TheStorm的最近内容
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Propaganda Posters
My favourite WW2 posters and caricatures.
Axis:
The power of Germany grows every day... that's why the Germany will win!
The hour is coming... (Russian phraseologism)
Soviet:
Fight to the bitter end!
"Whoever will come to us with a sword, from a sword will perish" Alexander Nevsky
To the West!
Caricarures:
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Holodomor
Ok. All this conversation is so tiresome and it takes so much time. I acknowledge myself beaten. Congratulations, Jhessail!
P.S. Russians sometimes give up.
- TheStorm
- 帖子 #69
- 论坛: The Sage's Guild - Historical Discussion
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Holodomor
I meant, that all this discussion, which you revived according to my old post from the different theme, is off-topic.Jhessail 说:
Brzezinski’s books aren’t that super-credible for me, but some of his ideas deserve attention.
Actually, his book reflects reality, throwing off the mask from the world’s economy. And this version is approved by many historical and ongoing events. One good example: Nicolae Ceaușescu was the only socialist political leader that was murdered at the close of the 80th and 90th . Ceaușescu decided to repay Romania's foreign debts. He organised a referendum and managed to change the constitution, adding a clause that barred Romania from taking foreign loans in the future. He also announced that the revolution of 1989 was organized by the foreign countries.Jhessail 说:
You are right in some cases, as “Falsificators of history” Stalin edited himself. But SovInformBureau was writing by its own.Jhessail 说:
I expected some kind of a work, debunking exactly this historical note “stone by stone”. Ok, can you suggest me what book is better from the list, cause I don’t think I will be able to read all of them.
I don’t remember the exact numbers, but the amount of Germans being trained was inessential to affect on something. And for both sides, German-Soviet trade wasn’t in the top of the list. This situation changed in the 1939-41.Jhessail 说:
Stalin offered to join the Axis? May be Hitler offered Stalin to join the Axis and Stalin refused?Jhessail 说:
This normal capitalist business is quite selective sometimes, isn’t it? Where is capitalist favourite principle “Money above everything” towards Soviet Union in the 20th, 30th? And usually that help turned out badly for Russia, bright example Poland in the 1918-21.Even if we accept this version, it doesn’t deny the fact, that German economy and heavy industry was revived only due to the US/British help.Jhessail 说:
Yes, why not? Moreover, all the Czechoslovakia (which was later disintegrated) should have joined Wehrmacht. Carpathian Ukraine those days was a part of Czechoslovakia and it would appear as a principal cause for the German-Soviet war. The turning point of all pre-WWII history was Hitler’s decision to reject Carpathian Ukraine’s offer to join Wehrmacht. Britain changed its policy on diametrically opposite only after this event happened.Jhessail 说:
I want to ask you a few questions, if you’ll consider my interpretation illogical. Why Britain and France ignored Soviet offer to create an alliance and stop Hitler from taking Czechoslovakia in the first days of September, 1938? Or at least, why they didn’t let Czechoslovakia, which has had a strong army and powerful industry to defend itself?
It wasn’t the USSR, who initiated negotiations, so what is wrong?Jhessail 说:
The way it was originally written:Jhessail 说:
On September 17, 1939, the Soviet troops, at the order of the Soviet Government, crossed the prewar Soviet-Polish border, occupied Western Byelorussia and Western Ukraine and proceeded to build defenses there along the western line of the Ukrainian and Byelorussian territories. In the main, it was the line which is know in history as the "Curzon Line" established at the Versailles Conference of the Allies.
A few days later the Soviet Government signed pacts of mutual assistance with the Baltic States, providing for the stationing of Soviet Army garrisons on the territory of Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, the organization of Soviet air fields and the building of naval bases there.
Thus the foundation was laid for the "Eastern" front.
I disagree only with the last paragraph, as Finland would never unleash a one-on-one war against the Soviet Union. It is Obviously, that the USSR was agressor.Jhessail 说:
While the situation with regard to the security of the USSR was more or less satisfactory on the western frontiers, at a considerable distance from Moscow, Minsk, and Kiev, the same could not be said about the northern frontier of the USSR. Here, at a distance of some 32 kilometers from Leningrad, stood Finnish troops, the majority of whose commanding officers oriented themselves toward Hitler Germany. The Soviet Government was well aware of the fact that the fascist elements among the ruling circles of Finland, who were closely connected with the Hitlerites and who wielded strong influence in the Finnish Army, were striving to capture Leningrad. The fact that Halder, the Chief of the General Staff of Hitler's Army, arrived in the summer of 1939 in Finland to instruct the highest leaders of the Finnish Army, could not be regarded as a mere accident. There could hardly be any doubt that the leading circles of Finland were in league with the Hitlerires, that they wanted to turn Finland into a springboard for Hitler Germany's attack upon the USSR.
