Once and for all let's get workshops done

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When I see these examples of how insanely convoluted the economy simulation is, it just makes me lose hope that they'll ever be able to get it in balance. Does it have to be so complex? Couldn't they have just faked most of these economy effects and put their efforts into the systems that give more gameplay bang for the buck?

Like I guess its pretty cool that the clay that gets dug up in villages makes it way to the workshops to get turned into pottery and then transported by caravan around the world, but I wouldn't notice any difference if it just magically spawned in the shops.
I have to say I personally disagree with this sentiment. I think having a intricate simulation economy opens the possibility to do really cool things with it. Particualarly as it integrates into settlement management and development.

These systems are going to need a lot of iteration with player feed back. However the impression I get is that they are trying to divine a working system without utilizing player input, a poor use of early access in my opinion.

I would have thought by now we would have had more balancing problems worked on, and blatantly broken parts fixed. So I can relate to people's impatients, but I think a more in depth simulation would make for a better game.

Whether such a game is within the scope of what the Dev will be enabled to pull off?
For that I havnt lost hope, but I havnt seen a lot to base that hope upon.
 
When I see these examples of how insanely convoluted the economy simulation is, it just makes me lose hope that they'll ever be able to get it in balance. Does it have to be so complex? Couldn't they have just faked most of these economy effects and put their efforts into the systems that give more gameplay bang for the buck?

Like I guess its pretty cool that the clay that gets dug up in villages makes it way to the workshops to get turned into pottery and then transported by caravan around the world, but I wouldn't notice any difference if it just magically spawned in the shops.

It isn't really convoluted though. I mean, if you're looking at the raw code and don't understand programming, it seems like there is a bunch of extraneous stuff in there. But the fundamentals are fairly straight-forward. Inputs come from villages, outputs come from workshops, caravans help shift both types from places where they are cheap and common to where they are scarce and expensive. Increasing prosperity acts, in part, as a feedback loop to keep towns from getting too large.

All that helps support a merchant playthrough, which wasn't nearly as doable in Warband. It also makes things like hardcore raiding a kingdom to the dirt have far more tangible effects than in Warband, where raiding didn't even stop the AI from generating full parties to chase you with.

That said, there are places where it is touchy -- and you can easily blow up your playthrough's economy by messing with things you don't fully understand (personal experience talking) -- but deep systems take serious balancing.

They also put far more effort into the physics-based weapons/damage system, as far as I can tell, so this isn't TW dumping most of their effort and attention towards some niche system.
 
Workshops seem to be far-far away from being finished. Judging by the info on the "Clan" tab, there should be a workshop levels, for example. At the moment we can't upgrade any of our workshops. By the way, I remember one of the dev blogs that mentioned "Horse breeding workshop" or something like this. Where is it?
 
My little experiments with the file "Taleworlds.Core.dll" showed that an increase in the number of goods consumed increases by about the same number of income from workshops. For example, doubling the consumption of jewelry and tools has doubled the income from the respective workshops. The main reason for the current low income from workshops and from trade is the low number of goods consumed by the population. Goods accumulate in the markets of cities and their surplus reduces world (Calradian) prices. I bow my head to the developers for creating a plausible economic system. It remains only to finalize it, I advise you to start by increasing the number of consumption of goods by the population.
 
Wait, did you double the consumption of grain as well?
No, I just doubled my consumption of tools and jewelry in order to see the new loot from the workshops. I increased my consumption of pottery by a third, the income from the workshops increased by a third too.
P.S. If you stupidly double your food consumption, then a terrible famine will begin in the cities. I increased the consumption of foodstuffs by 15-25 percent - there is still enough food in the city, but trading has become a little more profitable.
 
One thing I've thought about as a potential solution for workshop profitability is to create a few more workshop types; that way you have more production variety, and the supply of certain manufactured goods doesn't become quite as saturated. There might just be too few workshop types for 55 towns, leading to oversupply problems.

This can even be done without disrupting the demand balance for certain consumables (I think). For instance, you could create a new workshop type called a Bakery. This workshop would turn grain into bread at roughly the same rate and input/output ratio that a Brewery turns grain into beer. If you then change half of the Breweries in the world to Bakeries, you will halve the supply rate of beer in the world, driving the price up (and increasing workshop income), but bread will then supplant the missing half of the food, keeping overall consumption of foodstuffs by a town steady. The number of grain used as a workshop input will stay the same (half for beer, half for bread), and the total number of available food items produced as an output will stay roughly the same (half beer, half bread), but now each specific item is more valuable, making both Breweries and Bakeries more viable income sources.

It's hard to predict all of the effects this might have on the economy without testing it, however. Since the price of goods does not follow a linear curve, halving the supply of a specific item does not necessarily mean consumption for that item will be reduced propotionally, because the price of that item may increase by more than double.
 
One thing I've thought about as a potential solution for workshop profitability is to create a few more workshop types; that way you have more production variety, and the supply of certain manufactured goods doesn't become quite as saturated. There might just be too few workshop types for 55 towns, leading to oversupply problems.

This can even be done without disrupting the demand balance for certain consumables (I think). For instance, you could create a new workshop type called a Bakery. This workshop would turn grain into bread at roughly the same rate and input/output ratio that a Brewery turns grain into beer. If you then change half of the Breweries in the world to Bakeries, you will halve the supply rate of beer in the world, driving the price up (and increasing workshop income), but bread will then supplant the missing half of the food, keeping overall consumption of foodstuffs by a town steady. The number of grain used as a workshop input will stay the same (half for beer, half for bread), and the total number of available food items produced as an output will stay roughly the same (half beer, half bread), but now each specific item is more valuable, making both Breweries and Bakeries more viable income sources.

