Melee cavalry is underpowered at the moment (Suggestions updated)

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Because there are tonnes of accounts of these charges occuring. And because peoples used cavalry. WTF would you outfit battalions of plate armoured horses if they couldn't even charge into an enemy formation?
 
Because there are tonnes of accounts of these charges occuring. And because peoples used cavalry. WTF would you outfit battalions of plate armoured horses if they couldn't even charge into an enemy formation?
Who said anything that they couldnt ? And they can in game to.....
Question is if 500 Cav units could kill 1k infantry in one blow and going out from it without a scratch ...dont think so since they only had one lance :wink: and when the time they got their swords out in the mist of things.... the inf would prob have taking them down on their backs as they where laying there like an stuck turtles...but hey its just theories isnt it not ? :wink: Since both you and i as well as the historians wasnt really there. Dont do me wrong i love history...but i also take it with an pinch of salt. I mean you can ask an soldier of today how the battle was actually like as you read something else from an general that wasnt even there. Or you read in an manual about these awesome high tech tanks that could do this and that but didnt see how ineffective they could be in certain situations against poorly equipped farmers...Im just saying
 
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You mean simultaneously and instantly? Of course not. In a single charge? Maybe if they were poorly equipped infantry or in poor order, horses can quite easily kill people themselves and of course their riders have swords, maces etc for when their lance breaks.
Also btw although I can't remember the source there is a contemporary account written by a general (or someone with extensive military experience at least) on the subject of the caracole (a wheeling shoot and run tactic used by mounted pistoliers) in which he claims that it is generally ineffective and that the real usefulness of a cavalry unit is whether or not they are willing/able to "charge in steel at hand" which clearly implies that whilst cavalry were unwilling to charge infantry blocks (understandable tbf) the "useful" ones obviously were. IIRC (and I definitely might not) this was around the time that western European armies were basically doing away with heavy cavalry whilst in Eastern Europe the hussar was evolving into the heavier version with even longer lances.

Again though I'm not sure what relevance this discussion has to gameplay, I can't actually think of a workable way to simulate a horse's unwillingness to charge at infantry in game. Perhaps troops mounted on "horses" rather than "warhorses" should have significantly lower morale but I think that would just be annoying and wouldn't really work for horse archers.
 
Secondly cavalry charged into pike and spear formations many times throughout history. Even during the era of pike and shot. If you want sources just read through some of the battles fought by this dude

There is not a single mention there of horses colliding in to pikes there. There is difference between cavalry charging formation and cavalry charging in to formation.

I can't remember which battle it is, but there is even an account of him leading a cavalry charge up a steep hill against pikemen and routing them.

Be my guess and show me evidence that they routed them by impaling themselves on the pikes.

Because there are tonnes of accounts of these charges occuring. And because peoples used cavalry. WTF would you outfit battalions of plate armoured horses if they couldn't even charge into an enemy formation?

For the same reason why you outfit anybody else with armor.
 
You would actually have to read the wiki pages of the battle to find the mention of him routing pikemen. But in case you didn't know, the Swiss forces at this time were blocks of pikemen, any mention of cavalry charges against the swiss is a mention of a charge against pikemen.
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I was wrong, the quote is right here
"In 1508, Bayard accompanied King Louis XII against rebellious Genoa. In the battle that broke the back of the rebellion, Bayard played the role of champion and spearhead in the French assault, a breakneck cavalry charge up a mountain slope against a seemingly impregnable barricade defended by a pike-phalanx of Genoese militia. The Genoese broke and fled before the furious charge of Bayard and the French gendarmes. Genoa subsequently fell, and Bayard entered the city in triumph behind his king."
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For the same reason why you outfit anybody else with armor.
Just to be clear, I meant why would outfit the horses with armour. Plate armour no less. If the horses are never going to contact the enemy this is not only a complete waste of shedloads of money, but also makes the horse slower, less manoeuvrable and more easily fatigued for no reason.
 