It is therefore not surprising that all the attempts of the USSR to find a common language with the Finnish Government with a view to improving relations between the two countries remained futile.
The Government of Finland declined, one after another, all the friendly proposals of the Soviet Government, the purpose of which was to guarantee the security of the USSR, particularly of Leningrad-and this in spite of the fact that the Soviet Union was willing to meet Finland halfway and to satisfy her legitimate interests.
The Finnish Government declined the proposal of the USSR to move the Finnish border on the Karelian Isthmus a few dozen kilometers, although the Soviet Government was willing to compensate Finland with an area twice as large in Soviet Karelia. The Finnish Government also declined the proposal of the USSR to conclude a pact of mutual assistance, thereby demonstrating that the security of the USSR from the direction of Finland remained unguaranteed.
By these and similar hostile actions and provocations on the Soviet-Finnish border, Finland unleashed the war against the Soviet Union.
You are welcome.Jhessail 说:
The information is from the memoirs of Felix Chuev “140 conversations with Molotov”. Is it wrong?Jhessail 说:- TheStorm
- 帖子 #65
- 论坛: The Sage's Guild - Historical Discussion
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Holodomor
Stalin’s government wasn’t a famine forecast organization. Grain export in 1931 (5.18 mil tons) is nearly equal to such in 1930 (4.85 mil tons), but as we know widespread famine didn’t occur in 1931. And what about the 1932 export (1.8 mil tons), it would be better to look at the per month export diagram (http://istmat.info/node/8843). Light blue line is a “total sum of 4 breads”:Jhessail 说:
During the first symptoms of famine it was interrupted for 3 month. Most likely, underestimation of the famine scales made Soviet government to renew export.
In fact, government allotted food supplies, mostly for Ukraine, from the Fonds. It is proved by a huge amount of fresh declassified archival data (http://www.rusarchives.ru/publication/hunger-ussr/content.shtml). Archival data compilation about the Soviet help to Ukraine in someone’s blog (http://goldnike-777.blogspot.ru/2012/01/1932-33.html).Jhessail 说:
Moreover, M. Tauger isn’t a supporter of Holodomor version, despite the widespread view of other Western politically motivated analysts. For example, his argument with Wheatcroft (http://www.as.wvu.edu/mtauger/Reply%20to%20Wheatcroft.htm). A quote from M. Tauger’s work “The 1932 harvest and the famine of 1933”:
And about the State-owned food shops you have mentioned some time ago. I think it was this (http://www.rusarchives.ru/publication/hunger-ussr/1933_26.shtml):
Decision of Politbureau about the free bread trade in Kiev. 20 March 1933.
1) Narcomsnab (People’s commissariat of provision) should put in action a free rye bread trade in Kiev, at the prices as in Kharkov, after the 15th of April, opening 70 shops for these purposes; immediately start spadework.
2) SNK Committee of Procurements should allot 1 million poods of rye for this deal.
Actually, no. What information, which you consider as significant, I ignored?Jhessail 说:
P.S. I will answer on the first part tomorrow, due to lack of time.- TheStorm
- 帖子 #61
- 论坛: The Sage's Guild - Historical Discussion
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Holodomor
Jhessail 说:
I can ask you the same question. How my previous topic message is connected with the famine of 1932-33?
Jhessail 说:
You don’t have to be neither an expert nor a writer and a few read books should be enough to get the basis of how it works.
Jhessail 说:
First, it wasn’t Stalin, who was writing SovInformBureau materials. Second, can you, please, give me a source, where exactly this historical note is debunked? Third, can you cite at least one Stalin’s lie as an example?
Jhessail 说:
Don’t generalize, it’s exactly mine point of view on patriotism, which is based on the restoration of the distorted history. Other has their own foundations for it.
Jhessail 说:
He conducted “destalinization” due to different cause. Khrushchev had a personal enmity towards Stalin. His son, Leonid, shot to death major of red army. It wasn’t the first time, when Leonid was shooting being drunk (first time Leonid was forgiven, as he killed nobody). N. Khrushchev groveled at Stalin's feet, crying and begging to forgive his son. Stalin refused to satisfy Khrushchev’s request and Leonid was sentenced to death.
As for the topic, I can add that in 1934 the USSR completely banned the grain export in order to prevent famine appearance in the future.
Jhessail 说:
I forgot to ask, you are doubtful about the authenticity of this document or the content it includes?
- TheStorm
- 帖子 #44
- 论坛: The Sage's Guild - Historical Discussion
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Holodomor
Yes, Brzezinski is quite a russophobian person and he is proud of his contribution to the USSR collapse. For example his Interview to the French media in 1998:
Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs that the American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahiddin in Afghanistan six months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a key role in this affair. Is this correct?
Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahiddin began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan on December 24, 1979. But the reality, closely guarded until now, is completely otherwise: Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention [emphasis added].
Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked for a way to provoke it?
B: It wasn't quite like that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.
Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against secret US involvement in Afghanistan, nobody believed them. However, there was an element of truth in this. You don't regret any of this today?
B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter, essentially: "We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war". Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war that was unsustainable for the regime, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.
Q: And neither do you regret having supported Islamic fundamentalism, which has given arms and advice to future terrorists?
B: What is more important in world history? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some agitated Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?
Q: "Some agitated Moslems"? But it has been said and repeated: Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today...
B: Nonsense! It is said that the West has a global policy in regard to Islam. That is stupid: There isn't a global Islam. Look at Islam in a rational manner, without demagoguery or emotionalism. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5 billion followers. But what is there in common among fundamentalist Saudi Arabia, moderate Morocco, militarist Pakistan, pro-Western Egypt, or secularist Central Asia? Nothing more than what unites the Christian countries...
Yes, that wasn’t his “great discovery”. Actually, first note about it – “Falsificators of history”, dated with 1948.
I have no doubts, that you do clearly understand how the international financial system works.
I agree, it’s not free of propaganda. But I find the vast majority of given facts truthful.
I would call it patriotism, which has nothing to do with racism, chauvinism, etc. Only brainless fools (like Russian nazi and oppositionists) can shout “Stop feeding the Caucasus” and beating migrants in a historically multi-cultural country.
You are right, but I see no adequate reasons to admit Khrushchev’s propaganda.- TheStorm
- 帖子 #29
- 论坛: The Sage's Guild - Historical Discussion
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Holodomor
The Soviet archival data about the grain purchases from Persia, in Russian (http://forum.meta.ua/topic/p/6971976.html):
In 1932 the USSR imported:
138,3 thousand tons of bread
66,9 thousand tons of rice
53,3 thousand heads of cattle and 183,2 thousand heads of small cattle
9,3 thousand tons of meat
Ivan Chyhyryn (Иван Чигирин) spent 3 years collecting archival data and arrived at a conclusion, that Stalin did everything to avoid famine. He published a book: “Myth and truth about the «Stalin’s Holodomor»” (Миф и правда о «Сталинском голодоморе»). He simply destroyed the Holodomor propaganda version.
I have read such a books, but of Russian authors, at school and university. Do you think I don't know the "traditional" history? I just find another interpretation of some major historical events much closer to the truth.
Zbigniew Brzezinski (geopolitical books), Guido Preparata (“Conjuring Hitler”), John Perkins (“Confessions of an Economic Hit Man”), Soviet Information Bureau (“Falsificators of history”) – are conspiracy-lunatics too?
- TheStorm
- 帖子 #22
- 论坛: The Sage's Guild - Historical Discussion
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Holodomor
Jhessail 说:
Do you really think Western countries were interested in rendering aid to the Soviet Union, if this famine was mostly provoked by their trade policy?
Off-topic: I remember “Kursk” submarine tragedy, when it sank/was torpedoed. Russia rejected the western help offer and I think this decision wasn’t groundless. Btw, the French have shot a good documentary film about it: “Kursk - a submarine in troubled waters”. This film explains a lot.
Jhessail 说:
State-owned food shops? May be food speculators, which also appeared during the Leningrad blockade?
I have asked you not to harass me with ridiculous comments, and I’m not a coward.Jhessail 说:
There isn’t a single world about Jews, Zionism, NWO, freemasons or other conspiracy. This is a detailed book of banking system history and all the information is based on historical facts attended with the logical conclusions.
Two years ago, when I started reading his book about the prewar and WWII period, I was checking all the events using “Soviet Foreign Policy” archive books. That’s why I see no reasons not to believe him.
N. Starikov attains renown in Russia quite fast. His last book about the Stalin’s biography is leading in sales. It even appeared in the Forbes list “Top 10 Nonfiction Books of 2012” (http://ritemail.blogspot.ru/2013/01/top-10-nonfiction-books-of-2012.html).
His bestseller “Rouble Nationalization.The Way to Russia`s Freedom” had taken the 4th place in the 2011 Russian list of nonfiction books sales.
People find his explanations of some historical events well-reasoned. So, I still insist for you to read it. You will find a huge amount of facts, you have never meet before in your historical books. At least it will give you a good “food for the brain”, while you’ll be debunking his historical outlook.- TheStorm
- 帖子 #20
- 论坛: The Sage's Guild - Historical Discussion
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Holodomor
I just can't ignore this topic and will add one more major cause for the famine of 1932-33.
Young Soviet Union could offer 3 type of goods to the Western countries: grain, minerals and gold/coined gold (Chervonets). But in 1924 capitalist countries refused to accept gold as payment when trading with Soviet Union. It is known as a “gold blockade”.
