a full experience with classic amusment park stuff!

We'll put aside that for some reason it takes me the better part of a decade to get it completed. But when it does finally open up you and many others excitedly buy tickets. When you get there you see that the grounds are almost entirely empty save for a ferris wheel, a hot dog stand, and a titl-a-whirl.

"Where's the rest of it?" You ask.

"What rest?" I say. "That's everything I told you was going to be here. its not my fault you expected there to be more."

You're frustrated, but you already bought your ticket so you decide to go for a ride on the tilt-a-whirl. So you get in and you sit down and wait. And wait. And wait. And nothings happening. Angry, you ask me what gives.

"What do you mean?" I say. "You're on the tilt-a-whirl."
"When does the ride start?"
"It doesn't have any power." I tell you. "I said there'd be a tilt-a-whirl, i never said it would be on. That's your fault for having expectations beyond what I told you."

On it goes. You go to the hot dog stand and there's no hot dogs. 'I never said it would serve food. I only said there would be a hot dog stand. You just got these big ideas in your head beyond what I promised' you go to the ferris wheel and there's nobody working it. 'When did I tell you there would be workers? I just said a ferris wheel would be here. You read more into it than what I said that's on you.'

By now all of my customers are angry. Many are wondering why it took me so long to make this place when its clearly unfinished. To address those issues, I take the flyer and cross out where it says 'a full experience' and hand it back to you. Safe in the knowledge that I've now amended what I said and nobody should be mad anymore. I have done nothing wrong, any frustration rests solely on the entitled customers whose money I took for having expectations for what an amusment park should have. If people still complain to me, I can simply tell them that not every amusment park needs to offer the same things, and if you aren't satisfied with Calradialand then you should go to six flags or cedar point instead

Gadheras said:

You paying them monthly? How does that pan out? How do you think funding, running cost and game development take place? Game is a cash up front game. Not a live service game that got a constant influx of cash.

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If its cash up front then I expect a feature complete product upfront too. If it was a beta then I expect consistent and meaningful updates. Whichever way you slice it, they haven't upheld their end. But we get it, you don't think people deserve any answers even after they spent money. We're supposed to thank them for spitting in our faces and ignoring us.

Remember when we thought it was a long wait for a meaningful update back in April?

Lipbalmplease said:

Project Managers are essential for large projects. You hear a lot about how they hinder the process in game development when it goes wrong, but never good things when it goes right. Regardless, TW don't have them, and maybe they should have:

"The company is developer run, there are no business suits that pull the strings. Different people are responsible for different things, but everyone has some responsibility. I am not unhappy with what we have achieved during EA. Would I like to have achieved more? Sure." - Duh_Taleworlds c. 2022

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Thank you! I'm really tired of this narrative around gaming companies that every time something goes right its because the developers heroically managed to get their artistic vision pushed through, and every time something goes wrong its because upper management was smothering devs. Sometimes developers just mess up. Sometimes they aren't good at what they're doing.

Why would I buy another game from them? We're 4 years into the release of bannerlord and its still a mess with no meaningful improvements over its predecessor. I frankly don't trust them to make a good game anymore.

Lipbalmplease said:

Look, I know the last one took about a year. During which there was dead silence from the devs and also since that refactoring there has been no update to the game even though that was kind of the POINT of refactoring.

But trust me, Refactor 2 - Electric Booglaloo is definitely going to be worth it...

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Isn't it refactor 3? There was one in like the first year of the game, wasn't there?

Lipbalmplease said:

I had this exact same conversation with this guy's a couple of weeks ago and when I pointed the exact same points out to him as you are doing now, he went to ground until crawling back out to start the exact same argument again with someone else.

He's arguing for the sake of arguing - the definition of eristic. They don't have the mental capacity, probably due to some level of narcissism, to admit they are wrong, hence why they ignore your points and deflect. Some people are just like that. It's a sad life to live and definitely not worth your time.

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I've shown him the Calradialand analogy twice, and both times its come up he has simply stopped posting instead of addressing it. I wonder why...

Gadheras said:

Why would modders have to wait until the game doesn't get updates any longer, is complete, etc though? Could just as well lock yourself to a set version of the game and keep mod for that version. The whole concept of they need to be done with the game so modders can have their time seems far fetched to me. It's done with other games.

I didn't say that 1.2.x or 1.3.x should be a dlc or not. I said would you consider the game complete, if 1.3.x was a dlc? I find the whole game is not complete because it get updates baffling. I have games on steam that keep throw updates at me all the time. Games I completed long time ago, some several times. For me a incomplete game would be something similar to when BG3 was in early access and we had just the first chapter available.

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Baulder's Gate 3 is still incomplete. The third act was rushed, and the scars from its cut content are clearly visible in game, and from what I've heard they don't intend to go back and finish that.

But even when it was only the first act. From a complexity, depth, and featute standpoint, Baulder's Gate 3 was a far more complete game then than Bannerlord is now. All of this is to say nothing of the levels and frequency of updates and support since each game's "full release."

I don't even like BG3 and this is blatantly obvious. Maybe once this game has gotten an equivalent of 2 more acts worth of content since "full release" we can revisit this comparison.

JunKeteer said:

I'm at the point where they need to just ****-off, and I'll get my own trade (modders) to finish what they couldn't.

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To add to this; in this analogy just because we brought in new builders (modders) to do the rest of the work does not mean the original workers can consider that they 'finished the project'. They left a mess that somone else has to finish for them.