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You're getting desperate.
You're not really in position to say that. You got completely owned, and instead of just acting maturely and accepting it and maybe adapting your opinions to facts, you just try to grasp at straws to "win". He certainly isn't the one who's looking desperate.
 
You guys live in an fantasy world yet you talk history facts xD So you think 10 Cavalry men in real life rode in from lets say 100 meter against 20-30 archers without any problems then swoop em all down in one swing.,...got it, The old saying theories is just theories when you sit behind those books until you hit the real battlefield. then life strikes you to the face

From 100 meters? The archers would be lucky to get 2 shots each, probably less since they would get in the way of each other and even if half the cavalry missed on their first attack that is 5 archers down vs maybe 1 cavalry wounded and then what do the archers do? They have cavalry right next to them just looking for a target standing still to hack down. Maybe 5 archers keep calm and take careful aim... some of the cavalry will notice and head right for those guys, maybe 2 of those archers get a good shot, one kills a rider and one kills a horse but 3 get hacked down, there are still 7 fully functional cavalry, 1 wounded, and 1 dismounted. The archers are now down 10-12 and really have not much they can do except run away.

More likely veteran archers will start running as soon as they realize they are in the open and unprotected vs a cavalry charge. Archers behind bulwark, infantry, or cavalry are great and can punish cavalry charging toward them which then has to fight past the protecting cavalry or infantry AND still take arrows. Archers by themselves? Heavy cavalry should be able to run them down fairly easily. I don't think ALL cavalry should be able to defeat archers so easily. Lower tier cavalry should still have the morale impact and benefit from speed hits but also are more vulnerable due to lack of armour but should be more numerous and cheaper which offsets that so lower-tier cavalry could run over lower-tier archers but die to higher tier archers that shoot faster and harder as well don't die or rout from lightly damaged morale.

Ideally only higher tier cavalry should be able to stay in formation/return to formation right after a charge. Less trained, low-tier cavalry would act like they do right now and be good for 1 charge and then scatter engaging 1 v 1 or running down routers. TW can accomplish that much even if the rest of the cav vs spear vs archers might not get balanced to mimic the real world very well.
 
I've said this before and I'll say it again. Cavalry aren't necessarily weak, they're just no where near as devastating as they could be. And at the same time, spear infantry are nowhere near as deadly to cavalry as they should be.

I want cavalry to utterly break unprepared, spearless infantry and at the same time take huge casualties against a block of determined spearmen. I just want them both to have more impact. Right now, they both feel ineffective.

I do not agree with this. First, because this system will be probably pretty hard to be used effectively by the AI and the result will be easier battles.

Second because as far I know, having a spear was not really that great against heavy cavalry. The historical evidence (at least the most popular one), show that shield walls or pikes were effective against cavalry but not spears, and always making use of favorable terrain where cavalry performed poorly. Spears were actually a pretty cheap (and pretty overall effective weapon) which a lot of peasants used in battles.

the rock paper scissors system is something what video games has brought to the table and I think it does not do anything good for a game like Bannerlord where is not as easy to use different groups of units (especially for the AI) and most of the time units fight together in a big messy and frenetic battle.
 
From 100 meters? The archers would be lucky to get 2 shots each, probably less since they would get in the way of each other and even if half the
Nah im talking about predicting where the cavs are gonna go not how they shoot. Since they are humans after all and will not just stand there waiting for the cavs to run them down but they sure have time to fire one or two salvos as said to at least try before they are in danger which is an risk the cavalry would be facing especially their horses since they are bigger mass if they are charging in a straight line but not that much though since its heads forward but then comes the turns and such. But these things are just speculations and who knows what the situation would bring. 20 men wouldnt be in the way of each other if they where all ready prepared on a line but yeah when the cavs where close ofc it would be an mess. Im just saying it would be stupid for 10 cavalry men to charge straight against 20 archers since its to predictable but **** do i know, i wasnt there at that time. we might have to ask Sun Tsu or someone or arrange an real combat situation for money manhunt style. Not sure if its legal though here so we have to arrange it in someones country where it is
 
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The best money making machine tactic is to just spam focus into smithing, farm for parts until you get certain special parts, and craft weapons with ridiculous costs like 100k+. Since I always lose patience with the grind, I generally just do that.