It's hard to predict all of the effects this might have on the economy without testing it, however. Since the price of goods does not follow a linear curve, halving the supply of a specific item does not necessarily mean consumption for that item will be reduced propotionally, because the price of that item may increase by more than double.
Correct me if I'm wrong but there are 2 types of products that there are no workshops for salt and fish. It would be nice if there were some kind of workshop for those also. I'm not sure what you could do with salt, but fish could be made into fish cakes or smoked fish or something similar and used as another type of food too.
 
One thing I've thought about as a potential solution for workshop profitability is to create a few more workshop types; that way you have more production variety, and the supply of certain manufactured goods doesn't become quite as saturated. There might just be too few workshop types for 55 towns, leading to oversupply problems.

This can even be done without disrupting the demand balance for certain consumables (I think). For instance, you could create a new workshop type called a Bakery. This workshop would turn grain into bread at roughly the same rate and input/output ratio that a Brewery turns grain into beer. If you then change half of the Breweries in the world to Bakeries, you will halve the supply rate of beer in the world, driving the price up (and increasing workshop income), but bread will then supplant the missing half of the food, keeping overall consumption of foodstuffs by a town steady. The number of grain used as a workshop input will stay the same (half for beer, half for bread), and the total number of available food items produced as an output will stay roughly the same (half beer, half bread), but now each specific item is more valuable, making both Breweries and Bakeries more viable income sources.

It's hard to predict all of the effects this might have on the economy without testing it, however. Since the price of goods does not follow a linear curve, halving the supply of a specific item does not necessarily mean consumption for that item will be reduced propotionally, because the price of that item may increase by more than double.
Curious why you would go with this over just modifying base demand or supply? Not against more workshops but the other seems an easy solution, and will be a lever that needs to be adjusted regardless.
Correct me if I'm wrong but there are 2 types of products that there are no workshops for salt and fish. It would be nice if there were some kind of workshop for those also. I'm not sure what you could do with salt, but fish could be made into fish cakes or smoked fish or something similar and used as another type of food too.
Add to that list dates, fur, and horses, if im not mistaken.
 
Curious why you would go with this over just modifying base demand or supply? Not against more workshops but the other seems an easy solution, and will be a lever that needs to be adjusted regardless.

Add to that list dates, fur, and horses, if im not mistaken.
Fur is a component of leather making and horses also are consider leather workshops.
 
Fur is a component of leather making and horses also are consider leather workshops.
How does this work? Are horses first slaughtered and turned into hides and meat?

The fur thing seems weird to me, like it makes sense, But I would have assumed the furs symbolized ingame would be of a value higher than leather, given the sources are largely non agricultural. I know that might not be how it works currently.

I always assumed cows were the primary source of hides, do sheep also result in hides?
 
I only purchase shops in the mid-late game where I have tons of denars and I don't know how I can spend them.
But they are meant to help snowball the denars for early game, such a pity it doesn't work that way. Hope the devs fix that, too.
 
How does this work? Are horses first slaughtered and turned into hides and meat?

The fur thing seems weird to me, like it makes sense, But I would have assumed the furs symbolized ingame would be of a value higher than leather, given the sources are largely non agricultural. I know that might not be how it works currently.

I always assumed cows were the primary source of hides, do sheep also result in hides?
Iirc it's cows, pigs, and horses
 
Curious why you would go with this over just modifying base demand or supply? Not against more workshops but the other seems an easy solution, and will be a lever that needs to be adjusted regardless.
I guess my concern with increasing the demand values is that ouput items will be consumed by their manufacturing towns more often, and thus, goods will not be circulated around to other towns as well. There will be fewer total items in the world overall.

I look at it like this: splitting the total amount of goods available into more groups will allow each item to be more profitable without actually reducing the abundance of goods in the world, which would hopefully avoid any widespread starvation in the towns that rely on goods to be shipped in.

My reasoning could be flawed; economics is not my strong suit, lol. There could also be additional factors to consider that I don't know about, as it's hard to know if there's something in the code I've missed.

Iirc it's cows, pigs, and horses
It's cows, sheep, and hogs haha. Furs, horses, and sumpter horses are not used in any workshop productions, but they add prosperity to a town when they're consumed.
 
I guess my concern with increasing the demand values is that ouput items will be consumed by their manufacturing towns more often, and thus, goods will not be circulated around to other towns as well. There will be fewer total items in the world overall.

I look at it like this: splitting the total amount of goods available into more groups will allow each item to be more profitable without actually reducing the abundance of goods in the world, which would hopefully avoid any widespread starvation in the towns that rely on goods to be shipped in.

My reasoning could be flawed; economics is not my strong suit, lol. There could also be additional factors to consider that I don't know about, as it's hard to know if there's something in the code I've missed.


It's cows, sheep, and hogs haha. Furs, horses, and sumpter horses are not used in any workshop productions, but they add prosperity to a town when they're consumed.
Oh my bad I thought I read they did. Thanks for the info, I must of read sheep and mixed that up with horses. (y)
 
So what's the best choice of workshop in 1.5.3 ? i don't know what to choose to get the best income.
Pen cannoc got three village who produce clay. Is this a good idea to buy the Pottery Shop ? :unsure:
 
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