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State of infantry
- Thread starter Crypex
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We didnt make inf more expensive and even increased their speed and reduced archer speed. Still archers can kite quite easy so we will try to buff inf in that regard again.
Inf is just as effective against cav as they were before, except that we removed the throwing weapons, which made the melee better, but frankly really tipped the balance in favor of cav.
We'll employ some changes to buff inf vs cav.
Inf is just as effective against cav as they were before, except that we removed the throwing weapons, which made the melee better, but frankly really tipped the balance in favor of cav.
We'll employ some changes to buff inf vs cav.
Unfortunately Archers in captain mode can't kite well at all, which is a shame to see because Skirmish and Captain balance are dealt with using the same code. I'm sad to hear we won't be moving in the other direction by making Archers faster as many captain players would like to see.
I had a match today where I spent 100% of the time running as archers, the enemy infantry was able to close the distance within 45 seconds of the match starting, and fully wiped my unit even though I had not stopped "kiting" them by ordering my men to hold fire and run. Things must be very different in a skirmish match that you are unable to catch these turtle-moving archers.
The captain meta is sadly still an infantry spam, with a cavalry unit thrown in every once in a while. Archers are in a better state now than they were in the previous patches, but they still aren't anywhere near where they were in 1.4.3 which is a shame because they were functionally perfect for captain mode prior to 1.5's initial release.
The captain meta is sadly still an infantry spam, with a cavalry unit thrown in every once in a while. Archers are in a better state now than they were in the previous patches, but they still aren't anywhere near where they were in 1.4.3 which is a shame because they were functionally perfect for captain mode prior to 1.5's initial release.
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soul_jak
Sergeant at Arms
Ai moves slow compared to ur speed I guess but yes in skirm its shoot and run and have the other archer or cav attack the inf pushing or just out run the inf till they give up the u shoot
I think it might be because the Ai can't holster its weapons or drop extra weight to increase its movement speed like the player can, but that's just my speculation. Map layout might also have alot to do with it as well. A player archer can climb a wall or a ramp and jump off of it as soon as enemy infantry approaches, an Ai is stuck on that wall or ramp and must leave the same way it got up not allowing them to evade like a player can.
Archers feel quite sluggish, which is mostly fair but any further movement disparities are really going to make them ugly to play and useless in melee (which will ironically make kiting more frequent as they have no choice). Maybe the shield weight impact on movement for inf can be reduced?
One thing that really benefits archers is the map designs, which have lots of nooks and crannies and places cav have difficulty pushing. Especially in 6v6 you simply don't have the inf numbers to always push archers and there's just no way to reliably make this quick without making archers useless (something I'm sure many want, but will be shocked pikachu that cav are completely unimpeded after that).
Why not directly rework and nerf cav instead of buffing a single class against them? Cav speed, pushing ground troops, bouncing off obstacles, turning and blocking, being able to carry pavise shields, having access to large amounts of armour, and being able to double-tap W after rear-up are all areas that could be looked at.
Are you guys also working on spears for facehugging and cav rear angles? It got fixed by a lot in last patch but it still feels unreliable in like 20% of cases I must say.
We wont make archers slower in captain mode. In fact probbably quite the opposite.
I was only talking about the points he mnetioned, those are obiously not the only things we are planning. For all the other balance stuff there is 2 thread with upcoming changes. Ill make an update to the cavalry rearing one soon.
I was only talking about the points he mnetioned, those are obiously not the only things we are planning. For all the other balance stuff there is 2 thread with upcoming changes. Ill make an update to the cavalry rearing one soon.
This is a huge relief! I am excited to see where these changes lead us in the future
Sure but seems like the only changes are cav rearing and some perk/stat changes, the former is good for the most egregious issues of cav bouncing off of spears but there more core issues with how cav interact with the battlefield.
This mean new MP Statement thread?
@Ling* Archers should not be faster than infantry. You shouldn't need a cavalry unit to slow down the retreating archers to catch them as infantry. Heavy infantry in line formation should be faster that archers. Heavy infantry in shield wall should be slower than archers. Formation speeds were perfect before they changed them in the last update.
nerburg
Sergeant at Arms
So classes can be balanced for the game modes separately now?