What kills me is that the crafting system only takes account of dmg value, everything else is borderline ignored, when in fact that level of detail and complexity of a weapon along with raw materials should be the pricing factor... ?‍♂️

I haven't tried the smithing since it is so boring but I think if people want to do that to make money it should be an option. I agree that the dmg value of the weapons 100% reflecting their price is BS. Hopefully, it is just a placeholder and we eventually get high tier weapons that also add some stats like management, morale, etc. 50% of most medieval income was spent on clothing and accessories to reflect social status and much of that stuff was overwhelmingly gaudy to modern eyes but having the gear to reflect a person's position was important and having even richer and more sumptuous gear could enhance people's perception of another's status.

The horse charge video posted by five bucks shows the situation quite well. The horses that broke through the lines continued relatively unscathed, while those that were stopped ended up being surrounded by infantry. The medieval cavalry charge depended on passing successfully THROUGH the enemy line, not crashing into it and then engaging in melee. The infantry were well aware of their vulnerability, so the only way to survive it was to not panic and stand firm in multiple lines to stop the horses, knowing full well that many of your group were about to die or suffer injury, whether the charge succeeded or failed. Too often, someone did panic, which resulted in a "devil take the hindmost" rush to escape, and a totally successful cavalry charge.

In M&B (in all its versions), a spear will stop a horse dead in its tracks, so any horse that contacts a spear does no damage to the infantry, rather than being impaled and then crashing into the spear-holder and anyone else unfortunate enough to be standing next to him. Realistically the horse would be mortally wounded, and the rider would fall and probably get hacked down, but the infantry line's cohesion is going to get demolished, with several men crushed or trampled by the dying horse, in addition to anyone who got lanced by the rider before the horse dropped. That doesn't happen in M&B: either the spear misses and the horseman gets to make his attack, or else the horse gets stopped with zero repercussions to the infantry. M&B is too lenient toward the horses that get wounded, but even more lenient toward the infantry who get charged.

Cavalry attacks wouldn't have been made in battle after battle if they weren't successful MOST of the time. The point is, there were failures, and plenty of them, but cavalry charges remained the primary form of attack for several hundred years. Since cavalry usually consisted of the nobility, there certainly would have been changes in tactics if those nobles EXPECTED to fail and die anywhere near as often as not. The counter was either your own cavalry, or hoping that your infantry line was deep enough and determined enough to absorb both the shock of impact and the steep casualties that a charge would inevitably inflict, without routing in panic.

Making horses cheap and readily available, and knights only moderately more costly than various militia and peasant levies means that you can afford to field them in unusually high proportions compared to the number of infantry on the battlefield. The ratio isn't sufficient to allow the infantry to form in 4-8 ranks; it rarely forms more than one or two deep, so cavalry charges should almost always succeed on reasonably level and open dry ground.

Yep, horses stopping from a charge to rearing up and horses falling dead straight away without bowling over a couple of infantry standing in front are things I hope TW fixes but I don't have high hopes. The extremely low cost of fielding heavy cavalry in Bannerlord are another problem that TW absolutely must address. Heavy cavalry was important on nearly every battlefield for 2000 years but was always in small quantities due to how difficult to train and equip. It is impossible to balance without reflecting that reality first and foremost. If heavy cavalry is easy to get in large numbers as it is currently in game... then yeah, cavalry probably should be less effective than in history.

