Recent content by SirLosealot

Sweynforkbeard said:

As many others probably also do, when the AI is defending I will try to bait the enemy cavalry back to my archers. The results are not always all that impressive.

But, one time, I must have managed to hit that "perfect angle" so when I looked behind me it was like the scene from "the last samurai" with the whole enemy cavalry force being mowed down. The ground was littered with dead men and horse.

I seriously laughed so hard that I managed to spill coffee all over my desk

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You mean melee cavalry or HA? They act differently. Melee cavalry dont go in circle so the foot archers will have better time shooting them.

If it is about HA. Just camp at the corner of the map, when the HA got stuck in the corner trying to move in circles, that is when the massacre begins. Still, that is more like a workaround or an exploit and I grew bored of that "tactic" fast.

So it is not about how to counter HA because it is easy to do so. It is more about the accuracy of the AI foot archers vs HA, the way they aim that is the problem.

kweassa said:

Lateral movement makes targeting extremely difficult in real life as well. Especially with premodern weapons.

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True. That is why I did the second test. To see if I could shoot down the rider in 1 vs 1. And I did. By estimating and leading the shot AHEAD of the HA. Which I did not see the AI foot archers had done in the first test. They more likely aimed AT me than AHEAD of me. Resulting in most of the arrows flew past BEHIND me. That is what I want to be changed, at least they should lead the shot a little since it is only logical doing so.

Sweynforkbeard said:

May I say that I would prefer that they dont become too good at it

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The thing is.. It is very weird seeing them doing very well against infantry. But suddenly against HA, they become incompetent. Surely there can be some middle ground and not 2 polar opposites between infantry and HA. I dont believe they should hit HA as well as hitting infantry. As you can see in the second test, I tried to be a foot archer shooting at 1 HA. It was hard, but after like... 2 tries to get used to it., I can reliably shot the rider down (except with longbow, longbow sucks). And that was 1 vs 1, it is even easier to hit someone in a HA formation.

Sweynforkbeard said:

The AI still handle moving targets better than it did in Warband.

In Warband you could literally singlehandedly clean an entire army of its arrows by just circling around them, with virtually zero risk. It is not quite as riskfree in Bannerlord.

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I notice that they are godlike when it comes to stationary target vs stationary target and they do alright when a target is moving somewhat in front of them. But from what I have seen after the test, going in circles is what makes the AI struggles. So many arrows wasted on empty space just behind my horse, some hit the rear of my horse, and none hit the front of my horse. It seems the AI's estimation is a bit off and it needs to lead the shot a bit more. The preferable area to hit is, of course, the middle where there is a chance of hitting the rider.

Ananda_The_Destroyer said:

The way to deal with them is to basically position ranged at the back left of map

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Yeah the problem is never about how to counter HA as the corner tactic always works, for a few times, and then you got bored of it. Because it just seems like a workaround or even an exploit but if you don't use it, prepare to have a bad time.

But wait, what if we use melee cavalry to intercept the HA formation, both killing them and slowing them down for the archers? Firstly, again, it is only a workaround, not an actual solution to why foot archers are bad against HA. The second problem is....

Ananda_The_Destroyer said:

often khan's guards

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These guys kill everything, they kill at range with bows, they kill in melee with their "totally-balanced" glaives. Using melee cavalry to try to stop them? Then you are, again, in for a bad time. But that is a different problem for a different day.

geala said:

So it is more difficult to close distance and fight against a spear formation

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Correct me if I am wrong but from what I have seen from @kweassa post, he criticizes the mod for exactly this point. He wanted the ability to push enemy back in a spear/pike formation which the mod does not provide. When two formations clashed, they still... hugged each other tightly with or without the mod.

kweassa said:

But again, where's the distance? The fight itself, like in the case of individual combat, has no difference at all. There's no distance between the lines, and just shields clash into shields with zero distance.

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I see. So basically the mod turns spear into a thrusting sword in which it deals normal damage at any distance within its reach. The mod also removed some animation blocks in formation.

kweassa said:

However, if a change to the AI is not an option that can be explored. then a fix needs to be applied not to how the spear deals damage, but how it can keep the opponent at bay -- which is why I've suggested the spears to get a much more powerful pushback effect.

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Agreed with the pushback effect. That would create a difference between sword and spear. Right now, a spear is like a sword but worse.

archaicwarrior said:

Pike formation - Phalanx ?? is this implemented yet ? I don't think it is ??