Crypex
Veteran
1) You did make infantry more expensive. Increasing the price of heavy infantry from 140 to 160 did lead to a higher price. The price increase would have been fine if a medium infantry class was introduced.
Empire
With 300 Gold Of skirmish, the player can only go legionary once and recruit. Going recruit is not as feasible and the unit has no survivability.
Sturgia
The same problem with the empire faction, the brigand also does not have the survivability of "Medium" infantry classes at this level.
As if right now the only factions that have medium infantry are Battania and Vlandia.
Khuzaits only feasible option has also been increased from 120 to 130.
The only faction that was left untouched somewhat was aserai infantry.
Based on the price increases I mentioned it is safe to say the devs did increase the price of infantry without giving them an alternative.
2) Archer kiting would work but in most cases, players can just run unequip their weapons and run away. If a player focuses on returning back to the fight the archer can just shoot again.
The problem is
a) archer acceleration should not be better than infantry.
b) The game forgets positioning as archers can outrun shield infantry. Solutions would be decreasing archer speed and not making infantry shields a significant burden infantry.
Overall the archers should have around 70-72 unit speed the same way sharpshooters are. If you notice these units focus a lot on positioning and not running away especially given the time it takes to reload a crossbow.
In a way you have to nerf archer speed without making them sitting ducks for early game cavalry charges so ultimately a cavalry nerf is required as well as a small archer nerf.
3) Cavalry
Bump lancing is too powerful.
a) Horse survivability is too high, the fact that horses can take a pila/throwing spear and survive should not be a thing.
b) Hooked spears are supposed to be the perfect counter for horses and yet they are not a thing.
c) Spear work against infantry but not cavalry. Meaning that a rider can hit a player while standing still with a spear while the player is not able to counter the horse with the spear because the hit is negated. In most cases, a rider can come right in and the attack will be ignored completely. (i am not sure if this is the cav rearing glitch but this is usually my experience)
d) Add to point C is that bump stabbing while powerful completely ignored the distance needed for a rider to hit an infantryman so at the end of the day both units are not playing the same game.
e) Cav is the most risk-free class in the game as it is the one class that does not do friendly bump damage. This means a player can just run around in a fight with a horse and bump infantry while completely negating the risk of his team being exposed from friendly bump damage.
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Hard disagree my dude, Archers absolutely need to be faster than infantry in captain otherwise they are useless and get taken out within the span of them releasing 5 arrows, the infantry can control the Morale flag points if they don't feel like chasing archers, and archers will eventually run out of ammo. I'm done with infantry spams and I refuse to go back to that nonsense. Pick a cav unit if you want to stop them from running.
Archers are lightly armored with poor melee capabilities, they need to maintain distance in order to be useful at all, if you slow them down you prevent them from being useful outside of the first place you decide to position them. You try moving from that position at all while being pursued you are guaranteed to die. We shouldn't force a stale, standing still and shooting meta on captain players, it should be more dynamic and mobile with constant repositioning otherwise you might as well just put your men on charge and go watch a video for the remainder of the match.
A shield unit only needs to be in shield wall as long as the archers are shooting at the shield units, but since arrows are pretty ineffectual at dealing damage to units in shield wall (rightfully so), if the archer stands still and continues to maintain his position and fire he will do no damage and slowly but surely the shield units will have closed the distance and then will kill the archer in the melee fight. If a shield unit approaches in shield wall and I turn to run with my archers, all the shield infantry has to do is turn off shield wall and pursue me, If I stop and turn my units around to shoot him with my Archers, he simply puts his units back in shield wall until I stop firing and run again, since Infantry is faster they will always catch up no matter what the archers do. This is simply unacceptable and results in an infantry spam due to Archers simply being too slow to do anything valuable.
All these balancing suggestions seem to want to favor an infantry spam meta that may be a good thing for Skirmish but is an absolute snooze fest for Captain, no one wants to play 100% infantry and no one wants to watch 100% infantry unless you're doing some line battle nonsense which I don't find to be appealing anyways.
You're right about formation speeds though, the current speed is wack.
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#inflivesmatter
#MakeBannerlordWarbandAgain