In the same time the essential need for the USSR was to create its own heavy industry and this process was put into action in 1929. Moreover, industrialization should be carried out with the shortest possible delay. This situation was summed up by Stalin in 1931 in the following words:
Machine tools for the new factories were primarily purchased in UK, USA and France.
During the first five-year plan (1929-32) Soviet Union produced 100.4 thousand tractors. Appeared new problem – there were about 25 millions of farms and solitary farmers simply couldn’t afford farming machines. Government decided to unite them in kolkhozy and sovhozy. That was the chief reason for collectivization.
1928-1933 was a period of very unstable relations USSR-England, USSR-France and USSR-USA.
In 1930 the Soviet Union took the second place in import of American machines and equipment, and in 1931 - the first place. In summer of 1930 Washington used discrimination measures against Soviet export.
The same trade restrictions were made by France in 1930.
April 16 - July 1, 1933 British Trade Embargo on Soviet Union which affected 80% of Soviet export.
First, Western countries refused to accept gold in payment, then everything else (mostly lumber, oil and other minerals) except grain. Such a trade policy was quite weird, as we remember that these countries faced Great depression.
Soviet Union had two options to choose from:
1) To succumb on provocation and to slacken industrialization speed;
2) To keep the same industrialization speed, selling only grain, but to run high risks of famine occur. All the hopes were set on the rich harvest. As we know, in 1933 harvest was poor and it led to unfortunate results.
Attempts were urgently made to get supplies of grain from Persia, where they had agreed to accept gold. The authorities did not have time, however, as a catastrophe was already underway.
Stalin never planned to commit genocide of Ukrainians. Holodomor version is used for anti-Stalin and anti-Soviet propaganda. Nowadays it’s used to don’t let Russia and Ukraine unite again.
Some links:- TheStorm
- 帖子 #13
- 论坛: The Sage's Guild - Historical Discussion
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Soviet Story
Even if you are right about the ex-Soviet figures it doesn’t deny the fact that Latvian SS was mentioned in a huge amount of war crimes. Only brainwashed Nazi Latvians disclaim it.Roach XI the Magnificent 说:
This “****hole” contains 30-40% of the world’s resources, all the Mendeleev's periodic table of the elements in enormous quantities.
Lol. What can you know about our media and Putin?
- TheStorm
- 帖子 #71
- 论坛: The Sage's Guild - Historical Discussion
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Soviet Story
First – you didn’t put a question. Second – what was I supposed to answer, if the fact that Czechoslovak economy was stronger before 1938 is undisputed?BenKenobi 说:
It was a nice thing for the USSR, but Soviet Union did everything it could to help Eastern European countries to develop. And the fact that these countries were hostages in our geopolitical game with the USA is also undisputed. The circumstances didn’t let the USSR to act in a different way.- TheStorm
- 帖子 #70
- 论坛: The Sage's Guild - Historical Discussion
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Soviet Story
MMontage 说:
Yes, and who cares that Germans perpetrated genocide of 16 million of Russian civilians during the occupation? I think we could relax this leash a little bit more. But still, it was nothing in compare with an Allies carpet bombings of German cities.- TheStorm
- 帖子 #62
- 论坛: The Sage's Guild - Historical Discussion
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Soviet Story
BenKenobi 说:
Ok, it's my turn to be grateful! I appretiate contribution of Czechoslovak legion in initiating civil war in Russia, as we know it has started from the revolt of Czechoslovak legion. Thanks for plundering Siberia! Also, it was really nice of you to betray Kolchak in order to steal part of his gold, during the evacuation. Btw White power is still gratefull for the Great Siberian Ice March, while Czechoslovak legion was travelling in a warm trains.- TheStorm
- 帖子 #61
- 论坛: The Sage's Guild - Historical Discussion
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Soviet Story
Yes, my fault, Slovakia.kurczak 说:
I hope you are wrong...- TheStorm
- 帖子 #57
- 论坛: The Sage's Guild - Historical Discussion
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Soviet Story
Jhessail 说:
"N. Starikov: Rouble Nationalization.The Way to Russia`s Freedom"
http://nstarikov.ru/books/20803
But, please, don't harass me with a ridiculous comments before reading it. Ok?
Of course not all the old Guard Bolshevik, that Stalin got rid of in the Purges, were saboteurs and spies. Some of them were dissidents(you named one of them - Bukharin). Also I have already stated about the Stalin's mistake of assignment Ezhov as a head of NKVD, who condemned a lot of innocent people. But still you can't completely refute the assasination plot of Stalin (Moscow Trials). Russia experienced a huge amount of assasination plots throughout its history.
Actually there are some of them in Russia. Also I know reasonable English authors, but they are writing usually about the world economy. For example, bestseller: John Perkins: Confessions of an Economic Hit Man.- TheStorm
- 帖子 #56
- 论坛: The Sage's Guild - Historical Discussion