.I haven't tested it yet.

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Nope. Not implemented. Wish it was tho. Spear and its formation seem to be underperformed in the current state.

kweassa said:

As with all thrusts, when the opponent is too close, the thrust fails to deliver enough damage to activate the threshold of where animation canceling happens -- or "stop hit" if you prefer hand-to-hand combat terminology. Once the opponent is within that threshold distance of the spear, the spearman basically becomes a punching bag.

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Interesting. I think I saw and felt this, just didn't know how to describe it.

kweassa said:

Then, add in the fact that in a combat formation, the soldiers don't move. Spear-type troops, are locked into combat formation, and therefore, they are not at a liberty to try to gain enough distance to be able to damage opponents -- which exacerbates the above mentioned problem. Basically, after the very first thrust, all your spearmen in the front row become punching bags, just standing there and taking a hit, or defending with the shield, and unable to damage the enemies in any way.

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Not only that, but let's say... some enemy cavalries got stuck in the pike formation. The spear/pikemen would never get back to the bracing stance again and I mean the whole formation. They all try to both eliminate the enemies in the ranks and to get back in the old formation before doing anything else. They would try those so hard that they forget about another wave of cavalry charge coming. So a clean charge coming through all the way of the formation actually helps the spear formation than the cavalry. Because then the spearmen would re-organize and brace again.

kweassa said:

Now, to add insult to injury, there is the third and final problem. In real life, it is entirely possible that enemies may come inside the range of the front row's spears. But in real spear formations, the second and third rows also put there spears forward. Those that make it past the first row of spears, when closing in, meet the spears from the second and third row. In case of Macedonian phalanges, spears up to the fifth row are all pointed forward. Currently, the spearmen in the second and third rows, all have their spear attacks BLOCKED by the shields of the front row. The second and third rows of spears and pikes add nothing to the attack.

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Hm... Do you think it is possible to adjust the formation a bit like creating some gaps so that other ranks can thrust without being blocked? Or the dev could expand the brace formation of pikemen a bit. Creating a different animation than what is implemented currently. The animation and formation should look like Macedonian phalanges for example. With that custom formation, there would be no more blocking by the first row.

kweassa said:

Now, some mods, attempt to fix this by making spears thrust faster + tweak physical collisions to allow the second row spears to also thrust forward. But what can be observed in those mods, is that the spearmen do become stronger, and win fights where they would normally lose -- but still with way too many casualties. If you observe the demonstration videos of such mods, you can see that the spearmen do win fights, but it still does NOTHING to prevent the enemies from just walking inside range. Basically, what the mods do is make it a bit easier for the spearmen to at least duke it out with better odds, but still most of them fail to remedy the issue that the spears cannot enforce their reach advantage. This is why spear troops at even tier 5~6 levels, are generally considered to be not worth the effort to train and maintain.

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IRL, just by pointing spears ahead is enough to stop infantry from pushing themselves into pointy points. Again, maybe a new stance and proper phalanges formation can solve this? Let's say the stance is you pointing the spear in front of you. You can move but only slowly. You can thrust pretty quick but because it is quick, the damage is not really big (unless a horse charge right into your spear). Infantry can clip into your spear and move in between your thrust animations. But then again, there are other guys in the formation thrusting too so approaching the formation in the front would not be easy. Would this implementation create a somewhat solid front line for spear formation?

AngryPanCake said:

I thought HA were terrible at landing hits.
I usually pursue touted enemies with horse archers (I make them "Follow me") and I slowly move behind fleeing enemies so they can finish them up. My HA loose volley after volley at fleeing looters in order to kill 3-4 of them!

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HA are terrible at landing hit at one man. But when they surrounded a formation, they just need to aim at the general direction of that big blob of infantry to have a chance to hit someone. That seems logical, no complaints here.

However, the HA formation is also a big blob running around in circle. I can also do the same trick with a bow. If I want to hit someone in that formation. I just need to aim a bit ahead of the formation to compensate for the speed of the HA formation. I can reliably hit HA formation that way. Sounds logical too, right?

But the AI foot archers just couldn't seem to reliably land a hit at that big blob of formation. My doubt is that they do not compensate for the speed of the horses when aiming. So I made a custom battle between HA and fians. I tried to pause many times to take a look at the shot from the fians. This is what I found:

Can you see the arrow that was shot out by one fian in the middle? Imagine its trajectory. I am 99.999999% sure that it would hit the ground. Instead of aiming at the "head" of the formation, this guy aimed at the "tail". Why?