Gadheras said:

Bad example, as a car with 3 wheels isn't useable. You could fine play the game at release. It had bugs and issues, but you could fine complete a run on the campaign. As with most open world games of this nature it suffers late game, it all become about paint the map. Just as with any Total War game I got or similar games. If you define a game how complete it is based on what things you want to see in it or not, then no game out there would really be complete.

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Then replace 'missing wheel' with 'no ac, radio that only plays am stations, a bluetooth system that never works, seats with no coverings, and no cupholders'. Whats everyone complaining about? You can drive the drive the car, don't you know cars didn't always have things like radios and ac as standard. You guys are just ungratful and have ridiculous standards. Be happy you got a car at all.


As somone else said, the Day Before was playable at launch. So nobody should have complained about it, right? Just a bunch of entitled manbabies. The game was "complete"

Lets say I tell you I'm opening up an amusement park. We'll call it... Calradialand. I show you a map of the grounds, tell you that it will have a hot dog stand, a tilt-a-whirl, a ferris wheel, a full experience with classic amusment park stuff!

We'll put aside that for some reason it takes me the better part of a decade to get it completed. But when it does finally open up you and many others excitedly buy tickets. When you get there you see that the grounds are almost entirely empty save for a ferris wheel, a hot dog stand, and a titl-a-whirl.

"Where's the rest of it?" You ask.

"What rest?" I say. "That's everything I told you was going to be here. its not my fault you expected there to be more."

You're frustrated, but you already bought your ticket so you decide to go for a ride on the tilt-a-whirl. So you get in and you sit down and wait. And wait. And wait. And nothings happening. Angry, you ask me what gives.

"What do you mean?" I say. "You're on the tilt-a-whirl."
"When does the ride start?"
"It doesn't have any power." I tell you. "I said there'd be a tilt-a-whirl, i never said it would be on. That's your fault for having expectations beyond what I told you."

On it goes. You go to the hot dog stand and there's no hot dogs. 'I never said it would serve food. I only said there would be a hot dog stand. You just got these big ideas in your head beyond what I promised' you go to the ferris wheel and there's nobody working it. 'When did I tell you there would be workers? I just said a ferris wheel would be here. You read more into it than what I said that's on you.'

By now all of my customers are angry. Many are wondering why it took me so long to make this place when its clearly unfinished. To address those issues, I take the flyer and cross out where it says 'a full experience' and hand it back to you. Safe in the knowledge that I've now amended what I said and nobody should be mad anymore. I have done nothing wrong, any frustration rests solely on the entitled customers whose money I took for having expectations for what an amusment park should have. If people still complain to me, I can simply tell them that not every amusment park needs to offer the same things, and if you aren't satisfied with Calradialand then you should go to six flags or cedar point instead.

By your arguments. I did nothing wrong with my amusment park, and my paying customers should be thanking me for the park existing at all. And besides, they spent all day there, and the amount of hours they spent at the park means they got their money's worth.

Gadheras said:

TaleWorld released the game, keep support the game, and work on it over year and a half after it left early access

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I'm gonna stop you right there. Deciding to leave early access was an entirely arbitrary label. It had nothing to do with the state of the game or how complete it was. The game barely changed in the transition from early access to "full release". If I slap a label on a car saying "finished" when its still missing a wheel, I shouldn't be praised for continuing to work on it after its "done"

The only reason they did a full release is because the game needed to go to consoles. There is no significant changes in gameplay or features since from before and after the arbitary "early access" label. Continuing to work on the game afterwards isn't praiseworthy, its the bare minimum of whats to be expected.

Lipbalmplease said:

Someone then on the street then tells you, "hey, just keep driving the car. If you don't drive it, how will they know what they should and shouldn't fix." - this is you. This is your argument.

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Actually, going by his post history his response is more "how many hours did you drive the car? You got to drive it, that means you got your money's worth." Or "You're such a whiner, you should be thankful they're working on the car at all, most companies don't fix them after they've hit the road."

Reminder to everyone that 1.2 came out in June of last year.

Gadheras said:

There was more to it than failling to make a good game in regard of Donkey Crew and Snail Games. If I should have measured TaleWorlds by Warband, I would never gotten Bannerlord. and if I should have measured Donkey Crew by Last Oasis, I would never gotten Bellwright (which is actually quite fun even with warts and all, the flaws of early access).

I find mysef play Rogue Trader and keep thinking BG3 did this and that much better. Or that was better in path finder, or That mechanic is a ripp off from Righteous crusade Do I put the stink eye on OwlCat because of this? Why should I? In just about any game I play I find some other games that done something better or something I did prefer/liked more.

Regardless what we feel is missing or lacking in Bannerlord, the game was a success. The sales numbers and number of players playing the game still today lver year and a half after release is proof of that. Players wanting more out of a game will always be a thing, regardless of what game it is. A game studio will only invest "so much" resources into a game post release. End of the day it's a business and they need to make new things. Bannerlord isn't a live service game they keep milk daily.

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What point are you trying to make here? Don't ask for games to be better because its only ever going to be how it is right now? That you shouldn't complain about a half baked product because the company made money? That you should never compare games to each other?

You might as well just come out and say 'just shut up and consume product' at this point.

Say the line Taleworlds!

Spectacular Knight said:

We may have to accept that Taleworlds has a different idea of what a "worthy successor to Warband" is.

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Anyone have that quote where one of the devs said they envisioned Bannerlord as a 'call of duty style action game'?