I do think you might be slightly over-estimating heavy cavalry. Sure a couple of these guys you are arguing with are just trolls and saying ridiculous things but it is important to remember who was chronicling the battles and who the audience was. There is a lot of time spent talking about charges and the strength of the heavy cavalry but we know from archaeology and plenty of surviving pay records that the majority of soldiers in those battles were not cavalry. I do think that many of the knights of the era believed in their own myths which is why French and other knights did some really stupid charges because in their minds only the enemy heavy cavalry mattered, things like building ditches, planting stakes, making embankments, etc didn't really happen that often until 13th century and even then it took the rise of professional soldier class that weren't nobles and the concurrent growth of taxes to pay for permanent armies that saw infantry and their commander taking seriously shaping the terrain of the battlefield to decrease the enemies heavy cavalry from the chance to act decisively.

Nah im talking about predicting where the cavs are gonna go not how they shoot. Since they are humans after all and will not just stand there waiting for the cavs to run them down but they sure have time to fire one or two salvos to at least try before they are in danger which is an risk the cavalry would be facing especially their horses since they are bigger mass if they are charging in a straight line but not that much though since its heads forward. But these things are just speculations and who knows what the situation would bring. 20 men wouldnt be in the way of each other if they where all ready prepared on a line but yeah maybe. Im just saying it would be stupid for 10 cavalry men to charge straight against 20 archers

How many archers can successfully hit a charging cavalry horse/rider in 10-15 seconds? Look at the profile of a charging horse from the front- cavalryman is protected by his helmet, armour, and shield but mostly by the body of the horse he is riding. The horse is unlikely to keel over and die from a single arrow. Even deer and much smaller animals are often hit with arrows in the side from less than 100 meters and still run away by just a slight miss with your aim if you've ever spent time hunting. Taking down a horse that is excited running with its herd with 1 or 2 arrows from the front is not likely. Not even sure what spot could stop a horse in its tracks, maybe thru the eye? But horses have the eyes slightly on the sides of their head, not facing forward. If an arrow stuck in an artery the horse might bleed out in a few minutes but it would be able to complete the charge and even participate some in a melee following the charge. Horses are not that vulnerable to instant death by arrows- they can definitely be hurt and killed but arrow is much smaller than a spear and horses have a lot of muscle and bone protecting them on the front.

Main reason archers were effective against cavalry was they disrupted the formation as some horses did get bad wounds and broke formation but even more important they added a stand-off distance where cavalry waiting to charge or returning from a feint/false charge had to re-group to. Without archers, cavalry could stand just 30-40 meters away and charge at will whenever the infantry formation seemed to be wavering.When the cavalry has to stand 200-250 meters away that makes a big difference in how effective their charges can be. Bannerlord already has this or even more as archers are routinely killing from more than 200 meters. The main thing is that nothing in game reacts to their HP draining away. A horse or a warrior in the game fights at 100% capacity until HP pool is empty then immediately falls dead. That is not like real life at all. Without stamina the only ways TW could model this is to slow down/stun for 2-3 seconds models that take more than 10% total HP pool damage and have morale lower with damage. That would see some horses slowing and disrupting a charge as they take damage from arrows and especially light cavlary or low armoured units routing much more quickly as their morale decreases from damage taken.

This would mean timing cavalry charges is really important as going full into a prepared enemy is going to take a lot of extra damage and your cavalry is likely to rout shortly after getting into melee vs charging when the enemy is distracted or being covered by terrain from taking much damage and the cavalry charge morale hit + the damage makes the infantry receiving the charge rout. The main value of heavy cavalry would be in taking less damage due to armour vs what they could dish out and having higher morale that is more likely to outlast the infantry they charged. Plus hopefully some special formations like wedge that adds morale damage to their charge that lower-tier cavalry can't use.

A pike going into the chest of a charging horse, yeah- that will stop the horse. The press of eager and bloody-minded infantry behind the front line might deter the rider in command of the charge if he thinks they can't make it and in the battle accounts there are many mentions of cavalry charges turning away before going into the lines though that usually happened 30-50 meters out to give the horses time to slow/turn. Even later firearms battles in the Napoleonic wars saw horses that essentially were dead on their feet from taking 3-4 musket balls able to charge a further 30 meters before collapsing and that was a big part of the terror of the charge, this mass of cavalry are coming on and seem immune to your fire as an infantry on the frontline, only strict training and support of cannons and square formations stopped cavalry that was overall much less trained and of a lower quality than medieval warhorses and knights.