Ananda_The_Destroyer said:

Ranged troops suck at shooting horse archers. Being still is supposed to have more accuracy then moving, but in bannerlord it much easier for horse archers to land stray hit all over a formation then for 10X as many ranged units to shoot the horse archers. I makes every fight against khuzait like 2 fights that takes the time of 10 fights. I get so bored and tired of it, have to move every one to the back left, every one face direction, oh here they come please shoot at them, okay not other group get behind them, okay now other groups move on top of them.... it's like a puzzle game every battle to just make you troops kill the ****ing horse archers.

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I second that. The archer's AI is having trouble with hitting horse archers even with fians and sharpshooters.

There are ways to make foot archers hit horse archers such as using cavalry to slow horse archers down or using corner of the map or using hills. It boils down to slowing horses down. So I think foot archers have a big problem shooting fast moving objects. But wait, shouldn't moving object hard to hit? Yes, but this is a very big blob of moving objects moving in a circle at the same speed. I have no problem hitting a big blob of horse archers moving in circle around me. The AI, however, will waste ammo shooting at nothing unless there are some interferences. I tested this in custom battles.

So the most reliable ways to help foot archers is to use cavalry to interfere with the orbit of horse archers. Just hope that there are not too many Khan guards in the enemy's formation. Because they will eat cavalry or any other unit for breakfast.

LuciusDomitiusAurelianus said:

Great post OP, really good stuff. Just finished some studies on the beginning of the Ming Dyansty and the state China was in post-Mongol conquest (which didn't last too long, TLDR = Small Ice Age go brrrr) - so this is very interesting.

Honestly, spears need a ton of work. The grip on them halfway down is ridiculous, attack and recoil speed are too slow, and they should have a pushback effect. The physics for it are already in game, would be interesting to debuff it by weight, i.e. if I push a spear blow into some jerk with a shield they should be knocked down but trying to do it to a heavily armored knight shouldn't have that high of a chance. Basically RNG for knockdown after a "roll" against the weight - likely a Switch statement or some other way to have if/else logic without bogging down a simulation or battle.

Right now we have too much blending of weapon types and nothing is particularly specialized. And even if you make the argument that spears are specialized anti-cav 1) it doesnt show in AI 2) the animations and speed are still way too slow, you'll get mowed down without nearly perfect timing.

I get the MP argument, but I don't care, I don't play MP at all. Keep the nerf **** over there

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The thing about Multiplayers mode is it is more about 1 vs 1 more than fighting in formation. So right now polearms (the thrusting kinds, not the swinging ones) are not good 1 vs 1. But are they at least good to use in a formation? Also no.

Your post really scratches that itch of mine.

Just one custom battles using spear/pike units and the problem with them can be seen. They are too slow. With a pointy stick pointing out like sword and spear, a thrust should be the fastest attack. I think not only spear but thrust attack in general is slow. Any unit with spear whether infantry or cavalry is only good at the initial contact/charge. After that, spear becomes a burden.

Swinging polearms like glaive , on the other hand, are moving at Mach 5 speed when attacking and dealing absurd damage. Making Khan's guard an extremely powerful melee calvary and infantry (and horse archer too). I tested Khan's guard with every top tier cavalries in custom battle. They won every time in melee mode with minimal lost. So what is the difference between Khan's guard and other cavalries? Swigging vs thrusting polearms. If that does not spell unbalanced I do not know what is.

Even in formation, spear units are at a disadvantage. First of all, their attacks are easily blocked by friendlies and enemy alike in tight situation. At least swinging weapons have overhead attack in tight situation. Second of all, spear bracing is so bad. Sure, it kills some enemies cavs at the initial charge. And then the infantry lose the bracing stance (Why TW? Why?). Keep the stance upon impact, allow pikemen to move (slowly) while bracing, and allow them to thrust while bracing. Those will make the front of pikemen more durable against both cavalry and infantry.

In conclusion, thrusting weapons are not fun to use both for the AI and myself (With the exception of couch lance on horse imo). While swinging weapons, especially swinging polearms, are good for... well... everything. Buff the speed as well as the formation for thrusting spear/weapon is what I am saying.