Not even getting into cavalry charging in wedge or the various horse armours available since the 12 century.
 
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I haven't tried the smithing since it is so boring but I think if people want to do that to make money it should be an option. I agree that the dmg value of the weapons 100% reflecting their price is BS. Hopefully, it is just a placeholder and we eventually get high tier weapons that also add some stats like management, morale, etc. 50% of most medieval income was spent on clothing and accessories to reflect social status and much of that stuff was overwhelmingly gaudy to modern eyes but having the gear to reflect a person's position was important and having even richer and more sumptuous gear could enhance people's perception of another's status.



Yep, horses stopping from a charge to rearing up and horses falling dead straight away without bowling over a couple of infantry standing in front are things I hope TW fixes but I don't have high hopes. The extremely low cost of fielding heavy cavalry in Bannerlord are another problem that TW absolutely must address. Heavy cavalry was important on nearly every battlefield for 2000 years but was always in small quantities due to how difficult to train and equip. It is impossible to balance without reflecting that reality first and foremost. If heavy cavalry is easy to get in large numbers as it is currently in game... then yeah, cavalry probably should be less effective than in history.

I do think you might be slightly over-estimating heavy cavalry. Sure a couple of these guys you are arguing with are just trolls and saying ridiculous things but it is important to remember who was chronicling the battles and who the audience was. There is a lot of time spent talking about charges and the strength of the heavy cavalry but we know from archaeology and plenty of surviving pay records that the majority of soldiers in those battles were not cavalry. I do think that many of the knights of the era believed in their own myths which is why French and other knights did some really stupid charges because in their minds only the enemy heavy cavalry mattered, things like building ditches, planting stakes, making embankments, etc didn't really happen that often until 13th century and even then it took the rise of professional soldier class that weren't nobles and the concurrent growth of taxes to pay for permanent armies that saw infantry and their commander taking seriously shaping the terrain of the battlefield to blunt the enemies heavy cavalry to act decisively.



How many archers can successfully hit a charging cavalry horse/rider in 10-15 seconds? Look at the profile of a charging horse from the front- cavalryman is protected by his helmet, armour, and shield but mostly by the body of the horse he is riding. The horse is unlikely to keel over and die from a single arrow. Even deer and much smaller animals are often hit with arrows in the side from less than 100 meters and still run away by just a slight miss with your aim if you've ever spent time hunting. Taking down a horse that is excited running with its herd with 1 or 2 arrows from the front is not likely. Not even sure what spot could stop a horse in its tracks, maybe thru the eye? But horses have the eyes slightly on the sides of their head, not facing forward. If an arrow stuck in an artery the horse might bleed out in a few minutes but it would be able to complete the charge and even participate some in a melee following the charge. Horses are not that vulnerable to instant death by arrows- they can definitely be hurt and killed but arrow is much smaller than a spear and horses have a lot of muscle and bone protecting them on the front.

Not even getting into cavalry charging in wedge or the various horse armours available since the 12 century.

Im not saying it would stop them but i would most def think twice by charging straight in front of 20 archers and if they didnt hit them all which is very unlikely since they are 10 against 20 it would still be an fight. If an arrow hits and sticks in to an horse, sure the horse would most prob have the adrenaline to stay up depending on the hit, but would be bleeding out after some time.... But since were talking about this game anyways 10 cavs against 20 archers isnt that much of a problem even if they can hit the horses at times and take them down with couple of shots depending on the armor. But i mean i see no games that have the realism by far anyways not even Arma or Flight Sims so idk why we keep bringing this **** up
 
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Im not saying it would stop them but i would most def think twice by charging straight in front of 20 archers and if they didnt hit them all which is very unlikely since they are 10 against 20 it would still be an fight. If an arrow hits and sticks in to an horse, sure the horse would most prob have the adrenaline to stay up depending on the hit, but would be bleeding out after some time.... But since were talking about this game anyways 10 cavs against 20 archers isnt that much of a problem even if they can hit the horses at times and take them down with couple of shots depending on the armor. But i mean i see no games that have the realism by far anyways not even Arma or Flight Sims so idk why we keep bringing this **** up

I don't think cavalry, especially heavy cavalry should have to think twice charging twice their number of archers in an open field with no obstructions and no cavalry or infantry protecting those archers. Even relatively light cavalry has a pretty good chance of running those archers down. Sure, the cavalry is likely to take some losses especially if lowly armoured but archers without polearm have to rely 100% on their bow/arrows which is much more difficult to use when people are trying to kill you in your face than shooting at some target on the range or even at some cavalry charging from 100 meters away.

Of course, no games have even half realism but TW and Bannerlord is especially sold on being somewhat realistic and there are some things TW can do relatively simplistically to improve the realism.

1. increase cost of heavy cavalry
2. add formations that cavalry can take
3. add command orders to target certain groups
4. add a stun/slow when HP pool takes a significant hit- even if only for horses it will make a big difference in disrupting charge
5. differentiate morale between cavalry a bit more and add morale damage onto charge damage for enemies within 30 meters of a charge
6. have horses continue to move forward at 50% of their speed just like other thrown objects when they die rather than collapse as they do now with attendant charge damage/bowling over infantry
 
Can agree on that with heavy armor though but then comes the balancing of the game to and we dont want OP cavs running around all over either.
However no need to circle jerk it either with hypotheses even if its fun to do so :smile: But can agree on some points here like 2 and 3 and im not against improving the cavs as long as they dont overdo em since i see no problem right now but some slight changes off course as ive mentioned and others to
 
I do not agree with this. First, because this system will be probably pretty hard to be used effectively by the AI and the result will be easier battles.

Second because as far I know, having a spear was not really that great against heavy cavalry. The historical evidence (at least the most popular one), show that shield walls or pikes were effective against cavalry but not spears, and always making use of favorable terrain where cavalry performed poorly. Spears were actually a pretty cheap (and pretty overall effective weapon) which a lot of peasants used in battles.

the rock paper scissors system is something what video games has brought to the table and I think it does not do anything good for a game like Bannerlord where is not as easy to use different groups of units (especially for the AI) and most of the time units fight together in a big messy and frenetic battle.
So what use would spears ever have in Bannerlord then? Maybe letting spears absolutely devastate cavalry is too much. Perhaps at least let them fend cavalry off better than a unit of without spears then.

Either way, there's very little reason for spearmen to exist at all when non-spearmen tend to defend themselves better against cavalry.
 
So what use would spears ever have in Bannerlord then? Maybe letting spears absolutely devastate cavalry is too much. Perhaps at least let them fend cavalry off better than a unit of without spears then.

Either way, there's very little reason for spearmen to exist at all when non-spearmen tend to defend themselves better against cavalry.
Spear men can practically one stab you if youre not careful so theres that to which i have no problem with making me respect them when i see them focusing at me when i come in. Theres also some guys were not talking about here that can be worse though even i they dont have range they are horse slaying beasts and the myth calls em twohanders.... And if youre lucky they only cut off your horsies legs in one blow then charge at you like an wild animal..but only if youre luck...Usually it goes black when you see their broad weapons turning up from the shadows


Watch the man in 6:55 something...hes a fugging maniac
 
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Spear men can practically one stab you if youre not careful so theres that to which i have no problem with making me respect them when i see them focusing at me when i come in. Theres also some guys were not talking about here that can be worse though even i they dont have range they are beasts and the myth calls em twohanders.... And if youre lucky they only cut of your horse legs in one blow then charge at you like an wild animal..but only if youre lucky
I'm going to say something potentially silly when I believe that two handers are roughly as good as they should be right now. Terrifying when they get into melee, but hopeless at a distance. If you are talking about polearm troops however, then it goes without saying that they're the absolutely best counter against melee cavalry. Or anything in melee, save for maybe two handed axemen.
 
I'm going to say something potentially silly when I believe that two handers are roughly as good as they should be right now. Terrifying when they get into melee, but hopeless at a distance. If you are talking about polearm troops however, then it goes without saying that they're the absolutely best counter against melee cavalry. Or anything in melee, save for maybe two handed axemen.
Talk to the sword or the axe because the horse aint worth it :wink: Can agree though that polearm and one handed spear is the best counter but also risky if youre riding that is since if the opponent lands their blow and youre not then you can be dead in one hit. But i do love couch jousting when opportunity arrives and the enemy invites for such because its a thrill every time

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So what use would spears ever have in Bannerlord then? Maybe letting spears absolutely devastate cavalry is too much. Perhaps at least let them fend cavalry off better than a unit of without spears then.

Either way, there's very little reason for spearmen to exist at all when non-spearmen tend to defend themselves better against cavalry.


I'm going to say something potentially silly when I believe that two handers are roughly as good as they should be right now. Terrifying when they get into melee, but hopeless at a distance. If you are talking about polearm troops however, then it goes without saying that they're the absolutely best counter against melee cavalry. Or anything in melee, save for maybe two handed axemen.

Spears should continue being effective against cavalry but not devasting in my opinion. And would be nice if spears would get better against infantry but due to multiplayer this is not possible.

Concerning Two Handers, they are currently OP, especially in captain mode according to this game mode players. This is the problem when something is devasting (for example two handers in melee), you need to add another devasting thing as counter (archers OP) in order to balance the game but the result is AI making a not good use of these devasting tools and the game feeling too easy.

After the archers deserved nerf, there is no anything devasting against shock infantry and for this reason they are dominating captain mode, and will receive some nerfs according to what I have read in MP section.

This is the reason because I do not like much the rock paper scissors system, because this usually means that the AI has a much harder work to handle it and the player has a much easier way to wreck the AI.

On the other hand, I am not saying that all units should be the same, just that while units should be different, anything should not be devasting against anything, reason because I like the current balancing between archers, infantry, and cavalry and just some tweaks should be made. For example: Melee cavalry is still pretty bad against other cavalry units, shock infantry is OP, archers could get some buffs and nerfs (while they are currently balanced, MP guys are complaining about how much they miss shoots), melee cavalry miss a lot when trying to kill fleeing units, etc.
 
1: Why should I?
2: I didn't say they are invalid excuses. There is always valid reason why one side won and other side lost. That does not change fact that when French charged at Crecy, they did not intend to loose.
3: Did Alexander's companions know that they can't "fully apply the force of their charge" against Persians or nobody told them again? Yet cavalry charges existed for centuries before that. And also existed for centuries after they stooped to use couched lance.
4: Speaking of couched lance, did you know that Norman cavalry at Hastings did not use couched lance? Or that Franks did not use couched lance at the battle of lake Antioch? Of course you did not. You're mixing things up without understanding timescale and relations between events.
5: They won the battle all right, they just failed every single of their cavalry charges.
6: 200, rest of the Franks did not have horses to ride so they charged on foot. You're pulling numbers out of thin air.
7: And even then when horses were supposed to actually collide in to them, they refused. I have already exposed that video elsewhere. When you watch that video in slow mo or by frames, you will see that those few horses that managed to pass through actually did not collide to anybody and those horses that could not because they would have to collide in to somebody, refused to do so.
8: That's the point, they don't look threatening.
9: I don't care when Machiavelli wrote The Prince. It's citation from Art of War, a different book. And Machiavelli wrote it at the time of maximum height of heavy cavalry development in Europe. Besides lesson is universal, horse will not willingly charge in to a spear point, does not matter how long the shaft of the spear is.
1: Because that's how an argument works. You're claiming that everyone else is wrong and that cavalry were actually super weak in real life in Bannerlord's time period, and if you're going to make that statement it's up to you to provide proof. I've already provided plenty of proof of cavalry charges being enormously effective against infantry and resulting in victory.
2: Sure. I didn't say they intended to lose. But how is that relevant to the discussion? If anything, the fact they didn't intend to lose and were overconfident is a strong indicator that people generally considered mounted cavalry charges to be quite an effective way of winning battles. Also, more importantly: Battles from the 1300s, with 200 years advancement of military technology and tactics, are largely irrelevant to discussions about Bannerlord's 1000s setting.
3: Nobody is saying cavalry charges didn't exist before the 1000s. I am saying that the level of power that could be achieved through a cavalry charge had not been seen up to that point. That's why Byzantine Emperor Manuel I went to the trouble of retraining all his cataphracts in "Frankish-style" couched lance techniques, because they were so effective.

I like how in your version of real life, some of the most elite troops in the world dedicated their lives to practicing something that was apparently super ineffective!

4: The Norman cavalry at hastings DID use couched lances, it's on the damn Bayeux Tapestry. More importantly this argument is about heavy cavalry charges in the 8th-12th centuries in general. Not just about couched lances. I've just looked at some of the primary sources for the Battle of the Lake of Antioch and I'm wondering where you get your information that they "didn't use couched lances".
5: If each charge gradually wears down the stamina and morale of the infantry on the ground until they finally break and run, and forces them to hunker down in a single place, and thus eventually wins the battle then it's not a failure, it's a success.
6: "At this point in the siege the crusaders had very few mounted knights at their disposal - only 700 total". Do you actually have a source or are you just going to keep accusing people of pulling numbers out of thin air while doing it yourself?
7: What BS are you spouting? The guy at the front was sent FLYING. At least 4 other people got bowled over by horses as well.
8: They look literally just as threatening as 90% of the spears that people are equipped with in Bannerlord, and you're also refusing to acknowledge that not all infantry in bannerlord even have spears, and none of them have super long pikes as were used in the 1300s and onward.
9: Mental slip since I associate his name with "The Prince", I knew it was a different book. Anyway, Machiavelli wrote Art of War in the 1500s. The world had fully adapted to the most effective possible way of dealing with cavalry by using VERY long pikes, hence the Pike and Shot era. But in the 1000s, and in Bannerlord itself, such super-long pikes were not a common battlefield weapon at all. Therefore, horses refusing to charge a super-long braced pikewall in the 1500s is not relevant to a discussion about a game set in the 1000s where you don't have super-long pikes and you can't brace them.

Here is further description of a devastating single cavalry charge. https://books.google.com.au/books?i...tly+timed#v=snippet&q=perfectly timed&f=false

The amazing thing here is that you actually think it's okay that highest-tier Vlandian cavalry take multiple attempts to even kill the ****tiest, weakest looters in the game. Somehow to you that's a great state of affairs, and you'll clutch at every straw you can to defend it.
 
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Thing is if you really study the kill meter for the data i provided you see that the cav units are constantly killing people and when it comes to cav agains cav it can take some time because they are pretty sturdy and depends on the charge same goes for infantry...Ive seen countless times Cav landing hits on infantry that took couple of hits without problem so every charge wont be a kill because of this to and depends. Sure they arent always on point with their weapons (targeting system) but they are sometimes really on point to (landing headshots in full pass thru charge even with one handed axes which is an skill of its own) and i dont want AI cav running around with aimbot either because its gonna be a ****show i can tell you that.
Ive been countless one shotted by enemy cav playing as infantry same with cav so theres that to and higher tier cavs can tank especially with their horsearmor....So i would say just adjust their AI behavior and some of their aim and they will be alright....Archers are fine atm along with their damage output and so are two handers. They should be powerful. When it comes to mp now thats another subject and should fall in mp diskussions not in sp since i think they are fine here except well glaive but that one is one for its own and falls more in to "spear"
 
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